Talk:Croatia

GAR

Croatia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delist as doesn't meet GA criteria 2 or 3 (insufficient citations and lack of recent updates). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Article has "This section needs to be updated" tags in five sections: Economy, Transport, Demographics, Education, Sports, and As of 2019, the Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and European Integration employed 1,381[needs update]. It also has "needs additional citations for verification" tag for Sports, and a 'citation needed' in Healthcare section. 'clarification needed' is in Independent Croatia (1991–present) section. With 6 big orange templates article needs work to remain a GA. Artem.G (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

• Slightly longer than preferable, and with some oversubsectioning. However, overall not a bad article as far as country articles go, hopefully this can be fixed. CMD (talk) 07:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
• Delist: sections need to be updated, while citations are needed in selected places. As CMD noted, should be fairly easy to get back to GA standard, should someone wish to. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Location within Europe

@Šaholjubac, please dispute the long-standing description ("at the crossroads of Southeast and Central Europe") here on the talk page and see whether there is consensus for your change ("at the crossroads of Central and Southern Europe"). What's not objective with "Southeast Europe"? Even the respected Croatian Encyclopedia uses it (article link):

Hrvatska (Republika Hrvatska), država u jugoistočnoj Europi [...] Ovisno o prevladavajuće prirodnim, geopolitičkim, povijesnim ili kulturnim kriterijima, u cijelosti ju se svrstava u Južnu, Jugoistočnu ili Srednju Europu. [...] Tranzitni prometni položaj proizlazi iz geografskoga položaja na dodiru jugoistočnoga, središnjeg i južnoga (mediteranskoga) dijela Europe [...]

Translation:

Croatia (Republic of Croatia), a country in Southeastern Europe [...] Depending on the predominant natural, geopolitical, historical or cultural criteria, it can be classified in its entirety as Southern, Southeastern or Central Europe. [...] The transit traffic position results from the geographical position at the junction of the southeastern, central and southern (Mediterranean) parts of Europe [...]

Ministry of Tourism and Sports (Croatia) says Croatia is part of Southeast Europe (article link):

Regija jugoistočne Europe sa šest zemalja, među kojima je i Hrvatska [...]

Translation:

Southeastern Europe region with six countries, including Croatia [...]

There are numerous articles that can be found on Google Scholar which confirm the SEE grouping of Croatia, amongst many that describe why is it contentious in the first place, of course. For example, original scientific article Balkan u hrvatskim udžbenicima povijesti za osnovnu školu ("The Balkans in Croatian history textbooks for elementary school") says this (article link):

O Balkanu se stoga često govorilo, a gotovo svaki njegov spomen izazivao je izrazito negativne asocijacije, budući da je označavao nešto civilizacijski drugačije i zaostalije. Kada je Hrvatska nakon 2000. godine zašla u razdoblje europskih integracija, a nova politička realnost počela zahtijevati regionalnu suradnju, pojmom »Jugoistočna Europa« htjelo se pokazati da je regija kojoj i Hrvatska pripada, dio Europe.

Translation:

The Balkans were therefore often talked about, and almost every mention of it evoked extremely negative associations, since it denoted something civilizationally different and more backward. When Croatia entered the period of European integration after 2000, and the new political reality began to demand regional cooperation, the term "Southeastern Europe" was used to show that the region to which Croatia also belongs is part of Europe.

For whom exactly is this location descriptor not objective? Why should we not use it? –Vipz (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

When reading up on this the sources generally referred to Crossroads as in cultural exchange.... problem now in the lead it sounds geographical. Should be mentioned in the culture section.Moxy- 20:05, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Culturally and politically, Croatia belongs to Western culture and Western World (what cannot be said about our eastern and southeastern neighbors), that is, to Central Europe. Moreover, its deep connection with Italy, the Vatican and Austria places it "more western" than, for example, Poland and Slovakia. Since the fall of the Roman Empire, Croatia belonged to the West. Croats accepted Christianity, later they opted for Catholicism. Croatia is a Mediterranean country, located in southern Central Europe. For God's sake, look how long we've been part of Italy! Šaholjubac (talk) 14:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

"Mediterranean country located at the crossroads of southern Central Europe and the Balkans."

