Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)

The information contained in this article, as well as several others concerning "LDS denominations" is inaccurate in it's explanation of the "crisis of succession". When Joseph Smith was murdered, the procedures by which the next prophet and president was to be ordained were already established by revelation. The organization of the First Presidency and Quorom of Twelve Apostles followed the correct process, and by inspiration and common consent the Lord directed Brigham Young to continue the work.

These articles give the false impression that Brigham Young was leading a "secret faction" and that he essentially assumed power by misleading the entire church membership into voting for him. This could not be further from the truth since Young, along with the rest of apostles, actually adhered to church doctrine and followed the correct procedures after the death of Smith.

During this time there were several men who took it upon themselves to become the next prophet in opposition to everything that had been previously organized. These men left the Church and decided to disregard the approved process. They forgot that prophets are called by God through revelation, not by the personal desires of men who covet power.

The Bickertonites, Strangites, etc. all decided to seperate themselves from the Church based on what they thought should happen rather than simply following the proper procedures.

These articles paint the apostates as heroes while Young and other church leaders are denigrated for doing what they were directed to do by Joseph Smith himself.

Being LDS, I totally understand your view, but this view is only that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and does not reflect the view of other Mormon denominations. Because of Wikipedia policy, we have to make sure that articles present a neutral point of view. COGDEN 21:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought I was being neutral. Can you tell me how to improve?

It should be pointed out to the writer above that Brigham Young created a new church when he had all members who followed him to the Great Basin baptized, thus rejecting the authority of God restored through Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and creating a new authority based on Young.

With regard to the above, no church members were rebaptized into the Mormon church of Brigham Young vs the Mormon church of Joseph Smith. Do you have a reference for the claim?

With regards to references and disputes above, check out the LDS Church History from 1844-1860 as well as writings by Paul Peterson and others. Rebaptism is an undisputed LDS Historical fact, even though many Utah Mormons are unaware. With regards to earlier historical issues from 1844 listen to the facts. Brigham Young was not placed in the position of the First Presidency until 1847. It seems odd he would claim any sense of leadership of the Church before that. As to Rigdon's true leadership, he was the only member of the Church who was still in the leadership position of the First Presidency -- which had ALWAYS governed the Church for the past fifteen years. Young took a less than majority vote (5) to replace Rigdon -- Rigdon's claim was to be a 'governor' for the Church during this time period of crisis until order could be restored. The Church requires a majority vote from the 12. If you don't believe me check out Church history and Rigdon's biography. Either way clearly The Church of Jesus Christ(Bickertonites) have as fair a claim as any other organization.

Questions/comments

The article states, "Church members always greet each other with a "holy kiss" (following New Testament precedents)."

A holy kiss is an interesting concept and should be explained in more detail? What does it entail? A simple kiss on the cheek? An Eastern kiss? More detail on this would be nice to explain. Also a reference to the D&C on washing of the feet (or something similar) would be useful cross referece.

Speaking of the D&C, what are the Bickertonites scriptures? is it just the bible and book of mormon?

(Speaking as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ headquarters Monongahela PA, The scriptures that are accepted are the Bible, and Book of Mormon. None of Joseph Smiths other writings are accepted.)

"Hymns through a single sister" The entire last paragraph of the hyms section needs to be re-written - it is difficult to understand. Who is the single member? Is she married? Is it the same she as is referenced in the next sentence? Etc.

Just a few suggestions to make this better. -Visorstuff 23:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

The assertion that the procedures were already in place for selection of the next President of the LDS Church after Joseph Smith is entirely wrong. Eeven after John Taylor (the 3rd President) the succsssion order had not yet been established and it was nearly 3 years before Wilford Woodruff becaame the 4th President and it was with his Presidency that the succession order was established forever for the future of the Salt Lake City based LDS Church.

Not NPOV

I realize that when one deals with religion it is very difficult to remove a point of view, but the quote from the article "The songs are quite beautiful and filled with the Spirit of God" definitely is not NPOV.

