Talk:Tláloc

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Matlolcueitl

• The reference to Matlolcueitl was removed because 1) "She of the Jade Skirt" is the Chalchiuhtlicue and 2) I could find no reference to Matlolcueitl which wasn't itself a reference to this page. Corrections welcome. -- Dystopos 19:03, 28 November 2004 (UTC)

her name is Matlalcueitl with an a instead of the o.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 19:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The picture

• The picture is REALLY FREAKY!

• I think the original artwork depiction of Tlaloc is rather good, but that a PD Pre-Columbian depiction would be more appropriate. Other thoughts? -- Infrogmation 21:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that a Pre-Columbian depiction would be more appropriate. I looked myself -- not extensively but I looked -- when this drawing was posted. I couldn't find anything that was not copyrighted (understandably) and I couldn't even pull up a good "fair use" image. Also, note that a JPG was pulled earlier this year for copyright problem. Someone did add a link at the bottom, which helps somewhat. In the end, my thoughts were that this drawing was better than no drawing. -- Madman 00:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Teotihuacan

• How can you possibly know if sacrifices were done to the rain god by the Teotihuacanos? Wasn't Teotihuacan occupied during classic period? -- Tlalocatecútli 14:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You are right, we know nothing of the content of teotihuacano ritual practice - it is also incorrect to say that depictions of tlaloc are found in teotihuacan since that implies that thy spoke nahuatl something that is not at all certain. They may have had a completely different name for their raingod.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 19:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Derivation

• I have read that Tláloc is short for Tlalocatecútli - agglutination in Náhuatl of the stem words tlál(li) - earth, ócan - paradise and tecútli - lord. This literally means that Tláloc is the lord of Tlalócan, the wattery paradise beneath the earth. Is this correct? -- Tlalocatecútli 14:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Where did you read this? The derivation seems quite likely, though the assumption that its literal meaning is also a religious meaning is suspect. If you can provide a citation, we can add the etymology and its reference to the article. --Dystopos 22:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

it is the reverse: Tlalocatectli is a longer version of tlalolc. Tlalocatecutli means "lord of tlalocan" - tlalocan means "place of tlaloc" - the meaning of the word tlaloc is not well understood but is often interpreted as "that which lies on the ground" ie. rain.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 19:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"also known as Nuhualpilli"

• According to who? I can't find this in any of my many books about the Mexicans. -- Tlalocatecútli 17:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• The name Nuhualpilli is used in reference to Tlaloc in the Song of Tlaloc from the Florentine Codex. Although referenced as the name of the god of stone workers, it is, indeed, on of Tlaloc's names. 02:18, -- 71.56.236.98 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• if so it is a typo: nahuatl has no u vowel. Indeed a google search for "nuhualpilli" returns only hits on wikipedia and mirrors. I remain unconvinced of tlaloc having such an epithet.·Maunus· tlahtōlli 19:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

If Náhuatl has no u vowel then what's the u doing in the word Náhuatl? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.67.161.139 (talk) 03:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

It is representing the consonant sound of a w. It is pronounced NA-watl not na-HOO-atl·Maunus· tlahtōlli 07:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

please cease inserting the supposed epithet nuhualpilli: classical nahuatl can simply not form such a word. The sourcing presented is from a non specialist website that includes unsourced statements it cannot functio as a reliable source. Unless new documentation is provided I will keep reverting the insertion of "nuhualpilli" it is simply an unsourced statement.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"Tlaloc in El Savador?"

Since he was the MEXICAN rain god how could he have been worshiped in El Salvador? Do they speak Náhuatl down there? I don't think so but maybe some similar Uto-Aztecan language like Náhuat. All Meso-American cultures have a similar rain god like like Cocijo (Miztec), Tajin (Totonac) or Chac (Mayan). Is this really correct? -- Tlalocatecútli 21:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Nahuatl-related languages were (and are still) spoken in areas of mid-Central America, and a number of peoples with cultures and traditions closely linked to those common to the central mexican plateaux were living in the Salvadoran region by at least Postclassic times; see for eg Pipil, whose language Nawat is indeed Uto-Aztecan. Classical Nahuatl was also quite a lingua franca of the region and traders, and considerable traffic and migration along the Pacific Guatemalan coast into the Salvadoran region from the Mexican uplands ensured a dynamic cultural exchange between these two separated areas.--cjllw | TALK 00:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

God of Lightning?

According to The Aztecs - People of the Sun by Alphonso Caso, Tlaloc is also the god of lightning so the text that said so should have remained.216.67.161.230 16:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Tlalocatecútli

Yes indeed, Tlaloc also had association with lightning and thunder, and quite a few other phenomena associated with water- storms, flood, etc. Can easily be readded (was it removed?)

Article also needs some rework to emphasise Tlaloc's significance to central mexican precolumbian cultures generally, and not just the Aztec/Mexica who were only relatively recent newcomers on the scene.--cjllw | TALK 23:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

About the name Nahualpilli...

For those of you who can't seem to find the reference to "Nahualpilli" being one of Tlaloc's names, please see Book II "The Ceremonies" of Sahagun's Florentine Codex, specifically "Tlalloc. icujc" (The Song of Tlaloc). Also, see Sullivan's _Scattering of Jades_. Likewise, Oliver's _Mockeries and Metamorphoses_, while primarly about Tezcatlipoca, also discusses this name in relation to Tlaloc. In fact, I've yet to see a Mesoamerican scholar discount Nahualpilli as one of Tlaloc's titles. Honestly, this is very basic scholarship, and this issue should've been resolved a long time ago. If such a word can never exist in classic Nahuatl, then why did Thelma Sullivan ever bother? She was only one of the greatest Nahuatl linguists that ever lived.

I'd furthermore like to ask why this article mentions nothing in depth of Tlaloc's cave/mountain associations, lightning associations, appearances in mythology (with citation), astronomical associations (as per the Borgia, etc), his pre-Aztec history or his ties with warfare. And how about a real iconography discussion? Really, this article is of exceptionally low quality at the moment, and requires much improvement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.103.215 (talk) 01:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC).