Talk:Detransition: Difference between revisions
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== "Forced detransition" section == |
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It seems to me like the section titled "forced detransition" isn't actually, necessarily about forcing people to ''de''transition so much as ''preventing'' or ''making it more difficult'' for people to transition ''in the first place''. It seems like this section (and its subsections) need to be either retitled, reframed or moved into a separate (perhaps preexisting) article. If this weren't such a sensitive subject, I might've made the edits on my own but figured it best to pose the issue to the community first. [[User:Denniscabrams|Dennis C. Abrams]] ([[User talk:Denniscabrams|talk]]) 19:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:What do the sources say? [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 20:40, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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: Preventing someone from transitioning or making it difficult is most definitely forced detransition. There are many advocates who use this exact phrase in referring to this. There is no need to rename the section. -[[User:TenorTwelve|TenorTwelve]] ([[User talk:TenorTwelve|talk]]) 04:38, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::But how can someone "detransition" if they weren't allowed to transition in the first place? [[User:Denniscabrams|Dennis C. Abrams]] ([[User talk:Denniscabrams|talk]]) 18:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::It does both at the same time. Someone else later in transition would be affected by the same legislation. It wouldn’t just impact people who “haven’t” transitioned. Also, not all of transition is medical. Some is social. Some people socially transition before medically transitioning. Someone might be transitioning and is prevented from further transitioning. That is also a forced detransition, if partial. And often, the intent behind the legislation is to detransition trans people. -[[User:TenorTwelve|TenorTwelve]] ([[User talk:TenorTwelve|talk]]) 23:26, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Detransition and regret == |
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This article describes the flaws in the conclusion of previous studies that ‘only 1%’ has regret. |
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Can somebody adapt the main text? The info is not correct. |
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346 |
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[[Special:Contributions/84.83.131.154|84.83.131.154]] ([[User talk:84.83.131.154|talk]]) 09:05, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:When you did surgeory you cannot retransition and best to do then is to stay trans. But you can still have regret. YouTube is full of examples like that. |
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:Many of the studies are confusing detransition during transition with regret. Regret is after complete transition, not during. Of course you can also regret during, but the issue is the post-regretters. |
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:To get a good view, you need long term research. Many studies check after a few years. Those are the years of [[gender euphoria]]. The hangover appears after the party though. |
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:Many studies lose contact with ex-patients. They move, or don’t want to participate or died. Therefore the noise in the % is significant and ‘only 1%’ is always a false conclusion. The noise is easily 10-30%. It is naieve to think the leftovers will score equal to the ones that have disappeared. |
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:[[Special:Contributions/84.83.131.154|84.83.131.154]] ([[User talk:84.83.131.154|talk]]) 09:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:No, we can not include that article. |
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:# On medical articles like this, we have strict sourcing requirements ([[WP:MEDRS]]). We should be using the highest quality peer-reviewed articles summarizing the current state of research. This article is not a peer-reviewed summary but an {{tq|Article Commentary}}, an unreviewed primary source. |
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:# This was funded by the [[Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine]], a [[WP:FRINGE]] advocacy group, and written by members of the same. To quote some researchers from the Yale School of Medicine: {{tq|The long list of citations omits mainstream scientific articles that do not support the SEGM agenda, and the list includes a large number of letters to the editor, which are not peer-reviewed or fact-checked,114 as well as other sources of little scientific value, including opinion pieces and case studies.}} and {{tq|[SEGM]'s 4 core members are a small group of repeat players in anti-trans activities – a fact that the SEGM website does not disclose. These 14 often write letters to the editor of mainstream scientific publications; these letters appear in the list of publications on the website (even though letters to the editor typically are not peer-reviewed or fact-checked). (Our review shows that the group of 14 has a total of 39 relevant publications and that 75% of these are letters to the editor.)}} [https://medicine.yale.edu/lgbtqi/research/gender-affirming-care/biased-science/] |
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:TLDR, this paper is not a [[WP:MEDRS|reliable medical source]] and that is a feature not a bug as it is published by a [[Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine|group known for pushing misinformation]] and avoiding peer-review. Best regards, [[User:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist|Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ]] ([[User talk:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist|talk]]) 17:21, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Is there a word for this? == |
== Is there a word for this? == |
Revision as of 20:29, 6 February 2024
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Is there a word for this?