Agreed. This article in no way shape or form follows the NPOV Policy of Wikipedia. The article mentions how elders aren't called by "Father" or "Reverend" as they are volunteers and not paid (as according to Scripture)! I don't think it is an article's purpose to tell the reader what is and isn't scriptual. There are changes that are easy to make such as replacing the "as according to Scripture" with "as according to the scriptual interpretations of the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite).",etc

NPOV

"as according to scripture" is a NPOV. We are not interpreting scripture just merely stating what scriptures says. When Christ said "freely ye have received, freely give." He is clearly showing that payment for the Gospel was not in Christ's holy plan. When he said "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven", Christ clearly states to call no man your father. These are tenants of our beliefs founded upon scripture, not interpreted how we want to. Thus, statements "according to scripture" are NPOV.

and just for any future references there scriptures are found in the KJV as that is the version used in The Church of Jesus Christ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JNicklow (talk • contribs) 00:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

RE:NPOV. I'm sorry, but you are interpreting those scriptures. It may seem obvious to you, but some might claim that in the first case, you're clearly supposed to give everything you receive. It says nothing about the price of the Gospel in what you've quoted. You're putting more intrerpretation than a literal one. In the latter case, you're putting less than other people might, some might say that you're not supposed to call anyone your father, not even your biological father, or some might think that he's just speaking figuratively to emphasize that your Father in Heaven is your *real* father, and that while you may call others (like a pastor) your father, the word should always remind you of your Father in Heaven. WP:RS mentions that Matthew 18:9, Mark 9:47, interpreted literally, advocate the removal of ones eyes.

In order to be NPOV, one must state the scripture, and how the church interprets it. E.g. "the bible says to call no man your father and members of this church believe that this scripture advocates not calling ecclesiastical leaders 'father'." But note that while that statement is NPOV (because it doesn't state that the usage of "father" for a pastor is inappropriate, it states that the belief of the church is that it is inappropriate to call a pastor "father"), it lacks attribution. So it should be specked with stuff like: "the bible says to call no man your father<ref>KJV 4 John 42:119</ref> and members of this church believe that this scripture advocates not calling ecclesiastical leaders 'father'<ref>Doctrines of the Bickertonites, James Earl, 1776, p.16384</ref>.". Otherwise, such a section shouldn't be placed on this page. McKay 17:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Why Always the "A" Word???

Excuse me, but IN CONTEXT, it should be clear to anyone with even the smallest mental capacity that this article is about The Church of Jesus Christ and its position on points that separate it from the rest of the Restoration Churches in the Latter Day Saint grouping.

I dispute this comment:

"When Joseph Smith was murdered, the procedures by which the next prophet and president was to be ordained were already established by revelation. The organization of the First Presidency and Quorom of Twelve Apostles followed the correct process, and by inspiration and common consent the Lord directed Brigham Young to continue the work."

This is NOT borne out by the facts. There was confusion and Smith left a number of possible succession models behind. There was no "one" procedure in place, but several possible succession models.

Not only was there no procedure in place but such did not happen until after the death of John Taylor, the 3rd President of the Salt Lake City LDS, when it went nearly 3 years before it was decided up Wilford Woodruff. It was not until this time that the procedure to be used forever forward in the Church was approved and sustained by the Twelve.

There was no policy that the Second Quorum succeed the First. That was the position taken by the faction of the church that eventually followed Young to Utah.

Since Sidney Rigdon was STILL alive, his position was as valid as any. You have to remember that what we see now as "obvious" was not so obvious back then.

The story about Sidney Rigdon being rejected by Smith has been shown to be an oft-repeated myth that was constructed later AFTER Rigdon and the Twelve went their separate ways. See Samuel Taylor's "Auntie Mormon" recap of the actual events, among others. So, while TRUE that the relationship between Smith and Rigdon was very strained at the time of Smith's death, it was not so bad that Ridgon was not part of the First Presidency as some haver falsified.

Brigham Young may well have felt right in his position and he did carry the vote of the majority as the Second Quorum was sustained in their calling. Rigdon's suggestion that he be appointed as guardian was rejected, partially on the strength that Young advanced on no one being able to replace the Prophet.

Rigdon was later excommunicted and he, in turn, excommunicated the Twelve.

At the time, he was denouncing the Twelve for POLYGAMY and POLYANDRY and he was called a liar and an apostate for doing so. Recall that a faction in the Church was practicing these at a time that BOTH the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon SPECIFICALLY denounced these abberations.

Young later re-instituted a First Presidency under less-than-full quorum conditions.

