Talk:Minneapolis

Hit a bump

Very sorry, I made one disastrous edit (meant only to change a single word). After starting to ask for help at the Village Pump I realized my error. Taking the rest of the night off. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

It's been an enormous undertaking; enjoy your evening! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2024

I request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, etc):

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ^ⓘ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Not done - The current formatting seems to be clearer and more concise. glman (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, oh it SEEMS to be clearer and more concise, okay. Yeah well I guess that’s the way the cookie crumbles. After all, you have more experience with this sort of stuff. Cleter (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for my sarcasm Cleter (talk) 02:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Not neccesary in my opinion. Its better off if the articles arent strictly uniform for this kind of stuff, I don't believe most readers/editors care enough to do so.

File:WaRei.png WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me File:WaRei.png 20:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment - Might I suggest a compromise? We could potentially combine elements from both formats while also retaining the clarity that the current format offers. For example, we could start with Cleter's proposed format but slightly modify it. Here's a potential revision:

'Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, its population is 429,954. --Svenskbygderna (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

A request please that editors not use "big cities" as a model. Only Featured Articles, of which there are only a few cities (Cleveland, Washington, DC, Boston, Ann Arbor, Michigan). -SusanLesch (talk) 20:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Very well, thank you for letting me know. Cleter (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

. Support - Hey yeah that works, thanks Svenskbygderna! Yeah I can roll with that; in fact if that goes through, I might change cities with past tense population statistics to reflect this change. Cleter (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense to include this in the first sentence. It flows better in the second with the population, and other featured city articles do it that way as well. glman (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Could you please provide examples of such featured city articles? I am suggesting that the most populous city in a state deserves its respective formatting, I understand if other articles aren’t on the top of a state’s population. Cleter (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch lists them one comment above your support. Why is it better to place this in the first sentence rather than the second? Why does it take precedence over the location? glman (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Cleveland and Ann Arbor are not the most populous cities in their respective states (with D.C. not even being in a state). Boston’s example only strengthens my point. Cleter (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment. Cleveland is perhaps the best maintained American city article on Wikipedia. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is: "Cleaveland, Ann Arbon, and Washington D.C. cannot be used as examples in this case. We can use Boston's example to change Minneapolis's lead sentence to what I proposed." Cleter (talk) 23:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat off-topic: does including "officially the City of Minneapolis" bring value here? It's substantially similar to the article name, and forces the words "city" and "Minneapolis" to be repeated. It feels like something that should be reserved for the history section or a new "name" section. We removed it from Milwaukee for similar reasons. See MOS:LEADALT. (Regardless, it also needs a citation to support that it's the official name. The current citation only supports the census' usage of the phrase.) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 19:03, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Ed, I don't understand your comment. Milwaukee is not a featured article. I added a source for you anyway, even though it borders on WP:OVERCITE. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Ed's comment is about the inclusion of the phrase "officially the City of Minneapolis" in the lead section of an article. Ed feels that this phrase may not add value to the lead section because it is similar to the article's name and may lead to unnecessary repetition of words. He suggests that such information could be better placed in the history section or a new section specifically dedicated to the name. Ed also points out that the phrase needs a citation to support its inclusion as the official name. He refers to the Manual of Style MOS:LEADALT to support his argument. Cleter (talk) 23:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch He's discussing removing "City of Minneapolis" entirely. The lead already says "Minneapolis is a city" which is simply restated in sharing the official name. It doesn't make sense to restate unless the official name differs. Several city pages omit the restating, including Ann Arbor. glman (talk) 00:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Woah, entirely? Gee what if we put it on the history section? Cleter (talk) 03:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm pro-removing it. It repeats what can easily be gleaned from the text. It only makes sense when the official name deviates from what can be assumed normally. glman (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

If that’s off topic, why not create a talk page regarding the matter? I support the move of the official name to another section to avoid repetition and clutter in the lead sentence. Cleter (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

This section is discussing the lead sentence, so I figured it fit best here even though it differed from the OP's focus. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I understand now. Thanks, but could we continue the discussion I requested in the first place? Cleter (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

If the concern is clutter, we could also consider moving pronunciation to a footnote, per MOS:PRONPLACEMENT. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:09, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I would also support this. Anything that makes it easier to get a reader past the first sentence is a positive, in my book. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Would that by any chance include my proposed change to make it “the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota? :D Cleter (talk) 03:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Cleter, I have no opinion at this time on your proposal. Someone else is working on the lead and I differ to him.