I think this is a precise description and I hope you agree. The term "Southeast Europe" is very recent and vague. Šaholjubac (talk) 15:53, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the proposed description. "Mediterranean" is very vague, it just says "somewhere around the Mediterranean Sea". "Balkans" is being readily phased out in favor of "Southeast Europe" (SEE) all throughout reliable sources, being more formal, precise and on point. We're discussing how to describe location of the country, not where it 'belongs' culturally or politically. –Vipz (talk) 16:33, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem lies in the fact that many sources are contradictory and you are well aware of that. Therefore, in order to meet halfway, we need to make a consensus here on Wikipedia. The term "Central Europe" is equally a geographical, cultural and political term, so it is not possible to state only the location of a country that, according to many sources, belongs to Central Europe, as well as the Mediterranean Europe and the Balkans. Šaholjubac (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

By the way, please refrain from applying your proposed changes beforehand. The old, long-standing description should stay until a consensus for a new description develops here. –Vipz (talk) 16:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Croatia. –Vipz (talk) 16:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• I like the southern central and Balkans description, that matches most closely what sources say and common usage. I don't like this use of "crossroads" though. By definition a crossroads is something that pertains to roads, e.g. the east-west and the north-south highways, not to regions. I would simply say it's a state of southern central Europe and the Balkans, and leave it at that...  — Amakuru (talk) 17:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  Even though "crossroads" is associated with intersections of actual roads, I think you get its meaning from the context. If there's a better word, please put it forward. "southern central Europe and the Balkans" is not in common usage in reliable sources, but please prove me wrong. –Vipz (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

@Šaholjubac:, the term Southeast/Southeastern Europe was already defined and used by the mid-19th century (Diana Mishkova - "Balkans/Southeastern Europe", in European Regions and Boundaries, 2017), while the term Balkans got popularized due to Ottoman period and Serbian academia influence. In the late 20th and especially from the beginning of the 21st century, the term Balkans is rapidly replaced by the term Southeastern Europe. Among other academic liteature, see The Routledge Handbook of Balkan and Southeast European History (2021) - a region that was previously known as the Balkans but is now better known as Southeastern Europe. If we're going to be accurate, Croatia is a Southeastern European country - because Southeastern Europe, in narrow and broad definition, is at a crossroad between Eastern, Central and Southern/Mediterranean Europe - or a Southeastern European country at a crossroad between Central and Southern/Mediterranean Europe. It never was or its regions completely part of Central or Southern/Mediterranean Europe. Croatian Encyclopedia's article about Croatia is completely accurate stating that Croatia is a Southeastern European country.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Location and a closer look at enciklopedija.hr

"It is located at the intersection of three natural entities: the Pannonian Lowlands (Lowland or Pannonian Croatia; about 55% of the territory), the Dinarides (Mountain or Dinaric Croatia; about 30%) and the Mediterranean (Coastal or Adriatic Croatia; about 15%). In the social and cultural sense, the Croatian area is influenced by three cultural-civilization circles with partly different and partly related religious, linguistic and ethnic characteristics: Mediterranean in the coastal part, Central European in the continental part and, to a lesser extent, Southeastern European (Balkan) in the Dinaric part. Depending on the prevailing natural, geopolitical, historical or cultural criteria, it is classified as a whole in Southern, Southeastern or Central Europe."

Central Europe is equally cultural as well as geographical term!

• Citing Croatian Wikipedia: "Croatia (official name: Republic of Croatia) is a European country, in the geopolitical sense a Central European and Mediterranean country."

• Citing Croatia.eu: "Croatia has been present on the contemporary international political stage since its independence from the Yugoslav Federation, i.e. for three decades, but is one of the oldest European countries in terms of history and culture. The present-day territory of Croatia and its borders were formed through a long period of history, during which the Croatian nation, whether independent or incorporated in various state communities, constantly displayed national and political subjectivity. The geopolitical situation of Croatia is determined, therefore, by the convergence and influence of different ethnic, religious, economic and political factors. With respect to the complex position of the country, Croatian authors usually define it as Central European and Mediterranean."

