Talk:Kannada

Phonology table

Hi, I am not a native Kannada speaker. I am just interested in many languages, Kannada being one of them. One thing I have noticed about this page is that it lacks a phonological table listing the vowels and the consonants in Kannada. I would like to suggest that two phonological tables be added, one for vowels and another for consonants. I found this one on the Gujarati language: Gujarati letters, diacritics, and digits. I think a similar one can be done for the Kannada language, showing all the sounds (with distinctions for aspiration and voicing), romanisation as well as the letters. I think it would be helpful to those who want to learn more about the Kannada language Also, it would not hurt to place the traditional Kannada numbers here on this page (prominently, outside of the Unicode table) as well. Please do share your thoughts on this subject Razr99 (talk) 04:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Kannada native speakers distribution map :

Hi Crystallizedcarbon, Kwamikagami and All, I have uploaded native Kannada speakers map KannadaNaduWikiMap.png.

Distribution of Kannada native speakers, majority regions in Orange and minority regions in Yellow.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KannadaNaduWikiMap.png

Please update it to this Kannada language wiki-article once agreed. If any one has any concern, please let me know here. Regards, NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 15:02, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@NitinBhargava2016: Hello, and thank you for your contributions, if there are no objections I will make the change myself on Thursday.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:13, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@NitinBhargava2016:  Done --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

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@ 117.206.82.9 : The map is based on facts - Justice Mahajan committee report, Reorganisation of Indian states on linguistic basis, Bombay and Madras Gazetteers of British period, study of ground realities having visited these border areas. https://msblc.maharashtra.gov.in/pdf/newpdf/next20/MAHARASHTRA%20IN%20MAPS.pdf - maps and linguistic details on page numbers - 172 to 175. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/bibliographic/bmcatalogs/Z7049.I31T3B8.pdf - the districts and their sizes represented here are those of the article's period (19th century) and not the present district sizes or location or position - page numbers 3 to 4. https://archive.org/stream/rosettaproject_tam_detail-2 - Tamil http://dsal.uchicago.edu/books/lsi/lsi.php?volume=4&pages=701#page/412/mode/1up - pages - 362 to 405. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Volume 4 [1] The Madras Journal of Literature and Science, Volume 7 [2] The Journal [afterw.] The Madras journal of literature and science [3] It is clearly mentioned that Kannada extends from Sadashivgad [to the North of Kali river of Karwar], to the West of Belagavi, Kagal and almost near Kolhapur city itself. [4] It includes Solapur city, Bidar, Raichur, Mantralayam, West Anantapur district, Hindupur, etc., leaving only a very narrow strip of North East corner of undivided Kolar district (Mysore Kingdom) to Telugu.

Kannada is the sole official language of Karnataka. However, arrangements are there to learn Tulu, Kodava and Konkani and literary academies have been established for the same. Historically, Konkanis are not native to Karnataka. Except for Karwar town and to its North, they are not in a majority anywhere in Karnataka. Konkanis fleeing Bijapur Adil Shahi capture of Goa were again settled in Karnataka. Konkani people fleeing Portuguese Christian inquisition and persecution were given refuge by Vijayanagara Empire to settle in Kannada lands. It is said that 50% of Goa had taken refuge in Karwar during that period. Many of them didn't return back. Others settled throughout Kanara coast and in Kozhikode, Kochi and Thiruvanantapuram in Kerala. Hence, demography of Karwar was changed forever. Even to this day, thousands of native Goan Kannadiga community called 'Komarpant' live in Goa and neighbouring areas.

Tulu is spoken from the Kallianpuri river near Udupi to the Chandragiri river of Kasaragod, called Tulunadu. Here too, Kannadigas form 15-20% of the population. Konkanis-15%, Tulu-50% and rest, Beary, Koraga, etc., In Udupi taluk, Kannada speakers form 40%, Tulu-45%, rest - Beary, Konkani, etc. Kundagannada, Havyagannada, Arebhashe and other Kannada dialects are spoken in Tulu Nadu and in the coastal and MaleNadu (hilly) regions of Karnataka.

Kodava Takk - spoken by 29% of population of Kodagu. Also, Surlabbi and Kigatt dialects of Kodava are very close to Kannada. Kodava speakers are not in a majority in Kodagu. Although Kannada speakers form 60% of Kodagu, they are conversant in Kodava too. Rest of Kodagu consists of Malayalam and Dakhini speaking migrants.

