Talk:Hmong people

The following paragraph is found within the "History" section of this article:

 "In China, the first recorded Hmong kingdom was called Jiuli, and its ruler or rulers, had the title, Chiyou. Chiyou is also spelled Zhiyou (pinyin) and Txiv Yawg (RPA Hmong). Chiyou means father-grandfather, and is a title equal to, but no less, than emperor. No one goes by the title, Chiyou, today. Chiyou's ancestors are thought to be the Liangzhu people. The Liangzhu people are credited with creating proto-characters for today's Chinese, Korean, and Japanese characters. Chiyou is responsible for ushering people of the Far East into the civilized era; he established a central government system, penal laws, and religion. His people's achievements also included melting metal for weapons. Jiuli was said to have jurisdiction over 9 tribes and 81 clans; Chiyou's unification ability was unsurpassed; his ethnic Han contemporaries, Huangdi and Yandi, both blood brothers, were divided and could not confront Jiuli individually.eved to have a history even longer than that of the Han Chinese."

The assertion that Chiyou is reponsible for ushering people of the Far East into the civilized era is a bit far-reaching, and perhaps borders on being a non-neutral point-of-view, unless this part can be made strictly and unequivocally into the recounting of an oral mythology or oral history. In the same vein, I think it would be irresponsible to argue that the Nikkeejin or the people of Shilla brought civilization to the Far East. Specifically, what are the primary sources for this assertion? Or is this paragraph still recounting the oral narrative of the Hmong, or perhaps the single viewpoint of a Wikipedia contributor who believes the Hmong civilized Asia? What is a "proto-character"? This is too unclear. I will be editing this until it becomes acceptable unless a buttressing argument for all these assertions in the above paragraph can be made.Wilgamesh 17:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What does the following sentence in the first paragraph mean?

Does this sentence mean that there is a recorded history that is longer than that of the Han Chinese? Does this sentence mean that the mythology of the Hmong mentions Han Chinese culture? Does it mean the Hmong believe that, as a group, they have existed since and before the rise of Han culture? Perhaps it means that in the earliest possible recorded Han Chinese texts, there is evidence of a pre-existent Hmong culture? I think this sentence is a too unclear, and sets a misleading context for the rest of the article. Can someone buttress this statement? wilgamesh

A source is mentioned for part of the text here. Is that public domain stuff? jheijmans

Yes, the material from the newsletter can be distibuted freely upon acknowledgement. No copyrights. BTW those material only contributed to the account on nomenclature whereas I wrote the course in history Ktsquare

OK, maybe you should put that notice with the acknowledgement. jheijmans

"However, I think that it is best to use Miao as a general term, especially as this is in accord with tradition and is also practical for making the situation clear to persons not specialising in Miaology." I am Hmong, and according to my point of view, you can't put your own opinion into such article when you have no understanding what so ever about being called Hmong or Miao. Isn't the article about facts, not what you think? By writing such things, students, teachers, or who ever is researching about Miao or Hmong would state your quote as fact, not opinion.

        HmongLady

Adjusted --Kaihsu 06:35, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

August 29, 2003.

Many of you had mention Miao in this discussion, but you all missed understood and over looked the history. The word Miao did not mean cat or originated by the Chinese. however this term "Miao" invented by Hmong themselves. The term Miao which is known for centuries or to Lao, Thai, Chinese & others came from the great Kingdom of San Miao. The Kingdom of San Miao was Hmong whom had ruled large parts of China for 1,000 years, and many groups such as Lao, Thai, Chinese might have been lived under San Miao. Because these groups were ruled by San Miao for 1,000 years that why Hmnong was known to Lao, Thai, Chinese and others as Miao. When these groups called "Hmong" Miao they referred to San Miao Kingdom. San Miao was a strong, powerful kingdom. Moreover, the word San Miao meant 3 Hmong Brothers whom created the San Miao Kingdom, and also the word "San" in Chinese meant 3, right. Anyaway I am proud to be called Miao. However, if any of you want to know more about Miao you should research more especially the San Miao era. "Hmong, you should proud to be called Miao" when they called you Miao they remembering our Kingdom of San Miao

By I am proud to be Miao.

