Talk:Afonso, Prince of Beira

I have a small question. If Afonso is the Prince of Beira, how can he be and Infante? If he is a prince he is not an infante, right? Isn't the tite infante inadequate for the eldest son of the monarch (in this case, pretender)? If you see Felipe, Prince of Asturias his article starts with Don Felipe, Prince of Asturias, while his sister's article starts with The Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo. Joaopais 05:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• The current Prince of Portugal is D. Duarte Pio. If he become king then Afonso will be Prince and not Infante.Câmara 12:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• Duarte Pio is Royal Prince, because he is the first in the line of succession.
• Afonso is Infante and is Prince of Beira because he is the second in the line of succesion.

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Describing monarchial ties

The Portuguese monarchy was deposed in 1910, a fact I had to look up because this article describes Afonso as a "prince," and as "first in the line of succession to the Portuguese Crown." There is no longer any such monarchy, nor does such a line of succession exist. Does he himself use these titles? Are they recognized in any formal or ceremonial manner? I know that this issue isn't unique to this person; this is just the Wikipedia article I was reading when I thought about it. I think the article should address the actual circumstances of his upbringing--like did his parents have careers outside of being deposed monarchs? Does he fulfil any duties as "prince"? I can try to look into it, but is there any objection to decreasing the article's deference to his supposed titles? --DavidK93 (talk) 01:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 January 2024

Afonso, Prince of Beira → Afonso de Bragança – Portuguese monarchy no longer exists (and hasnt for over 100 years) as User:DavidK93 notes above and Wikipedia should not act as if it does. As per WP:NCROY defunct titles should not be used. D1551D3N7 (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Support - WP:NCROY does not say that defunct titles should not be used, but that they should only be used when they are in common usage (eg. Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples, not Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia). I don't know what the English WP:COMMONNAME is here, but it looks like most cited sources use the proposed name. estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Against - common usage includes his title. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 20:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:53, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  Many of the sources for the article don't use his title

  Afonso

  https://www.flash.pt/atualidade/nacional/detalhe/como-eles-cresceram-filhos-de-d-duarte-arrasam-no-baile-de-dubutantes-em-paris

  Afonso de Bragança

  https://caras.pt/realeza/2010-04-02-afonso-de-braganca-celebra-aniversario-e-apadrinha-prova-equestre-na-comporta/

  https://ointerior.pt/regiao/afonso-de-braganca-em-acao-de-reflorestacao-na-cova-da-beira/

  https://caras.sapo.pt/realeza/portugal/2014-09-11-Afonso-filho-dos-duques-de-Braganca-investido-liurai-numa-visita-a-Timor

  Afonso de Santa Maria Herédia de Bragança

  https://www.vidas.pt/a-ferver/detalhe/afonso-de-braganca-consagrado-principe-herdeiro D1551D3N7 (talk) 16:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per WP:COMMONNAME. As Wikipedia:Article titles says, Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. US Weekly calls him "Prince Afonso of Beira". It is the only one English news source that has ever mentioned the article subject and so it is the only one that matters. Also, any argument about monarchy is WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:OR and should be automatically discarded by the closer. --StellarHalo (talk) 10:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

  Are we really going to use a US Weekly article about "22 of the Hottest Male Royals and Princes Around the World" as justification for pretending that Portugal is a monarchy? You have to be joking. D1551D3N7 (talk) 15:48, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody is pretending that Portugal is a monarchy. That has nothing to do with the common name of an individual, the title they choose to use or the way they are referred to by others. You say above: As per WP:NCROY defunct titles should not be used. I'm sure you have actually read it and you do know really that's not what it actually says. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:07, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

  If you are going to just lie about what I said and could not come up with an argument that is actually relevant, please do not reply. StellarHalo (talk) 18:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: counter proposal that we rename the article to Afonso de Bragança, Prince of Beira, Afonso de Bragança is his full name and keep the current title. Diogo Costa (talk) 17:47, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Keep the name in line with foreign pages/titles e.g. Name, Followed by Current Title (Afonso, Prince of Beira). Thisismarcelo (talk) 13:40, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Support The singular English-language source cannot be said to reflect a "majority" of sources, leaving us to rely on the names used in the broader pool of Portuguese-language sources. There is mixed usage of "Prince of Beira" vs "de Bragança," and the usage of "Prince of Beira" comes mainly from sources associated directly with the Braganças. In my opinion, this fails to clear the deliberately high bar set by WP:NCROY to justify the use of a defunct title. --DavidK93 (talk) 09:17, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

• WP:NCROY dedicates a section to the simple directive, "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use." Notably, it says "reliable sources," which includes non-English sources. Other parts of the guideline make specific reference to English-language usage, and this passage explicitly does not. The singular proposed English-language source, Us Magazine, is not actually cited in the article, and for good reason; an article based on it would read, in its entirety, "Afonso, Prince of Beira (fl. May 4, 2023), is one of the hottest male royals and princes globally and is unmarried." Looking at the other sources, everything that looks like a mainstream or traditional news source calls him "Afonso de Bragança." References to "Prince of Beira" come either directly from the Braganças themselves (on their social media, or in reporting that repeats the proper name "Prince of Beira Prize" that the Braganças themselves gave to the prize they endowed) or from various royalist organizations. It's clear to me that the sources using "Prince of Beira" do not constitute "a majority of reliable sources," but rather a biased grouping of sources that are poorer sources than those using "de Bragança." --DavidK93 (talk) 09:17, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose: In line with other translated pages of pretenders, keep "Afonso, Prince of Beira", as a way of keeping coherence. If you change this "title" here, you will have to change everyone else that is a pretender. So, therefore, due to Afonso being known as "Prince of Beira" abroad, I propose that the name remains unchanged. GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 09:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose: Second counter argument (and continuation of above): If you change the name here, you will have to change all the other world pretenders names that have e.g."name", followed by "current title in pretense". Therefore, for the sake of not discriminating one person over the other, I propose to keep things as they are. GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 10:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)