History has also shown that the LDS have been by far the most successful branch of this movement. That does not, however, give it exclusive rights to the claims of the movement!

"These articles give the false impression that Brigham Young was leading a "secret faction" and that he essentially assumed power by misleading the entire church membership into voting for him."

I think Brigham Young was an able and skilled leader. He believed in what he was doing. He exhibited the Alpha Male behaviour at times in doing so.

He was NOT universally accepted by all in the original church.

You Utah LDS have a right to claim to be PART of that history, but so do the others of us. We are NOT your "apostates" any more than YOU are ours. All of the resulting churches at the dispersion of the saints at Nauvoo have a claim to this legacy!

"This could not be further from the truth since Young, along with the rest of apostles, actually adhered to church doctrine and followed the correct procedures after the death of Smith."

I beg to differ.

The point that has been obscured by revisonist history is that it was but ONE of MANY possible "church doctrine and ... correct procedures" Smith left behind. Michael Quinn, formerly of your church, wrote an article that defined the 8 (as I recall) models of succssion Smith left behind. You may want to read it.

"During this time there were several men who took it upon themselves to become the next prophet in opposition to everything that had been previously organized. These men left the Church and decided to disregard the approved process. They forgot that prophets are called by God through revelation, not by the personal desires of men who covet power."

Now who is slipping in OPINION as fact? The above is the Utah LDS view. If we "Bickertonites" agreed with you, there would not be an issue, right?

"The Bickertonites, Strangites, etc. all decided to seperate themselves from the Church based on what they thought should happen rather than simply following the proper procedures."

Again easily demonstratable as OPINION.

"These articles paint the apostates as heroes while Young and other church leaders are denigrated for doing what they were directed to do by Joseph Smith himself."

Why do so many of you Utah LDS like the "A" word??? Is that your BEST answer to the legitimacy of other Restoration Christians? Why can't you just love us and let us love you back?

We were together for a mere 14 years and have existed APART for 161 years. We have ALL survived and we have disproven each other's "dire" predicitions of each other's failure.

Can we move on?

Why can't we do as Community of Christ President Steve Veazey suggests towards other Restoration churches and "be good neighbors"? Part of that process would eliminate the use of the "A" word and the ability to accept that there ARE legitimate reasons for other latter day saints to follow variant positions without name-calling. ..

Hi Anon, you are correct. Please feel free to clean up some of the POV that other editors have introduced.

Often the edits are not meant to be malignant, but are done with the best intent. Please be patient with the other editors, whether they are Brighamite or Bickertonite. I also believe that other Bickertonites have edited this page in the past, so you may want to see who introduced those edits and engage in dialogue with them directly. We all have a very rich history, and as part of the Latter Day Saint movement, I don't think we realize how influential we can be when we work together. -Visorstuff 20:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

In both Bibilical and Book of Mormon scripture, it is clearly outlined that "by their fruits, ye shall know them". The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints clearly fits the description, and any break off from the true restored church of God, separates itself from living revelation.

Proposed Rigdonite Merge

Whoever proposed this merge doesn't have a clue about this Church or what it represents. Yes, William Bickerton converted to Mormonism under Sidney Ridgon's influence, but Bickerton broke with Rigdon in 1846. The Ridgonite Church went on to other parts of Pennsylvania while Bickerton remained behind in Monongahela. Bickerton was largely a self-taught (autodidact) Mormon and founded his own Church completely independent of Rigdon. Therefore, this suggested merge is ridiculous. The two Churches are entirely separate and independent of each other. StudierMalMarburg 16:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Rename

Sorry for any confusion but the church's official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ" and not "Church of Jesus Christ" so I had to add "The" to the name according to WP:NCD. Thanks

Links to utah Mormon content

While I understand that members of The Church of Jesus Christ may not particularly like the links to articles that also pertain to utah mormonism, links of some sort are required. If someone would like to make an article on the Quoroum of the 12 historically, feel free to do so, right now, the articles being linked to cover that historical topic, and people who are reading this article will want to know what the Quoroum of the 12 is, so a link is required. It's essential to an understanding of the Bickertonite claim to authority. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Right now, I'm going to see what I can do to make those links better. McKay 14:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Links to other Beliefs