Thank you for pulling MOS:PRONPLACEMENT out of a hat. I sign on with with Ed and Nikkimaria. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Revival of previous discussion regarding the lead

I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):

Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the state's most populous city. 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 21:26, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Isn't that the current lead you have pasted there? And there are no "standards" that must be followed based off how other articles are written.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 22:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Whoops wrong one 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 23:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Let me try that again 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 23:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Revival of previous discussion regarding the lead

I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ^ⓘ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

First, don't delete my comments when making edits to your comments, especially when I pointed out there's no "standard" that must be followed when writing the lead sentence. Secondly, I disagree with your version, it's not an improvement: the current version that puts "most populous city" after the population number is clearer and better organized when reading.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok I apologize for deleting your comment (which you can revert anyways). there's no "standard" that must be followed when writing the lead sentence yeah I don't believe in a standard either, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't seek improvements to an existing version (after all, that's the point of Wikipedia). Secondly, just how is it better organized? 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I shouldn't have to revert to keep my comments on a talkpage discussion. And the current version avoids the long run-on opening sentence in your version. You don't need to fit everything into one sentence, especially when the following sentence is about the population; that's logically where the "most populous city" fact should be included.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera I agree. glman (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh hey @glman! Long time no see, huh? (Last time I saw you you ghosted 15 days ago in a topic that needed consensus.) 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Cleter, you've been reverted a number of times as well and there was no one who agreed with your version in the previous discussion: you'll have to accept you may not actually change consensus and refrain from making personal attacks against editors who do not agree with you.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera - Agreed. I did not "ghost", but provided my perspective and was done. I still feel that the current format is best, despite the work the user has done to many other articles to "make them better" glman (talk) 15:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera I disagree with your assessment of the lead sentence structure. Combining the information into one sentence is a common and efficient approach in Wikipedia articles for major cities. It provides a clear and concise introduction, which is consistent with the style used in similar entries. 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Climate

Hi, Timothy2b. The old climate data is outdated, and based on averages ending in 1990. I restored current NOWData (1873 to 2023). -SusanLesch (talk) 13:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Yea, I made sure to use the climate average based on 1873 to present. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Timothy2b, instead of edit warring would you mind talking this though on this talk page/ "Standard" 2020 averages are outdated. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• Timothy says there is a "standard for all locations". Hurricane tells me Wikipedia climate is not codified.
• Which is it? Minneapolis is a prototype featured article referred to as a model at WP:USCITIES. We need to get this right. Then editors from other cities won't be swinging in the wind. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi, so there were a couple of problems with the data you put in. The climate normals, which is the period from which the values (be it temperatures, precipitation, etc) are averaged is currently 1991-2020. When it comes to climate, 30-year periods are the ones used, not a whole 150-year period as would be the case if using data from 1873-today. Normally what is done is that the average values, such as the average temperatures are taken from the most recent full 30-year period, which in this case is 1991-2020, while record values, such as each month's record high or low, are taken for that whole period (such as 1873-2023/24 in this case). I noticed also that you put the wrong averages in the wrong places. The NOAA data site can be quite tricky to navigate, and it is difficult to differentiate which is what, so I don't at all blame you for mixing this up. Just for reference, the average high is found by first clicking on "Monthly summarized data" for the station, then writing the time period (in this case 1991-2020), then under "Variable" select "Max temp", and under "Summary" select "Mean". After that hit "Go", and a window will pop up. Scroll down to the bottom of it and next to "Mean" you will find the average high temperature for each month. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask! :)

Still, the data that is in the current climate table is the most up-to-date data there is for a whole 30-year period, and the values have been updated based on the sources listed. Only relative humidity, dew points, and sunshine is based on 1961-1990, since no more recent data is available. The rest of it, including temperatures and precipitation, is all from 1991-2020. Therefore, it does not need editing, and is in the most revised state it can be until the 2001-2030 data comes (which will obviously be quite a while). Timothy2b (talk) 00:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. When you say "When it comes to climate, 30-year periods are the ones used", who says that? We are waiting for 2030 according to who? Sorry I have limited availability this week but will try to stay current on this discussion. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Here is NOAA's own description of it: https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/products/land-based-station/us-climate-normals. Wikipedia also apparently has its own brief article on it called Climatological normal.