Ballari Telugu population are not natives, but economic migrants from British Madras presidency's Telugu districts, Madras regiment at Ballari and the armies of Vijayanagara empire of Aravidu dynasty after Sri Krishnadevaraya's reign.

Similarly, Marathis of Belagavi are not the natives, but the recent economic migrants of British Bombay province, as also the 'Maratha' regiment stationed there by the British. Shahji Bhonsle and his son, Shivaji Maharaj's 'Maval' and guerrilla ​warfare techniques (which involved building forts on hills, protecting them and attacking enemies from them, finally desert the forts if defeated) opposing Bijapur Adil Shahis, Ahmednagar's Nizam Shahis, Mughals and Siddhis of Janjira continued by his descendants and Peshwas against Mysore Wodeyars and then Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan, continued unabated from 1630s-1818 CE, brought a lot of Marathi soldiers to Karnataka's Sahyadris or Western Ghats, MaleNadu and even plains who settled there. This made the Kannada areas slowly turn in to Marathi areas as Marathi was imposed by the administration forcefully and Kannada was not encouraged. Later, under British Bombay province, Marathis were given preference in all jobs and Marathi was imposed on Kannadigas from 1818-1956 CE. Thus Khanapur (near Belagavi), is now Marathi majority. Also, Kannada lost Kolhapur to Marathi. Even to this day Solapur is surrounded by Kannada speaking villages to its North and West too for 8kms as propounded by Smt. Jayadevi Tayi Ligade of Solapur in her works, but is given to Maharashtra wrongly. Thanks,NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 13:27, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

On which basis you are speaking this? Konkanis are native to north Canara along with other part of konkan(Read kadamba history properly),also read history about foreign trading post and connection of konkanis with that. The fleeing group settled in Tulunadu .when coming to marathi keep in mind about their empire and up to where they ruled. Tulu is native to coastal also it is called tulunadu. kadava takk is language of kodagu . Truth trumps (talk) 20:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

All these are facts and citations with valid references. Komarpant are native Goan Kannadigas. Kannada speakers form more than 7% of Goan population. Refer Kannada history by Kasaragod's Govinda Pai, Kannada's 1st Rashtra Kavi, a Konkani himself. Kadambas of Banavasi (Uttara Kannada) were Kannada rulers who ruled over Konkan, Goa, Karnataka, South Maharashtra and adjacent areas. Konkanis are the natives of Goa or Gomantak Prant and Konkan all the way up to Daman and Surat. They are in a majority in Goa, Sindhudurg (Malvani) and South Ratnagiri (Chitpavani, Daldi, Bardeskari, etc.,). Kadodi, Katkari, Varli, Phugadi, etc., are Konkani dialects spoken throughout Konkan. They were not native to Uttara Kannada. They have been assimilated by the native Kannadigas like their own kin. As per R. Narasimhacharya, Tulu, Kodava, Toda, Kota, Badaga and Irula are all Kannada dialects due to their closeness to Kannada.

Other references : http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/pager.html?objectid=DS405.1.I34_V09_307.gif, http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/text.html?objectid=DS405.1.I34_V09_307.gif, https://books.google.co.in/books?id=zXBB1nZYoLIC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=wilks+skirts+anantapur&source=bl&ots=0F_ZCO4jxB&sig=rloA621hjPyjNtI9LU3wNerS_iA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQoMXb0t7LAhUNCo4KHceFAh0Q6AEIIzAC#v=snippet&q=Kannada&f=false, https://books.google.co.in/books?id=_RG2x2xDQ5UC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=wilks+skirts+anantapur&source=bl&ots=gfsIRp7X-J&sig=-EyfphbGNkOBL07uIdZGm3Cryb4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQoMXb0t7LAhUNCo4KHceFAh0Q6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=wilks%20skirts%20anantapur&f=false, http://indpaedia.com/ind/index.php/Carnatic, https://archive.org/stream/cu31924071131605#page/n459/mode/2up, http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/bitstream/1/2046073/1/34324.pdf, https://books.google.com/books?id=owHmI3qi_BIC&pg=PR25&lpg=PR25&dq=deglur+canarese&source=bl&ots=Qz4n7e1A1Y&sig=eGCZt_K-1pprldxDtdWFItR1MsY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixkOjwzo7QAhVCqY8KHZVDApcQ6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q=canarese&f=false. NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 08:34, 4 November 2016 (UTC) NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 15:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Dubious:History

I find that the entire history section appears to be a irredentist view on Kannada's history.