McKay, While I understand the need for linked material you are obviously missing the point. First of all the pages you are trying to link are POV pages. The difficulty with that time period is that there is no sure understanding of exactly what was and what happened. Each restoration group has different claims. The linked pages are POV pages that only show the LDS POV. That is NOT concurrent with TCOJC beliefs and therefore does not explain to readers what we mean when we use those terms. You cannot link the pages unless the page contains the beliefs of the TCOJC accoring to WP:UNDUE you must give some weight to all sides of the issue. So untill there is information on the linked page to our beliefs you cannot link the page. So I am removing the link to all sides can be satisfied. JRN 17:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Be careful, what you call POV. Those pages are not POV pages. For example, those pages don't say "Only the apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints receive direct revelation from God and therefore we should listen to everything they have to say." While I may believe that statement, it isn't a verifiable fact, and doesn't belong on that page. The article says the 12 are the governing body of the LDS church, which is a verifiable fact, something which members of the bickertonite faith believe. It is also a verifiable fact, that Brigham Young was a member of that same group. Specifically the original group foudned by Joseph Smith. Your faith believes that Brigham Young was a member of original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The content located at First Presidency doesn't mention much historically, but it does show the early first presidencies under the direction of Joseph Smith, the President of the 12 article is similarly partially historically based, but does also show early presidents as you believe also. User:JNicklow recently removed those two, and I think that that might be appropriate, leaving the 12 link intact. This is not a matter of WP:UNDUE, because the history here isn't in dispute, you just are unhappy with linking to articles that are primarily about the LDS faith, regardless of your historical association with them.

I have also been asked not to edit this page. Such a request is against the purpose of a wiki, and against the purposes of Wikipedia (a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit). While my beliefs may not be yours, I think it's important to have both sides of the view present, to have an independent contributor. I may not know your beliefs as well as you do, but I can help prevent POV on this page. Also, I believe I have helped this page out substantially, particularly in adhering to wikipedia policy. McKay 17:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, one could argue that you don't quite even belong on this page, because your editing appears to be a violation of WP:COI. It appears as if I have more of a right to edit than you do. I'm not asking you to leave. I'm just asking you to follow policy. McKay 19:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You continue to keep editing this page regardless of what you edit is correct or not. I didn't ask you to stop editing altogether, I merely asked you to stop editing UNTIL you became more familiar with The Church so that you didn't keep making mistakes. Your current revision of the stand that we are not affiliated with any other churches will be reverted. Sidney Rigdon was excommunicated by the LDS church therefore severing all ties and affiliations to the church. As he was not affiliated with the LDS from 1845 on anything he did after that is not affiliated with the LDS church. Although we share 14 years of history from 1830-1844 after that point there is no more affiliation because of Rigdon's excommunication. Please do not continue to make edits that are unsubstatiated. If you do not know what you are talking about then please don't make changes. 205.149.71.152 18:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

conflicting information

McKay's Version:

The Church of Jesus Christ is part of the Latter Day Saint movement. It is a Restorationist church. The Church claims no associations between any other churches, including other Latter Day Saint sects. Generally considered the third largest of the organizations emerging from the 1844 succession crisis, 

Current Version:

The Church is not affiliated with any other churches, including other Latter Day Saint sects. Generally considered the third largest of the organizations emerging from the 1844 succession crisis,\

the current version is incorrect and appears contradictory. It claims to come out of the 1844 succession crisis, but isn't afilliated (in any way) from other Latter Day Saint sects. I propose that my version *is* correct. It correctly shows them as being part of the Latter Day Saint movement (specifically the 1844 succession crisis), and states the churches statement of affiliation in an NPOV manner. McKay 18:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, my edit was construed as vandalism, speicifcally that it didn't cite sources. The version reverted to also did not have sources. McKay 18:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The current version does not contradict itself because 'general' opinion is not the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ (bickertonites). The Church believes it holds the authority restored to Joseph Smith, jr. Other groups consider the Church as the third largest breakoff. No contradiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.103.109 (talk • contribs)

