Talk:Stab-in-the-back myth: Difference between revisions

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Stab-in-the-back myth was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (May 11, 2015). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Section sizes

Section size for Stab-in-the-back myth (16 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	3,827	3,827
Background	12,376	12,376
Assessments of Germany's situation in late 1918	319	6,465
Contemporary	2,441	2,441
Post-war	3,705	3,705
Development of the myth	9,588	9,588
Antisemitic aspects	6,614	6,614
Aftermath	2,081	3,351
World War II	1,270	1,270
Wagnerian allusions	1,849	1,849
Psychology of belief	1,102	1,102
Equivalents in other countries	35	1,865
United States	1,830	1,830
See also	492	492
References	3,131	3,131
External links	1,329	1,329
Total	51,989	51,989

Added section on military situation, plus claim that German frontier was not crossed

I've added a section on various assessments of the actual military situation in November 1918. I think it is important to provide context to claims made by e.g., Ludendorff as to what the situation actually was. Please review and amend it as appropriate.

In a number of articles we have on this period the claim that the German frontier had not been crossed by Allied forces is made. This is clearly incorrect based on the map of the western front produced by West Point (who presumably are a reliable source for this) showing that the German frontier of 1914 had been crossed in at least 3 places by 11 November. If what is meant is that the frontier of 1869 had not been crossed, well, the relevance of this is not clear - Alsace Lorraine was the German frontier in 1914 and is surely the relevant reference point. I've struck this claim out - the German frontier was crossed, albeit only in a few places and in relatively shallow penetrations. FOARP (talk) 13:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed? See this section on the German economy during World War I. Food shortages throughout the war, widespread severe malnutrition, widespread typhus, shortages of coal, imports cut off by the British blockade, shortages in civilian clothing, shortages of soap, shortages of hot water, reduction of public transportation and street lighting, overcrowded housing in the industrial cities, and little or no recreation due to the closing down of theaters and cabarets. The deterioration of living conditions would result in further deaths and further discontent, regardless of what happened on the battlefield. Dimadick (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed?" - It matters if the claim is being made, in the voice of Wikipedia, that this was the case, when it was in fact not the case. But more specifically I think the idea is that Germany did not "lose" because of this "fact". Otherwise I largely agree with what you've written - reviewing the lead section we possibly under-play the degree to which historians, whilst agreeing that the stab-in-the-back is a myth, do agree that the economic collapse and collapse in morale on the home front was a cause of the German defeat. FOARP (talk) 08:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 In a number of articles we have on this period the claim that the German frontier had not been crossed by Allied forces is made. This is clearly incorrect based on the map of the western front produced by West Point (who presumably are a reliable source for this) showing that the German frontier of 1914 had been crossed in at least 3 places by 11 November. If what is meant is that the frontier of 1869 had not been crossed, well, the relevance of this is not clear - Alsace Lorraine ''was'' the German frontier in 1914 and is surely the relevant reference point. I've struck this claim out - the German frontier was crossed, albeit only in a few places and in relatively shallow penetrations. [[User:FOARP|FOARP]] ([[User talk:FOARP|talk]]) 13:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 :Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed? See this section on the [[History_of_Germany_during_World_War_I#Economy|German economy during World War I]]. Food shortages throughout the war, widespread severe [[malnutrition]], widespread [[typhus]], shortages of coal, imports cut off by the British blockade, shortages in civilian clothing, shortages of soap, shortages of hot water, reduction of public transportation and street lighting, overcrowded housing in the industrial cities, and little or no recreation due to the closing down of [[theaters]] and [[cabarets]]. The deterioration of living conditions would result in further deaths and further discontent, regardless of what happened on the battlefield. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 02:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
-::{{tq|"Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed?"}} - It matters if the claim is being made, in the voice of Wikipedia, that this was the case, when it was in fact not the case. But more specifically I think the idea is that Germany did not "lose" because of this "fact". Otherwise I largely agree with what you've written. [[User:FOARP|FOARP]] ([[User talk:FOARP|talk]]) 08:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+::{{tq|"Does it really matter whether the frontier was crossed?"}} - It matters if the claim is being made, in the voice of Wikipedia, that this was the case, when it was in fact not the case. But more specifically I think the idea is that Germany did not "lose" because of this "fact". Otherwise I largely agree with what you've written - reviewing the lead section we possibly under-play the degree to which historians, whilst agreeing that the stab-in-the-back is a myth, do agree that the economic collapse and collapse in morale on the home front was a cause of the German defeat. [[User:FOARP|FOARP]] ([[User talk:FOARP|talk]]) 08:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)