It isn't necessarily wrong to have older data, so some places use 1981-2010 as theirs when there is so more recent data, but in the spirit of keeping things as up to date as possible 1991-2020 is the norm if available. What I meant with 2030 was only that since these normals are updated every 10 years, the next set of climate normals will be 2001-2030. Obviously we are still many years from this though.

Something I forgot to mention was that one thing that could at times need updating is the record high or low for specific months, as these do not reflect any sort of average value and can be broken at any point.

If you are interested in climate normals and how to read the data NOAA has on their website, I could write up a guide of sorts on where to find each set of values. I know I struggled quite a bit in figuring everything out to begin with.

I am also not the quickest at replying so don't stress about it. Timothy2b (talk) 10:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi guys. I need to hear from Hurricane and the WikiProject before deciding. Today I wrote to the NWS Twin Cities office. They passed on my question this morning and I'm waiting for an answer. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Before deciding what? And what question did you ask them? Just wondering. Timothy2b (talk) 17:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hurricanehink can you weigh in?

"Deciding what": I have to take a side. We are in the middle of FAR. Climatological normal mentions that normals are not without criticism. Timothy, you are asking me to disregard a specific request from a featured article coordinator to bring climate data up to the present. I asked NWS if NOWData averages are a legitimate solution. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Further, we have to decide whether we want current data. If we want current data we must agree to update it annually, something SandyGeorgia would oppose. I need to know if this decision applies to all FAs or not. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

WMO climate normals has the governing data set I seek. Timothy, you may be relieved to hear that a Minnesota climatologist kindly explained this to me. I'll take care of informing the FA coordinator. Thank you for your patience. You had this right. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Eek, sorry I didn't get back sooner, and sorry I messed things up by including the whole dataset with the averages! I also got a bit of a crash course in climate averages, that we should be using the 1991-2020 period, which incidentally means we only have to update every ten years (unless there are monthly record highs/lows). Thanks Timothy2b and SusanLesch for figuring this out. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

No worries. That's what talk pages are for. I'm relieved that we won't have to update this annually. Thanks again for your help. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply! And you're welcome, and again, if you ever want help with how to find some of the climate values on NOAA's website I'm happy to help. Timothy2b (talk) 15:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

We've made great strides here. If a robot can't do the 2030 update I will be sure to ask you. 😀 Timothy2b, I do hope you'll sign up as a participant in WP:WikiProject Weather. Hurricanehink, I'm afraid I misled you—you did a perfect job but we asked for the wrong thing. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 February 2024

I saw some edits over this weather box, but I do see some changes being needed. Last Monday, Minneapolis recorded a new record high for the month of February (65 F)