There is no apparent contradiction. If McKay understood what affiliation meant then he would see there is no contradition. An affiliation is an association or union. There exists no associations or unions between the churches. Even with a 14 year common history there is no affiliation because of Rigdon's excommunication. The Church of Jesus Christ is not affiliated with any other church or denomination. Please stop using wiki policy to try and prove your wrong or misguided conclusions. Again before trying to edit this page try to learn and understand something about The Church of Jesus Christ. The excommunication of Sidney Rigdon is in your history too. JRN 20:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It appears as if you do not understand what the definition is: [1] "a member of a group of associated things." Both churches are part of the Latter Day Saint movement. This is a verifiable fact. There *is* an association, also note that in my version, I say that the church is part of the Latter Day Saint movement (which it is), and I mention that the church says that it doesn't claim any association with any other sects (which is also true). What's wrong with what I've written? McKay 20:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

McKay please stop vandalizing this site with your opinion. It would appear you as well have private interests within this site to promote your own Church. JCG

My edits are not vandalism. Please WP:AGF. Please stop these personal attacks against me. McKay 20:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

These are not personal attacks, simply viewing The Church of Jesus Christ's official website at www.thechurchofjesuschrist.org clearly displays that The Church of Jesus Christ has no affiliation with other organizations. According to wikipedia, an affiliation is a term that in law describes a partnership. The Church of Jesus Christ is a distinct and separate Restoration Church. Not only this, it has no affiliations with either LDS or any other church group. To see wikipedia's legal clarification of affiliation please see affiliation. Clearly this proves that there is no contradiction.

The issue here is a controversy between social and legal. Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ has much in common historically with these other groups. Its claim, however, is that the other organizations split themselves from The Church of Jesus Christ. Now this is opinion of the Church...so what is the proper medium that would be appropriate and not contradictory for the website? McKay I respect your opinion and thoughts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcg5029 (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia is not a dictionary, it's an encyclopedia. The article you linked affiliaton is the "legal" definition of the term, you yourself said that "in law describes a partnership". If you would like to amend the statement to say "no legal affiliation" that would be more consistent. I'm saying that there is an affiliation, namely a historical one. Both churches are part of the Latter Day Saint movement. I think it's important to specifically state that in the opening paragraph. Most of the Latter Day Saint sects have this in their opening paragraph. My contributions are not vandalism. I have outlined what I think it should say. It adds additional information, and clarifies the position of the church without denouncing it. I'll ask again, "What's wrong with the version I proposed?" McKay 21:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with the version you proposed is that it is not in sync with The Church of Jesus Christ' stance

"As a note of clarification, despite being similar in name, we are not affiliated with the Church of Christ nor with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – also known as the Mormon Church."

So whether you like the stance or not that's where it stands. Just because you don't agree with the stance does not mean you can delete it or claim it is a contradiction. Furthermore, you cannot use wikipedia policy to overide statements that you don't agree with. We know that as a member of the LDS church you do not agree with our beliefs, but I would ask you to stop using wikipedia policy to try and change what we believe. I have not gone on the LDS page and argued, deleted, and changed their beliefs simply because I do not agree. Right now you are borderline WP:COI mainly because you keep trying to use The Church of Jesus Christ to promote The LDS by continually adding links to another church with different beliefs. Accept that we are a different church, with different beliefs, and NO AFFILIATIONS WITH OTHER CHURCHES. Again I would ask you to discontinue what you are doing and consider your malacious attacks and then intent of them. Thank you

Whats wrong with what is there now in your opinion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcg5029 (talk • contribs)

The same thing as before, the church appears to claim that it's unlike any other church. But it isn't, it has a claim of lineage from Joseph Smith like all the other Latter Day Saint sects. Almost all of the Latter Day Saint church articles have "is a denomination of the Latter Day Saint movement" or something like that in the opening paragraph. You all seem so opposed to that line. I'm wanting consistency, within this article, and within wikipedia. The general feeling is that you don't want to be a Latter Day Saint sect. Is that the problem? McKay 22:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Succession

can you explain what is meant by the line "It claims true succession from all other Latter Day Saint sects." I think "secession" might be closer, but it can't have seceded from all of the sects, just the original sect. I'm confused by that statement. McKay 22:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

"Succession"—as in "succeed". To "take the place previously filled by." George W. Bush "succeeded" Bill Clinton as President of the United States. This church claims to be the rightful "successor" to the original Latter Day Saint denomination established by Joseph Smith. It could probably be worded more clearly. SESmith 22:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)