Talk:Spanish Civil War

Infobox commanders and leaders again

Having read the discussion above I wonder whether there is any official WP “policy” or whatever (“guidelines”, “recommendations” etc) as to who should be listed among “leaders and commanders” in infoboxes of articles on wars and battles. Currently the assortment of people listed appears to be a fairly disputable selection to me (as to the point above, I believe Lister should be out). Please let me share my thoughts.

Republicans:

There are obvious must-be people:

• Azaña (president of the Republic)
• Largo Caballero (prime minister)
• Negrin (prime minister)
• Rojo (central military commander)
• Miaja (central military commander)

However, among the rest none appears a must-be:

name	role	my suggestion
Prieto	minister of war from May 1937 till Apr 1938, also minister of air & navy from Sep 1936 till May 1937. Besides, one of PSOE leaders with major impact on party policy and policy-making in the Republican zone. After spring of 1938 barely relevant	in
Casado	key protagonist behind the March 1939 coup, which had enormous impact on war developments. Besides this, he was commanding at the army level (March 1938 - March 1939), but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox (Army of Extremadura: Joaquín Pérez Salas, Ricardo Burillo, Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Antonio Escobar Huerta, Army of Andalusia: Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Domingo Moriones Larraga, Francisco Menoyo Baños, Army of Levante: Juan Hernández Saravia, Leopoldo Menéndez López)	in
Companys	President of Catalan autonomous government throughout the entire war, though with decreasing decision-making capacity. However, he was an important player within the Republican coalition almost until the end (except 2 final months)	in
Aguirre	President of Basque autonomous government, effectively in power in only 1 out of 3 Basque provinces and only between Oct 1936 and June 1937. Later, because he commanded no resources, his political role was negligible	out
Martínez Cabrera	Yes, he was the chief of staff, but effectively merely for 3 months (mid-November 1936 till mid-Feb 1937) and is not known for having any impact on war developments. Manuel Matallana, who was also chief of general staff since late 1938, is not listed in the infobox	out
Modesto	Commanding at the army level from August 1938 till March 1939, but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox	out
Hernández Saravia	He was the minister of war during one month, between Aug and Sep 1936, and his impact on war developments was close to naught (also Luis Castelló Pantoja was briefly minister of war, but is not in the infobox). Later he briefly commanded Army of the South, again with little impact and again, there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox	out
Durruti	Though an iconic person among the Anarchists of then and today, he barely classifies among “commanders and leaders”. In terms of command, he briefly (July – Nov 1936) led loose troops of few thousand people, comparable perhaps to a regiment. In terms of political leadership, the Anarchists were led by García Oliver, who is missing in the infobox	out
Ascaso	Barely known for any military role, politically in Aug 1936 – Aug 1937 he led Regional Defense Council of Aragon, a local governing body, and then became a non-person. Between August 1936 and October 1937 a certain Belarmino Tomas was president of the local Asturias Council/Committee, a semi-sovereign body which certainly governed more people than the Aragon Council, but Tomas is out from the infobox	out

Also, there are some individuals which might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox, though I would leave them out:

• Giral (prime minister July to Sep 1936)
• Garcia Oliver (Anarchist leader, with major impact, CNT-FAI is listed among "Belligerents")
• Diaz (Communist leader, with major impact)
• Matallana (chief of staff; if Martínez Cabrera is in, Matallano also should be)
• Buiza (commander of Republican navy)
• Hidalgo de Cisneros (commander of Republican air force)
• Castelló Pantoja (minister of war in Giral government)

Nationalists:

Undisputable candidates are few:

• Franco (since Oct 1936 supreme military commander and head of state, de facto leader)
• Queipo (leading southern troops throughout the entire war)
• Mola (leading northern troops from July 1936 till June 1937)
• Davila (leading northern troops from June 1937 till March 1939, minister of war from Jan 1938 onwards)

and now the doubtful ones:

name	role	my suggestion
Sanjurjo	pre-agreed leader of the coup, but died in aviation accident before the coup well unfolded. A must-be in an article on conspiracy, and perhaps in an article on a coup, but not on the war	out
Yague	commander of various military formations, from a "column" to a corps, but never above this level (never commanded an army), even though in the summer of 1936 his military role was vital. However, even commanders at the army level among Nationalist are out (Centre: Saliquet, Levante: Orgaz)	out
Cabanellas	president of makeshift rebel executive between July and September 1936. Leader of the coup in Aragon, apart from this no major military role. Anyway since mid-1937 seriously ill, died 1938	out
Varela	since mid-war commanded formations comparable to a corps, but never above this level. Rather minor political role due to his monarchist leaning and loose links to Carlism	out
Goded	led the coup in Barcelona, captured in July 1936 and executed. An imporant person in an article on the coup, but totally out of place among war leaders and commanders	out
Hedilla	following imprisonment of Jose Antonio provisional leader of Falange, one of 2 most important political groupings supporting the rebels. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. Anyway, even this minor role was over in April 1937, when arrested, tried and totally marginalised	out
Fal	political leader of the Carlists, one of 2 most important political groupings in the rebel zone. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. In December 1936 arrested and exiled, later merely on sidelines of wartime politics, with no impact and decision-making capacity whatsoever	out
Roatta	commander of CTV between Sep 1936 and Aug 1937. CTV was 35-50,000 people, so comparable to a strong corps or a weak army, but other army commanders are generally not listed, either in the Republican or the Nationalist rubric	out
Bastico	commander of CTV between Aug and Oct 1937. 3 months of command seems a bit short to merit a place in the infobox, especially that CTV was a merely one of many corps	out
Sperle	commander of Legion Condor, Nazi airforce group which formed perhaps the most important component of the Nationalist aviation. However, it was just one of many components, and Sperle commanded it merely from Sep 1936 till Oct 1937. If he is in, why the following Condor commanders, Volkmann (Nov 1937 - Oct 1938) and Richthoffen (Oct 1938 - March 1939) are out?	out

As to individuals who might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox (again, I would leave all of them out):

• NN - chief of General Staff (Jefe de Estado Mayor del Cuartel General - but who was he? have never found out)
• Berti (CTV commander from late 1937 till end of the war, if Roatta and Bastico are in he should be in as well)
• Kindelan (head of Nationalist aviation)
• Moreno Fernandez (head of Nationalist navy)
• Serrano Súñer (key Franco political adviser and to some extent decision-maker, minister of interior Jan 1938 till the end)
• Volkmann (Condor commander, if Sperle is in he should be as well)
• Richthoffen (Condor commander, if Sperle is in he should be as well)
• Orgaz (head of Army of Levant)
• Saliquet (head of Army of Centre, member of Junta de Defensa)
• Ponte (member of Junta de Defensa)
• Gil (member of Junta de Defensa)

In case of both Republicans and Nationalists some names seem derived from "Belligerents" section of the infobox, i.e. the logic being that each "belligerent party" deserves its leader to be listed. First, I do not think so. Then, "belligerents" also contains a fairly nonsensical selection, e.g. there is "Army of Africa" among the Nationalists (what about all other armies, and navy, and airforce) and there is POUM among the Republicans (and PCE, far more important, is missing), let alone that "Germany" and "Italy" are listed among Nationalist belligerents, while the USSR is not listed among the Republican ones. But perhaps targeting the "Belligerents" section is the task to do once we are done with this.

Final general comment: I believe stuffing the infobox with 15 "commanders and leaders" on each side is an overkill. To my taste, 5-6 would be perfectly OK. rgds, --Hh1718 (talk) 13:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@Hh1718: Figured this deserved a response, as you've clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it. I don't think having a lot of commanders in the infobox is overkill, as this war is incredibly multi-faceted; neither the Republicans nor the Nationalists were easily reduced to a few commanders, locales or factions. But I do agree that it should probably be trimmed back a bit and I broadly agree with most of the points made here. The only two removals I would disagree with are:

• Agirre: He was a pretty big figure in the Basque country's efforts and the northern front in the war. I think you need some representation of that effort in there, even if not necessarily Agirre himself.
• Durruti: While his scope of action was obviously limited to the beginning of the war, I'd argue his role was an absolutely vital commander in that phase of the war. This was during a period where the Republican state functionally didn't exist and Durruti was one who led the militia system during this time, not to mention his leading role in defeating the coup in Barcelona.