Rank among Chinese ethnic groups

List of Chinese ethnic groups gives the Miao as the 5th most populous ethnic group in China. This article says 4th. Neither is clear on sources. Can anyone sort this out? -- Jmabel 01:18, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The 4th largest minority; the 5th largest nationality. There is no dispute on this whatsover. No need to cite sources, you can easily find dozens. If you want the exact population, then maybe you can cite source. --Menchi 01:54, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

With your edit, that is now clear. I thought there was a conflict in the claim. -- Jmabel 02:33, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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The articles says, "The Miao groups of China have, to my knowledge, voiced no such concern" [emphasis mine]. "My" obviously has no place in the article. Is there any way of mentioning this fact while citing someone other than "me"? Perhaps "The Department of Anthropology at the Australian National University is not aware of any concern voiced by the Miao groups of China"? – [[User:Mxn|Minh Nguyễn (talk, blog)]] 23:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've edited in a way I think handles this decently (not ideally, because the person who originally wrote this did not give us the author or name of article). -- Jmabel | Talk 06:28, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

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If "Miao" is considered disparaging why is it used so frequently? Dustin Asby 19:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A: Miao=Hmong; Hmong=Miao "Miao" is not the problem, the slang term "Meo" is derogatory in the same sense that "Nigger" is derogatory, but not "Nigga".

BC

Does anyone have a source to indicate whether the recent anonymous change of 26th century BC to 6th century BC is a correction or vandalism? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:43, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

So we're looking for an accurate date for a legendary battle? ;) According to [1], the earlier date is "correct". I suspect that the changer was trying to correct it, and was thinking of another emperor called Huangdi (they almost all were). Mark¹ 01:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmong or Miao

Miao is what the Chinese call Hmong. Hmong is what Hmong people call themselves. Hmong are Miao to the Chinese, and Miao means Hmong to the Chinese. Since the dawn of time, Hmong call themselves Hmong. The Chinese sinicize everything and corrupt enunciation. For example, Micheal, becomes Mi-Ke (pronounced, Mai-Kuh). America becomes, Mei-guo. English becomes, Yin-wen. It is just easier for the Chinese speaking person to say Miao than Hmong.

Miao has never been a derogoratary term for Hmong people. It is the term "Meo" as used by ethnic Lao people that was derogoratory to Hmong people.

We all know that Miao is a nationality and covers many ethnic groups. Miao is not exclusively Hmong. But, Miao connotes exclusively Hmong. For example, the Miao Rebellion did not mean those non-Hmong ethnic rebels, it meant those ethnic Hmong rebels. The Chinese may have considered Hmong people to be barbarians, but the reality is that Hmong and ethnic Han have a lot in common; their languages, cultures, beliefs, etc..., are all semantically and some syntatically alike.

My father performs some rituals that uses ancient Chinese words. My great grandfather had many Hmong business friends from Guizhou who were Chinese to Hmong people because they had assimilated completely into Chinese culture. Hmong and Chinese are threads of the same fabric, sometimes intersecting and sometimes running parallel.

The definition of Hmong and Miao is resolved in my opinion, but requires clarifcation. The problem of "Chinese" remains a bigger issue. What is considered "Chinese" and who contributed to "Chinese" remains an ever more complex identity query.

Nomenclature

The Chinese expeditioners and invaders gave to the Hmong the appelation "Miao", which later became "Meo" and "Man". Latter term means the southern "barbarian" - an expression formerly used, in Europe, by the Romans to designate other peoples.

Obj. 1 - Is it fair to say that the term "Miao2" as it's being referenced here to mean "barbarian" would be on a par with other terms that are translated as barbarian (e.g., Xiongnu)?

Obj. 2 - I'm relatively sure that the Romans never said "man" to mean "barbarian". Or "barbarian", which is an English word of Greek origin (barbaros), for that matter. Can someone explain the meaning of this sentence?

siafu 23:51, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)