First dubious claim: "Aristophanes and Euripides (5th-4th century BCE): The great Greek dramatists of the 5th-4th century BCE, particularly Euripides and Aristophanes, appear to have been familiar with the Kannada country and the Kannada language, and had actually used Kannada phrases and expressions in the dialogues of their characters along with Persian and Punic. This shows a far more intimate contact of the Greeks with Kannada culture than with Indian culture elsewhere."

The website and webpage promoting this is extremely sketchy, riddled with errors, filled with uncitable and unprovable claims, and is written by people with an obvious COI

Second dubious claim: "Alexandria (Egypt) (4th century BCE): Doddarange Gowda has claimed to have stumbled upon a piece of evidence in the Egyptian city of Alexandria that proves the existence of Kannada in 4th century BCE. He said that he had personally seen the Kannada word 'Ooralli' (lit in a village) written on a huge wall constructed in Alexandria by ancient Greek ruler Alexander the Great in 4th century BCE. The Kannada word ‘Ooralli’ is part of the remnants of 36,000 palm manuscripts that had been burnt in an accidental fire during Alexander’s time. When the accidental fire destroyed much of the palm manuscripts, Alexander ordered his commanders to erect a huge wall so that the remnants can be magnified and reproduced on it. The palm manuscripts contained texts written not only in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, but also Sanskrit and Kannada."

The person making the claim is not an expert in Kannada history. In addition, I find it extremely unlikely that he would be able to make out text written in Brahmi or Ancient Greek, as it wouldn't be written in the Modern Kannada script. Also, he is making a speech to an Kannada audience. It's extremely likely that he himself is biased, as I cannot find any other source that suggests the same.

Up until the farce, ironically enough, the section remains a farce. The entire section up to there is a copy paste of reference 40. Reference 41 doesn't actually support the assertion made in that paragraph. If anything it may prove the opposite, seeing as how /ai/ and /aj/ are regularly changed to /e:/ in Prakit languages. This is the marker of ridiculity. Either get better sources or delete the unsupported assertions. Qwed117 (talk) 02:12, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Kannada history, source is by K. Appadurai, linguistic scholar, website URL being archived (which is still accessible on Internet) is not a reason for removal. Its not a website, it is a book on Kannada and Tamil in Indian nationalism, published by INTAMM, 1997. The writer is a Tamil scholar and can be least of all, biased. Request Qwed117 to do some home work before commenting like 'website and webpage promoting this is extremely sketchy, riddled with errors, filled with uncitable and unprovable claims, and is written by people with an obvious COI', 'entire history section appears to be a irredentist view on Kannada's history.', 'The person making the claim is not an expert in Kannada history. In addition, I find it extremely unlikely that he would be able to make out text written in Brahmi or Ancient Greek, as it wouldn't be written in the Modern Kannada script. Also, he is making a speech to an Kannada audience. It's extremely likely that he himself is biased' and 'Up until the farce, ironically enough, the section remains a farce.'! Hope user knows difference between the two 'farces'. Doddarange Gowda is a noted Kannada poet, professor, anthologist, writer, scholar of many languages. Please stop such biased comments. Check the facts thoroughly before commenting.

Hi Ergative rlt,

All of the above prove that obviously fringe biased claims are Qwed117's, and not otherwise. Sources do not fail WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:COPYVIO or any other Wiki rules. They are made by linguistic experts Annadurai and Doddarange Gowda. Hence, reverting your edits. Please let me know if you feel otherwise.

Thanks,

NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 20:32, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not believe that the section has been adequately addressed by your remarks. I do agree with some of the statements in your paragraph, namely that he is a scholar on Tamil, Kannada and several other Indian languages. Nonetheless, that doesn't change the fact that this is a word for word reprint of http://storyofkannada.blogspot.in/2009/04/greece-and-kannada-in-classical-era.html#.V0JZk5ErJhF . While the article has been sourced, the unfortunate fact is that the article itself has no sources for its unproven thoughts. Encyclopedia Britannica suggests that the earliest known Kannada writing is from 450 AD. In addition http://languages.iloveindia.com/kannada.html states that "The early (pre 800AD) bits and pieces of Kannada literature are insufficient to lay claims to the literature's origins". Gowda is not able to make the claim as he is not, repeat not, a linguist. He is a professor of Kannada, yes, as well as a poet and writer, but he, quite notable is not an anthropologist, cryptologist, linguist nor is he versed outside of Kannada. Even so, I would still need more evidence (preferably not circling back to him) to verify his claims. In conclusion, the decision to delete, and the decision to revert the deletion were both premature. It is preferable if the current sources were augmented with ones more trustworthy. They violate WP:COPYVIO and WP:UNDUE, but should be edited so that they do not violate. There is no reason to erupt in argument. In addition, {{Tamil-Kannada_Languages}} suggests that at 500 BC ~ 300 BC, Tamil and Kannada were differentiating dialects of one langauge, meaning that data from that era should mainly refer to Tamil-Kannada, or Tamil, seeing as how Kannada is slightly more divergent. The COI still exists in the original source. I would again, prefer if namecalling here is kept to a minimum. Irredentism is still present, and lastly, farce is both a term for a type of play and a discussion meant to produce a one-sided result. Toodles, Qwed117 (talk) 01:59, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Contradictory figures for speakers.

Sources http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indiaspeak-English-is-our-2nd-language/articleshow/5680962.cms and http://www.ethnologue.com/19/language/kan/, used by the infobox and lead respectively, give different numbers for total speakers: 50.8 vs 46.7, yet they both claim to be based on the 2001 census. It's not a huge difference, but still. If there is a more recent survey, it would probably be a good idea to use that instead. — Gamall Wednesday Ida (t · c) 13:28, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Inaccurate/inflammatory statements

I don't know enough about the topic to correct it, but it seems like the phrase "StopKannadaImposition" and the numerous references to "Telugannada" are not related to this article in any way. Not sure what to do in regards to this, so please discuss what should be done. MunchieM (talk) 01:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Earliest history

The article's History section (permalink) starts out like this:

Poorvada Halagannada or Purva Halagannada (Pre-Old Kannada) is a Kannada term which literally translated means "Previous form of Old Kannada" which is dated by scholars from the early days of 1st century AD to the 8th century AD. It was the language of Banavasi in the late ancient period, the Satavahana, Chutu Satakarni (Naga) and Kadamba periods and thus has a history of over 2500 years.

References

In principle, if a statement in a Wikipedia article is armoured by a long string of references, this almost always indicates that the statement is utter nonsense. Sadly, that appears to be the case here as well. In a large part, that's because of an IP edit from 2016 [5] that changed the years from 2,000 to 2,500 (strange that this didn't get noticed in all the subsequent editing and expansion of the section). But there are further issues, so let's look at the refs cited.

The cryptic ref #4 appears to refer to a 2001 reprint of A concise history of Karnataka : from pre-historic times to the present by Suryanath U. Kamath, a source that I don't have access to. Neither can I get hold of ref #1, so if anyone has these two and is willing to fact-check, please let that be known. Ref #5 is the 1897 Mysore Gazetteer, so it's too old and unreliable. Ref #6, judging from the Google Books link, doesn't have any relevant content on the page cited (but the following page does have a mention of the 5th-century epigraphy); it's also published by Lulu, so it's almost certainly not a reliable source (see WP:RSP#Lulu.com). Both #3 and #8 are easily accessible on Google Books. What can be seen is that #3 says nothing at all about the language (the cited page only enumerates the ruling dynasties of the time), while the only relevant thing on the cited page of ref #8 is the statement that the 6th-century Chalukyas were Kannada speakers.

That leaves only #2 and #7 with any coverage that's relevant here. Ref #7 is Thirumaleshwara Bhat's 1993 Govinda Pai (ISBN 978-81-7201-540-4), which is a biographical study of the writer Govinda Pai. I'm not sure how useful that can be for our purposes, but it does contain the statement on the whole [Pai's] view that Kannada must have been as old as the Christian era has been accepted, but also a lengthy commentary on how this is not the case for his identification with Kannada of the various Dravidian words in Prakrit or Greek texts from before the 5th century. Ref #2 is a very detailed study of early Tamil epigraphy. The author lists (on pp. 108-9) a number of words or grammatical features found in some of the inscriptions in the period 2nd century BC to 4th century AD that he identifies as being due to the influence of Old Kannada. This is significant and definitely deserves mention in the Wikipedia article, but per WP:PRIMARY, we also need to see how that's been received in the secondary sources. In particular, I can see how this can be subjected to the same criticism that Bhat reports having been levied on Pai: how do we know this is Kannada and not another related language? (from a quick glance, I don't see anything to suggest that Mahadevan's "Kannada" isn't a shorthand for "coming from a Dravidian source that's closer to Kannada than to Tamil".

From all I've seen so far, there's agreement about only one thing: that the earliest Kannada inscriptions are from the middle of the 5th century AD. The possible earlier attestations of the language, on the other hand, appear to be subject to debate. – Uanfala (talk) 19:17, 26 November 2022 (UTC)