Climate data for Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport, Minnesota (1991–2020 normals, extremes 1872–present)
Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Record high °F (°C)	58 (14)	65 (18)	83 (28)	95 (35)	106 (41)	104 (40)	108 (42)	103 (39)	104 (40)	92 (33)	77 (25)	68 (20)	108 (42)
Mean maximum °F (°C)	42.5 (5.8)	46.7 (8.2)	64.7 (18.2)	79.7 (26.5)	88.7 (31.5)	93.3 (34.1)	94.4 (34.7)	91.7 (33.2)	88.3 (31.3)	80.1 (26.7)	62.1 (16.7)	47.1 (8.4)	96.4 (35.8)
Mean daily maximum °F (°C)	23.6 (−4.7)	28.5 (−1.9)	41.7 (5.4)	56.6 (13.7)	69.2 (20.7)	79.0 (26.1)	83.4 (28.6)	80.7 (27.1)	72.9 (22.7)	58.1 (14.5)	41.9 (5.5)	28.8 (−1.8)	55.4 (13.0)
Daily mean °F (°C)	16.2 (−8.8)	20.6 (−6.3)	33.3 (0.7)	47.1 (8.4)	59.5 (15.3)	69.7 (20.9)	74.3 (23.5)	71.8 (22.1)	63.5 (17.5)	49.5 (9.7)	34.8 (1.6)	22.0 (−5.6)	46.9 (8.3)
Mean daily minimum °F (°C)	8.8 (−12.9)	12.7 (−10.7)	24.9 (−3.9)	37.5 (3.1)	49.9 (9.9)	60.4 (15.8)	65.3 (18.5)	62.8 (17.1)	54.2 (12.3)	40.9 (4.9)	27.7 (−2.4)	15.2 (−9.3)	38.4 (3.6)
Mean minimum °F (°C)	−14.7 (−25.9)	−8 (−22)	2.7 (−16.3)	21.9 (−5.6)	35.7 (2.1)	47.3 (8.5)	54.5 (12.5)	52.3 (11.3)	38.2 (3.4)	26.0 (−3.3)	9.2 (−12.7)	−7.1 (−21.7)	−16.9 (−27.2)
Record low °F (°C)	−41 (−41)	−33 (−36)	−32 (−36)	2 (−17)	18 (−8)	34 (1)	43 (6)	39 (4)	26 (−3)	10 (−12)	−25 (−32)	−39 (−39)	−41 (−41)
Average precipitation inches (mm)	0.89 (23)	0.87 (22)	1.68 (43)	2.91 (74)	3.91 (99)	4.58 (116)	4.06 (103)	4.34 (110)	3.02 (77)	2.58 (66)	1.61 (41)	1.17 (30)	31.62 (803)
Average snowfall inches (cm)	11.0 (28)	9.5 (24)	8.2 (21)	3.5 (8.9)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.8 (2.0)	6.8 (17)	11.4 (29)	51.2 (130)
Average precipitation days (≥ 0.01 in)	9.6	7.8	9.0	11.2	12.4	11.8	10.4	9.8	9.3	9.5	8.3	9.7	118.8
Average snowy days (≥ 0.1 in)	9.3	7.3	5.2	2.4	0.1	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.6	4.5	8.8	38.2
Average relative humidity (%)	69.9	69.5	67.4	60.3	60.4	63.8	64.8	67.9	70.7	68.3	72.6	74.1	67.5
Average dew point °F (°C)	4.1 (−15.5)	9.5 (−12.5)	20.7 (−6.3)	31.6 (−0.2)	43.5 (6.4)	54.7 (12.6)	60.1 (15.6)	58.3 (14.6)	49.8 (9.9)	37.9 (3.3)	25.0 (−3.9)	11.1 (−11.6)	33.9 (1.0)
Mean monthly sunshine hours	156.7	178.3	217.5	242.1	295.2	321.9	350.5	307.2	233.2	181.0	112.8	114.3	2,710.7
Percent possible sunshine	55	61	59	60	64	69	74	71	62	53	39	42	59
Average ultraviolet index	1	2	3	5	7	8	8	7	5	3	2	1	4
Source 1: NOAA (relative humidity, dew point and sun 1961–1990)
Source 2: Weather Atlas (UV)

Solids02 (talk) 06:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. I think this is only the second time someone has informed us of a broken weather record in the last 15 years. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Record values can obviously be broken at any time so the table should be updated if that happens. Sadly climate change is only going to make that more frequent.

