Talk:Croatia

GAR

Croatia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delist as doesn't meet GA criteria 2 or 3 (insufficient citations and lack of recent updates). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Article has "This section needs to be updated" tags in five sections: Economy, Transport, Demographics, Education, Sports, and As of 2019, the Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and European Integration employed 1,381[needs update]. It also has "needs additional citations for verification" tag for Sports, and a 'citation needed' in Healthcare section. 'clarification needed' is in Independent Croatia (1991–present) section. With 6 big orange templates article needs work to remain a GA. Artem.G (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

• Slightly longer than preferable, and with some oversubsectioning. However, overall not a bad article as far as country articles go, hopefully this can be fixed. CMD (talk) 07:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
• Delist: sections need to be updated, while citations are needed in selected places. As CMD noted, should be fairly easy to get back to GA standard, should someone wish to. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Location within Europe

@Šaholjubac, please dispute the long-standing description ("at the crossroads of Southeast and Central Europe") here on the talk page and see whether there is consensus for your change ("at the crossroads of Central and Southern Europe"). What's not objective with "Southeast Europe"? Even the respected Croatian Encyclopedia uses it (article link):

Hrvatska (Republika Hrvatska), država u jugoistočnoj Europi [...] Ovisno o prevladavajuće prirodnim, geopolitičkim, povijesnim ili kulturnim kriterijima, u cijelosti ju se svrstava u Južnu, Jugoistočnu ili Srednju Europu. [...] Tranzitni prometni položaj proizlazi iz geografskoga položaja na dodiru jugoistočnoga, središnjeg i južnoga (mediteranskoga) dijela Europe [...]

Translation:

Croatia (Republic of Croatia), a country in Southeastern Europe [...] Depending on the predominant natural, geopolitical, historical or cultural criteria, it can be classified in its entirety as Southern, Southeastern or Central Europe. [...] The transit traffic position results from the geographical position at the junction of the southeastern, central and southern (Mediterranean) parts of Europe [...]

Ministry of Tourism and Sports (Croatia) says Croatia is part of Southeast Europe (article link):

Regija jugoistočne Europe sa šest zemalja, među kojima je i Hrvatska [...]

Translation:

Southeastern Europe region with six countries, including Croatia [...]

There are numerous articles that can be found on Google Scholar which confirm the SEE grouping of Croatia, amongst many that describe why is it contentious in the first place, of course. For example, original scientific article Balkan u hrvatskim udžbenicima povijesti za osnovnu školu ("The Balkans in Croatian history textbooks for elementary school") says this (article link):

O Balkanu se stoga često govorilo, a gotovo svaki njegov spomen izazivao je izrazito negativne asocijacije, budući da je označavao nešto civilizacijski drugačije i zaostalije. Kada je Hrvatska nakon 2000. godine zašla u razdoblje europskih integracija, a nova politička realnost počela zahtijevati regionalnu suradnju, pojmom »Jugoistočna Europa« htjelo se pokazati da je regija kojoj i Hrvatska pripada, dio Europe.

Translation:

The Balkans were therefore often talked about, and almost every mention of it evoked extremely negative associations, since it denoted something civilizationally different and more backward. When Croatia entered the period of European integration after 2000, and the new political reality began to demand regional cooperation, the term "Southeastern Europe" was used to show that the region to which Croatia also belongs is part of Europe.

For whom exactly is this location descriptor not objective? Why should we not use it? –Vipz (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

When reading up on this the sources generally referred to Crossroads as in cultural exchange.... problem now in the lead it sounds geographical. Should be mentioned in the culture section.Moxy- 20:05, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Culturally and politically, Croatia belongs to Western culture and Western World (what cannot be said about our eastern and southeastern neighbors), that is, to Central Europe. Moreover, its deep connection with Italy, the Vatican and Austria places it "more western" than, for example, Poland and Slovakia. Since the fall of the Roman Empire, Croatia belonged to the West. Croats accepted Christianity, later they opted for Catholicism. Croatia is a Mediterranean country, located in southern Central Europe. For God's sake, look how long we've been part of Italy! Šaholjubac (talk) 14:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

"Mediterranean country located at the crossroads of southern Central Europe and the Balkans."