WP:NOTAFORUM. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC) (non-admin closure) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Wikipedia has an article called Transphobia. Is there a similar kind of word for people who feel that way about detransitioners? SquirrelHill1971 (talk) 04:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
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Rename article to "Retransition"
"Detransition" has a negative connotation and is falling out of favor within much of the trans community. "Retransition" has a more positive and affirming meaning. 98.114.41.189 (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Would need demonstrable RS support. We currently have a separate disambiguation article called Retransition, which explains that the term is variously used to mean either:
- 1. the same thing as detransition
- 2. a subsequent transition following detransition (i.e. resuming transgender identity or presentation)
- To be frank the first sense is completely new to me, although a glance at Google shows some sources preferring it.[1] The majority seem to treat these as two separate terms.
- The current title is less ambiguous for our purpose, so probably not likely to change. –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:23, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- I've since adjusted the body text (diff) to clarify this somewhat. The BMJ source gives the following definition which I think is apt:
–RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:37, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Retransition—Resuming a gender transition following detransition. Some detrans people may use this term to indicate restarting hormone therapy for medical reasons but without re-identifying as transgender. Others may apply this word to refer to re-identifying since initiating a gender transition such as moving from a binary transgender identity to non-binary. Some people prefer retransition to describe stopping or reversing transition.
To be frank the first sense is completely new to me
Me too, and I'm pretty up-to-date on the current terminology. Pretty much the only place I recall offhand is in the second sense, someone who is resuming or restarting a transition after detransitioning.- With some very specific Google searches, I'm only seeing a handful of reliable sources use the term in this sense. I think the BMJ source is enough that we could mention it in the article's body, but there's nowhere near enough usage in this other manner for us to rename the article at this time. I can't seem to find any sources older than late 2022 on this though, so this might well change in the next couple of years.
- On a related note, I'm don't think reference 3 supports the sentence
Some studies use the term retransition rather than detransition.
in the article lead. The only place that source mentions retransition is in reference to Ky Schevers retransition. Is there a better source, ideally an academic source, that we could use there? I don't think the BMJ source that RoxySaunders found would work here either, because that refers to people using the term, not studies. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- I've since adjusted the body text (diff) to clarify this somewhat. The BMJ source gives the following definition which I think is apt:
- Oppose Detransition is the common name for this. Calling this Retransition would be confusing because that can also refer to people who transition again after detransitioning. -TenorTwelve (talk) 08:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Article for transition regret?
This article currently distinguishes detransition from "transition regret", saying for example "The term is distinct from the concept of 'regret'".
Is there already a Wikipedia article for the concept of "transition regret"? Does anyone have thoughts on whether we should establish one?
I was reading the recent article
- Barbee, Harry; Hassan, Bashar; Liang, Fan (27 December 2023). "Postoperative Regret Among Transgender and Gender-Diverse Recipients of Gender-Affirming Surgery". JAMA Surgery. doi:10.1001/jamasurg.2023.6052.
and wondering whether this information could be here, in a regret article, or elsewhere. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:29, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
What are 7,28 participants? (Or: cite note 5 seems just plain wrong)
The text summarizing Detransition#cite note-5 claims that it encompasses 7,28 participants. This is not a number that makes any sense, and it made me want to understand this further.
I checked the referenced page, and it makes even less sense. The authors claim "We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic" but the Wikipedia page says "A systematic review of twenty-seven studies".
I could find no mention of the total number of participants, nor any trace of the authors summarizing the 'regret rate'.
This is a contentious subject and I'm not a well-seasoned editor on Wikipedia, so I do not want to make any changes to the actual page. I don't have any political agenda, but I'd like to see that the facts presented on Wikipedia is correct, so I'm hoping someone else with more confidence in editing this page could step up and fix this. Mag.icus (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
'Forced detransition'
Do any of the sources use this phrase? The phrase 'forced detransition' in the context of these bills implies that medical treatment is a requirement of transitioning, which isn't the case. Suggesting that it is negates the trans identity of all those who transition without medical intervention or counselling services. Globally that's a significant number. 2407:7000:9BF1:4000:69C6:C11:9F81:FA18 (talk) 06:16, 4 February 2024 (UTC)