The reason for the editing changes is discussed in the section above, but should be more or less resolved now. Timothy2b (talk) 10:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

References

New lead

Greetings. As the last step of FAR, the lead needs to be inclusive of all sections in the article. I propose the following. Your comments? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. With a population of 429,954, it is the state's most populous city as of the 2020 census. It occupies both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and the surrounding area are collectively known as the Twin Cities, a metropolitan area home to 3.69 million inhabitants. Minneapolis is built on an artesian aquifer on flat terrain, and is known for cold, snowy winters and warm, humid summers. Nicknamed the "City of Lakes", Minneapolis is abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks, and waterfalls. One of the most extensive public park systems in the US is connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. The site of Minneapolis was originally inhabited by Dakota people. European settlement began along Saint Anthony Falls—the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River—on land north of Fort Snelling. The city's early growth was attributed to its proximity to the fort and the falls providing power for industrial activity. Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century. A Depression-era labor strike brought about federal worker protections. Minneapolis played a role in the development of supercomputers and mobile refrigeration, and is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, and the Target Corporation. Minneapolis offers literary presses and publishers; James Beard award-winning chefs; ethnic museums; and US pond hockey championships. The city's arts institutions include the Minneapolis Institute of Art and the Guthrie Theater. Four professional sports teams play downtown. Prince is survived by his favorite venue, the First Avenue nightclub. Minneapolis is home to the University of Minnesota's main campus. The city's public transport is provided by Metro Transit and the international airport, serving the Twin Cities region, is located towards the south on the city limits. Most of the world's religions are reflected in the city, which upholds more than 50 denominations and religions, and many Minneapolitans are volunteers. Despite its well-regarded quality of life, Minneapolis faces a pressing challenge in the form of stark disparities among its residents—arguably the most critical issue confronting the city in the 21st century. Governed by a mayor-council system, Minneapolis has a political landscape dominated by the Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL), with Jacob Frey serving as mayor since 2018. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC) Sounds like a tourism guide to Minneapolis and not in Encyclopedia tone such as "Favorite son Prince", other things are not significant enough to be in the lead such as the Ojibwe treatment center or "downtown ambassadors greet visitors".  oncamera  (talk page) 23:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC) What do you suggest? The two sentences on DID ambassadors and Red Lake Nation are gone. Prince represents the music section. This is rather challenging to mention every section. Can you help? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC) Oncamera, kindly edit the above in place. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC) The lead does not need to mention every section per MOS:LEAD, just what is important. On Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.  oncamera  (talk page) 16:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC) Right, except we only have about three FAR reviewers still active. One says, "My opinion is: if there's a heading for it in the body, it should be mentioned in the lede, even if only briefly." -SusanLesch (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) That's just their opinion. The lead shouldn't be filled with less important things about city greeters, that's absurd.  oncamera  (talk page) 17:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC) Oncamera, I invite you to improve the lead. The person who was assigned that task hasn't done it, and we are at the end of FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

New lead 2

Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. With a population of 429,954, it is the state's most populous city as of the 2020 census. It occupies both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and the surrounding area are collectively known as the Twin Cities, a metropolitan area home to 3.69 million inhabitants. Minneapolis is built on an artesian aquifer on flat terrain, and is known for cold, snowy winters and warm, humid summers. Nicknamed the "City of Lakes", Minneapolis is abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks, and waterfalls. The city's extensive public park system is connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway.

Dakota people originally inhabited the site of today's Minneapolis. European settlement began north of Fort Snelling along Saint Anthony Falls—the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River. The city's early growth was attributed to its proximity to the fort and the falls providing power for industrial activity. Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century. A Minneapolis Depression-era labor strike brought about federal worker protections. Work in Minneapolis contributed to the computing industry, and the city is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, Target Corporation, and of Thermo King mobile refrigeration.

The city's major arts institutions include the Minneapolis Institute of Art, the Walker Art Center, and the Guthrie Theater. Four professional sports teams play downtown. Prince is survived by his favorite venue, the First Avenue nightclub. Minneapolis is home to the University of Minnesota's main campus. The city's public transport is provided by Metro Transit and the international airport, serving the Twin Cities region, is located towards the south on the city limits.

Residents adhere to more than fifty religions, and thousands choose to volunteer their time. Despite its well-regarded quality of life, Minneapolis faces a pressing challenge in the form of stark disparities among its residents—arguably the most critical issue confronting the city in the 21st century. Governed by a mayor-council system, Minneapolis has a political landscape dominated by the Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL), with Jacob Frey serving as mayor since 2018.