I think this is a precise description and I hope you agree. The term "Southeast Europe" is very recent and vague. Šaholjubac (talk) 15:53, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the proposed description. "Mediterranean" is very vague, it just says "somewhere around the Mediterranean Sea". "Balkans" is being readily phased out in favor of "Southeast Europe" (SEE) all throughout reliable sources, being more formal, precise and on point. We're discussing how to describe location of the country, not where it 'belongs' culturally or politically. –Vipz (talk) 16:33, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem lies in the fact that many sources are contradictory and you are well aware of that. Therefore, in order to meet halfway, we need to make a consensus here on Wikipedia. The term "Central Europe" is equally a geographical, cultural and political term, so it is not possible to state only the location of a country that, according to many sources, belongs to Central Europe, as well as the Mediterranean Europe and the Balkans. Šaholjubac (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

By the way, please refrain from applying your proposed changes beforehand. The old, long-standing description should stay until a consensus for a new description develops here. –Vipz (talk) 16:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Croatia. –Vipz (talk) 16:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• I like the southern central and Balkans description, that matches most closely what sources say and common usage. I don't like this use of "crossroads" though. By definition a crossroads is something that pertains to roads, e.g. the east-west and the north-south highways, not to regions. I would simply say it's a state of southern central Europe and the Balkans, and leave it at that...  — Amakuru (talk) 17:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  Even though "crossroads" is associated with intersections of actual roads, I think you get its meaning from the context. If there's a better word, please put it forward. "southern central Europe and the Balkans" is not in common usage in reliable sources, but please prove me wrong. –Vipz (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

@Šaholjubac:, the term Southeast/Southeastern Europe was already defined and used by the mid-19th century (Diana Mishkova - "Balkans/Southeastern Europe", in European Regions and Boundaries, 2017), while the term Balkans got popularized due to Ottoman period and Serbian academia influence. In the late 20th and especially from the beginning of the 21st century, the term Balkans is rapidly replaced by the term Southeastern Europe. Among other academic liteature, see The Routledge Handbook of Balkan and Southeast European History (2021) - a region that was previously known as the Balkans but is now better known as Southeastern Europe. If we're going to be accurate, Croatia is a Southeastern European country - because Southeastern Europe, in narrow and broad definition, is at a crossroad between Eastern, Central and Southern/Mediterranean Europe - or a Southeastern European country at a crossroad between Central and Southern/Mediterranean Europe. It never was or its regions completely part of Central or Southern/Mediterranean Europe. Croatian Encyclopedia's article about Croatia is completely accurate stating that Croatia is a Southeastern European country.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

We need a stronger consensus — Croatia belongs to southern Central Europe

Why do you persistently place Croatia in Southeastern Europe, while Poland, Slovakia and Hungary are placed in Central Europe? These countries are geographically substantially further east than Croatia, and also culturally, Croatia belong to the Central European and Mediterranean cultural circle, while the three countries mentioned above have strong geopolitical and historical ties with Eastern European countries such as Belarus, Ukraine and Romania.

I think that geographically, Slovenia and Croatia should be placed in the same part of Europe. Moreover, they formed the southwest and the Adriatic geat of ​​the Habsburg Monarchy and later of Austria-Hungary. Šaholjubac (talk) 00:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2024

I have found the source for a missing citation. The text is in the second paragraph of the Healthcare section - "There are 119 emergency units in health centres, responding to more than a million calls.[citation needed]". This fact comes from page 535 of the Croatian 2013 statistical yearbook.

This is the full citation: Ostroški, Ljiljana, ed. (December 2013). Statistički ljetopis Republike Hrvatske 2013 [2013 Statistical Yearbook of the Republic of Croatia] (PDF). Statistical Yearbook of the Republic of Croatia (in Croatian and English). Vol. 45. Zagreb: Croatian Bureau of Statistics. ISSN 1334-0638. Retrieved 28 February 2024. Bogbody05 (talk) 19:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks, I'll take your word for it that that's correct.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)