--Grnrchst (talk) 11:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Greece

On November 17, 2023, an anonymous user with IP (109.242.250.254) pointing to Greece edited the “Foreign Involvement” section. The edit consisted of moving the “Greece” sub-sub-section from the sub-section “Support for the Republicans” to the newly-created sub-section “Neutrality”. No rationale has been provided either in Comments or in talk page and not a single word has been added to the text.

• First, creating a sub-section “Neutrality” within a section “Foreign Involvement” seems rather dubious to me. If so, I would expect to find chapters about Britain and France, who actively pursued a neutralist policy, though I am still not sure this classifies as “involvement”; to me, it rather seems to be an effort not to get involved and prevent the others from getting involved. Finding just a section on Greece seems totally odd, as among other countries Greece seemed hardly active when pursuing the non-intervention policy.

• Second, the chapter on Greece – which I have written myself down to a single dot, and have placed in the “Support for the Republicans” sub-section – rather clearly demonstrates that in practical terms, the Greek support for the Republicans was far greater than assistance provided to the Nationalists. The data available is for 1937 only, and it is $10.9m worth of supplies to the Republicans and $2.7m to the Nationalists. Moreover, we know about other contracts, signed in 1938, which featured expected deliveries to the Republicans of some $10m (not sure what was actually delivered) and none such info for supplies to the Nationalists. To my reasoning, all this supports the opinion of Greece having been de facto the Republican supporter, even though formally the Athens government declared non-involvement. And if you prefer to take governmental declarations as the key criterion, probably we would have to classify also Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as “neutrals”.

Placing Greece back in the “Support for the Republicans” sub-section.

rgds, --Hh1718 (talk) 09:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Concern re: use of Payne & Palacios

I just went through the article and found that we have a fair amount of information cited to Franco: A Personal and Political Biography, a hagiography written by the American historian Stanley G. Payne and Spanish neo-Nazi Jesús Palacios Tapias. While I am not the biggest fan of Payne, I don't doubt the scholarly integrity of his earlier work and think it could contribute to a well-balanced article that gives due weight to different perspectives. But I don't extend the same assumption of good faith to his work with Palacios, which I think is a rather questionable source, to say the least.

The introduction of information from this source has brought in some very dubious claims: i.e. that the Republican Left tried to annul the 1933 election; that Mola had no role in the White Terror; and that Republicans "conducted more indiscriminate air raids on cities and civilian targets than the Nationalists". I have not seen such claims supported in any other source I have available to me, so I worry this amounts to flat-out historical revisionism. I can say for certain that Mola was a chief proponent of the White Terror (see Preston 2006); and I find the suggestion that the Republicans had the capacity to out-do the nationalists on air raids laughable, given the infamously terrible capabilities of the Spanish Republican Air Force (see Beevor 1982).

I have already provided in-text attribution to these claims, but I don't think this goes far enough. Given this would be a bold move, I wanted to bring it up in the talk page to seek consensus first: I think we should remove this source from the article altogether. I don't think it's a remotely reliable source and think this article actively suffers from its inclusion. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The claim that the Republican Left tried to annul the 1933 election is from Payne, not from Palacios, Payne has made this claim in several of his books. See for example "Alcala Zamora and the failure of the Spanish Republic, 1931-1936" [1]. There are other historians making the same claim. Example: Enrique Aguilar Gavilán says that the socialists went even further in their desire to change the election results. Juan Negrín, on behalf of his parliamentary group, urged Mr. Niceto Alcala Zamora, the President, to immediately cancel the election results and form a new government led by left-wing republicans, which would prepare a new electoral law. [2]. Aguilar Gavilan uses the book "Alcalá Zamora, Niceto: Memorias, Barcelona 1977, pp. 258-259" as the primary source. J Pratas (talk) 21:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into that! I have now removed the dubious tag on that claim, but dubious tags are still in place for the other two claims I mentioned. I'm still inclined towards removing the Payne & Palacios source from the article. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

lois and reachael

spanishcivil wal r 217.161.97.163 (talk) 09:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)