Oncamera, please see what you think of the above. Do you think it's better? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

It's improved. One thing: I've never heard/read anyone be called a "Minneapolitan" and it shows up as a typo on my browser. Can that be simplified to just citizens in the sentence: "and many Minneapolitans choose to volunteer?"  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 22:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Reworded that. (I've heard the Minneapolitan demonym since at least fourth grade.) Anything else? Do you think I can put this in the article now? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oncamera, I tweaked the list of companies. Is this one OK to put in the article? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Cuisines and Sister Cities

Hey everyone! I am planning to make some changes here and these to Minneapolis's page. Please feel free to let me know if I messed up something because this is my first time editing on wikipedia. My plan is to maybe update the different cuisines that have entered (somali, indian, and so on). The list of “sister cities” needs to be updated based on the new information from — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apurnuh (talk • contribs) 23:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Welcome, Apurnuh. Have you considered joining WP:WikiProject Minnesota before jumping in here? Thank you, I agree the sister cities day could be added to the section on Annual events, and I made that change. Caribou Coffee headquarters is in Brooklyn Center not in Minneapolis so I removed that addition. The article already mentions Somali cuisine. Have you considered adding your favorites at Cuisine of Minnesota? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Apurnuh, I'm not sure you got this message here. I moved your thread down to chronological order. Here's a long Help:Talk pages help page. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Apurnuh, I'll try to work in the farmers market. As it is your edit cannot remain here because WP:USCITIES guidelines state that rankings like the one you added are not admissable. I will also remove the link you placed behind the word vaudeville per WP:EL. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Apurnuh, this is a featured article. Wikipedia cannot accept unsourced statements, so I removed the Sculpture Garden. I hope you will look elsewhere for opportunities to edit Wikipedia. It's a long learning curve. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch Thank you! I am sorry if I messed up the article by adding the garden and farmer's market. Thank you for working in the farmer's market if you can! Apurnuh (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Rollerblades

@Magnolia677: Thank you for your edit. I will reword the entry accordingly; please note though, the US Patent Office says the company was incorporated in Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, at least one of the brothers still lives in Waconia. I'm tempted to leave this out. How would you account for the patent office statement? -SusanLesch (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

They probably went to the nearest pattent office. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I removed them. (One of the brothers talks pretty loosely about location, saying that Minneapolis is the hockey capital of the US. He seems to forget about Waconia as I did.) Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Your edits to Dakota history

Excuse me, Magnolia677. There's no improvement after your changes. Why single out one missionary who may have been one of the first White people to see the falls but is known for staying at Mille Lacs Lake nowhere near Minneapolis, and skip over Britain's arrival? In the same stroke, you chopped out every other person. Your edit summary is peculiar, Minneapolis was not the Dakota "homeland". The paragraph you just removed explains that indeed it was. I suggest you read Mni Sota Makoce: The Land of the Dakota by Westerman and White if you have a disagreement with that.

You wrote, This is the only source that specifically mentions Minneapolis. This is sourced content, please discuss. You don't own this article. First, this is ludicrous. Your choice of sources is fine but cannot stand up to those that were already used in this article. Why don't you add yours to Further reading? Works cited gives you dozens of sources that mention Minneapolis. The page you cite says up front, It is a time dominated by the economy of fur trading, first by the French, then the British, and finally Americans. But you chose to skip the British (and for some reason, you chose to cherry pick from a web page instead of reading and digesting the sources we already use). Second, you don't own this article any more than anyone else does.

A reminder of some featured article objectives:

• comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context;
• well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature; claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate;

Why are you trying to make big changes today? We haven't heard anything from you for four months since you asked to include The Fall of Minneapolis on November 20, 2023 -SusanLesch (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Regarding this source, you write: "Your choice of sources is fine but cannot stand up to those that were already used in this article. Why don't you add yours to Further reading?" You were the one who added this source to the article in the first place. Moreover, it specifically mentions Hennepin's observations of the Indigenous people he encountered specifically in Minneapolis (the title of this article). Magnolia677 (talk) 10:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