• Citing migracije.hr: "Croatia (officially the Republic of Croatia) is a European country, which is part of the Central and Eastern Europe in geopolitical sense and is geographically located in the southern part of Central Europe and in the northern part of the Mediterranean."

• Citing Britannica: "The territory of Croatia bridges the central European and Mediterranean worlds, and its history has been marked by this position as a borderland. It lay near the division between the two halves of the Roman Empire and between their Byzantine and Frankish successors."

We need agreement on this. Šaholjubac (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

What you quoted from Croatian Encyclopedia describes various areas of social and cultural influence within Croatia, not its geographical location/placement/position/definition. Again, we are looking for the country's geographical position, not a political, social, cultural, ethnic, religious, economic, etc. one.

• User-generated sources including Wikipedia (Croatian or otherwise) are strictly unreliable; citing Wikipedia on Wikipedia falls under WP:CIRCULAR sourcing.
• Croatia.eu describes Croatia's "geopolitical situation"; with politics in play, this is not a purely geographical definition. Furthermore, the source's definition doesn't provide a broader viewpoint than that of Croatian authors, which do not carry any more WP:WEIGHT than authors from anywhere else in the world.
• Migracije.hr is dedicated to information about migration relevant to Croatians. General information on the country's location, whether geopolitical or geographical, is not within its area of expertise.
• Britannica's article on Croatia says Croatia, country located in the northwestern part of the Balkan Peninsula. Sadly, this seems to be all it has to say about the country's location.

I'm looking forward to consensus that the first sentence of the article should strictly pertain to geography. And I hope you realize that edit-warring is not the way forward, because you are essentially forcing your version without reaching any sort of consensus. –Vipz (talk) 19:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't completely agree. Central Europe is a cultural as well as a geographical term.

I genuinely hope you (and majority of readers) are satisfied with the description. Croatia is really located at the crossroads of Central Europe and the Mediterranean, (purely) geographically located on the Balkan Peninsula (see the description of the geographical location of Greece).

Croatia's territory has an unusual appearance, which is why, a geographically small country, stretches on three sides of Europe: central (northern and central Croatia), Mediterranean (coastal Croatia) and Balkan (backland of Dalmatia). Slavonia belongs to both Central and Southeastern Europe (Balkan), which cannot be said for the rest of the country, and that is also the reason why it is ungrateful to describe the geographical location of Croatia in one (short) sentence, so I think that the opening sentence is completely appropriate and economical.

Once again, I hope you agree, as do our readers. Šaholjubac (talk) 12:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I thought it was already evident that in fact I don't agree, as don't several other editors you keep reverting when they restore the previous wording (@Andymxm, @Karaynn). My stances toward (against) "Mediterranean" and "Balkan" have not changed since we discussed them in the section above (§ Location within Europe). The opening sentence of the article is meant to be brief (MOS:LEADSENTENCE). Anything else about Croatia's geographical specifities can go to the section § Geography. Although I like the longer version ("at the crossroads of Southeast and Central Europe"), I'm also fine with "in Central and Southeast Europe" (as most recently put forward by @Wrehhn). –Vipz (talk) 10:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I think I'll start a WP:RfC soon to bring about wider and more thorough participation. –Vipz (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Crossroads or confluence

On the page about Switzerland it says that the country is "at the confluence of Western, Central and Southern Europe". I think the word "confluence" should replace the current word "crossroads", a somewhat inappropriate word for this need.

To my way of thinking, that word is more appropriate both geographically and geopolitically because it seems that Western, Southern and Central Europe are as much geographical as they are geopolitical terms. Šaholjubac (talk) 12:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

We need a stronger consensus — Does Croatia belongs to southern Central Europe

Why do you persistently place Croatia in Southeastern Europe, while Poland, Slovakia and Hungary are placed in Central Europe? These countries are geographically substantially further east than Croatia, and also culturally, Croatia belong to the Central European and Mediterranean cultural circle, while the three countries mentioned above have strong geopolitical and historical ties with Eastern European countries such as Belarus, Ukraine and Romania. Šaholjubac (talk) 22:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)