Talk:Stab-in-the-back myth

Russia section

While the language of Putin's address is somewhat reminiscent of this myth, none of the sources cited actually draw that parallel. Is this an appropriate inclusion? 2600:1014:B1AE:C854:718F:D08A:2B32:D3EA (talk) 03:42, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

No, it really isn't. He's just employing the same idiom (which is a common one across multiple languages) which happened to have been adopted for this conspiracy theory. WP Ludicer (talk) 10:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Background & dictatorship claim

I removed the reference to Germany being a military dictatorship even though there are sources that make the claim. But I haven’t found any that back it up solidly and can rebut the arguments against it that are shown in the actions of the Imperial Reichstag and the chancellor during the war (e.g. the concessions made by the OHL in the Auxiliary Services Act and the passage of the Reichstag Peace Resolution). Three of the most known historians of the era ignore or speak against the dictatorship claim:

Heinrich August Winkler's Der Lange Weg nach Westen Vol. 1 doesn’t mention of a military dictatorship during WWI. Even Frank Tipton, cited in this article in support of a dictatorship, says the exact opposite: "some historians have labeled [it] a military dictatorship", then adds a few paragraphs later: "Nevertheless, although not a dictator, in 1917 and 1918 Ludendorff was unquestionably the most powerful man in Germany." He says nothing about the last 2 chancellors being "puppets". Thomas Nipperdey wrote in Deutsche Geschichte 1866–1918, Band II: Machstaat vor der Demokratie: "Nevertheless, it is misleading to characterize the extraordinary power of the OHL and Ludendorff, especially after the fall of Bethmann Hollweg, simply as a military dictatorship. …  The need to pay attention to internal peace, the functioning relationship with the Majority Social Democrats, to the people's voices, to contain hunger riots and strikes, was clear to the civil Reich leadership as well as to the OHL. The more difficult the war situation became, the more the Reichstag ... gained power as an independent and self-willed institution." (DeepL translation)

Does anyone know of a source that has a good, solid argument for the military dictatorship claim? GHStPaulMN (talk) 15:29, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I see de facto and quasi-dictatorship used for describing the situation, not necessarily that Ludendorff was a sole dictator in style of Caesar. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Added section on military situation, plus claim that German frontier was not crossed

Map showing the Western Front as it stood on 11 November 1918. The German frontier of 1914 had been crossed only in the vicinities of Mulhouse, Château-Salins, and Marieulles in Alsace-Lorraine.

I've added a section on various assessments of the actual military situation in November 1918. I think it is important to provide context to claims made by e.g., Ludendorff as to what the situation actually was. Please review and amend it as appropriate.

In a number of articles we have on this period the claim that the German frontier had not been crossed by Allied forces is made. This is clearly incorrect based on the map of the western front produced by West Point (who presumably are a reliable source for this) showing that the German frontier of 1914 had been crossed in at least 3 places by 11 November. If what is meant is that the frontier of 1869 had not been crossed, well, the relevance of this is not clear - Alsace Lorraine was the German frontier in 1914 and is surely the relevant reference point. I've struck this claim out - the German frontier was crossed, albeit only in a few places and in relatively shallow penetrations. FOARP (talk) 13:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed? See this section on the German economy during World War I. Food shortages throughout the war, widespread severe malnutrition, widespread typhus, shortages of coal, imports cut off by the British blockade, shortages in civilian clothing, shortages of soap, shortages of hot water, reduction of public transportation and street lighting, overcrowded housing in the industrial cities, and little or no recreation due to the closing down of theaters and cabarets. The deterioration of living conditions would result in further deaths and further discontent, regardless of what happened on the battlefield. Dimadick (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

"Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed?" - It matters if the claim is being made, in the voice of Wikipedia, that this was the case, when it was in fact not the case. But more specifically I think the idea is that Germany did not "lose" because of this "fact". Otherwise I largely agree with what you've written. FOARP (talk) 08:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)