FYI, Hennepin has been called a crank. The source you cite mentions Minneapolis, just as this one mentions Minneapolis. That doesn't mean we must include it here. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. You added the source, and now that another editor has also used the same source, you don't like it anymore? It doesn't really matter which source gets cited, but Hennepin was the first European to visit Minneapolis, so his comments about what he saw when he arrived are worth mentioning. Finally, what is the relevance of this source? --Magnolia677 (talk) 15:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

My objection was to your interpretation of the source (you erased indigenous history and the arrival of the British). I wondered if you remembered Wikipedia's featured article criteria. And I asked why you made major changes now after four months of silence. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

It's certainly been a while, but as we say in the Delta, I've been busier than a church fan in August...spending time with the Mega Society and the Trump campaign...and have missed much of the discourse here, but Ay, caramba!, in my absence, the Indigenous history of the western United States has mistakenly been presented as the history of the Mini Apple, and an editor believes the City of Lakes is in fact the homeland of the Dakota! Maybe we can all find a compromise and avoid dispute resolution. Thank you! Magnolia677 (talk) 19:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Dakota homeland

@Oncamera: With this edit you changed a section heading from "Dakota people" to "Dakota homeland". This source includes a map of the Dakota traditional territory, and also states--with regard to the "Dakota homeland"--that the Dakota controlled a territory "that stretched from the Upper Mississippi River to the Middle Missouri River". How is it that you view Minneapolis as the Dakota "homeland"? Magnolia677 (talk) 10:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Minneapolis is on Dakota homelands: homeland is a place where a cultural, national, or ethnic identity has formed. See Bdóte - Dakota name for Minneapolis and Saint Paul area, includes origin story of Dakota people and maintains a significant role in Dakota cultural identity.

Numerous maps show an extended territory for the Sioux nation but most early interaction between Europeans and Dakota people took place in the Minneapolis area, which opened the area up for Euro migrations. In formal agreements with the government, the 1805 Treaty of St. Peters, Treaty of Mendota, Treaty of Traverse des Sioux are treaties between Dakota people and the United States, where Minneapolis is located, that include Dakota homelands and historically where Dakota villages were located. The treaties, and later forced exile after the Dakota War of 1862 pushed the majority of Dakota people out of what became Minneapolis.

There's a long history of Europeans engaging with Dakota people in Minneapolis, as you know with your Louis Hennepin edit. Joseph Nicollet also befriended Dakota people there as he created his map with many Dakota placenames. Gideon Hollister Pond and his brother created one of the first Dakota orthographies and dictionaries at Bde Maka Ska which are still in use today. Dakota people don't have origin stories anywhere else but in Minnesota, especially at Bdóte. Dakota villages were seasonal and moved depending on the time of the year but culturally they center on the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers and surrounding areas.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 14:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera: Do you have a source that specifically says Minneapolis is the Dakota "homeland"? Magnolia677 (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Minnesota historical society: https://www.mnhs.org/millcity/learn/history/minneapolis-riverfront
• City of Minneapolis land acknowledgement: https://www.minneapolis.org/land-acknowledgment/
• University of Minnesota Twin Cities land acknowledgement: https://admissions.tc.umn.edu/land-acknowledgement
• Secondary source, CBS News: https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/hennepin-county-adopts-land-and-water-acknowledgment-statement/

 oncamera  _{(talk page)} 14:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera: The sources you have cited state that various places in the region are located on Dakota "homeland", but Minneapolis is not the homeland of the Dakota. Please keep in mind: this article is not about the Dakota, or about the history of Minnesota...it is about Minneapolis. So changing a section heading to suggest that the city is the homeland of the Dakota--when sources cited do not support this or suggest the opposite--is both misleading and factually incorrect. Please revert your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This article includes the history about how the Dakota were originally on the land that became Minneapolis. You can't write about Dakota people without writing about their land in this article, therefore you can't change it from Dakota homelands to Dakota people as you did. Interactions with the Dakota leaders, US government and various notable Europeans reiterate it's Dakota homelands and numerous organizations call it Dakota homelands today. You're incorrect to ask that it be reverted to Dakota people as the section is about them originally inhabiting this land, it's not about their society as peoples.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)