Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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Reliable source only gives one out of three examples

I was discussing some edits in the Min Hee-Jin talk page after various reversion. Specifically the first controversies section. Please note that we reached a consensus after I took the time to talk to everybody and rewrite it but I am still curious about the proper procedure.

The first reliable source of the section is refering to twitter users commenting on instagram posts (since deleted) of Min Hee-Jin where you would be able to see her apartement. She was accused of being inspired by sexual media with minors. The Reliable source only mention one of the movies you could see on her walls. I added all of them to the section. They were reverted as "unsourced". Even if those posts are fabricated, they are archived on archive.org but I think on a static page only, how is the one explicitely mentioned in the article different in status from the others? The article is referring to a twitter discussion and picking one movie just for space or editorial reasons. Is adding the other movies referenced by the twitter users screenshots of instagram an "original research"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinemaandpolitics (talk • contribs) 23:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Significant unreferenced additions by one user

In September and October 2022, CinemaKnight100 added sections to several dozen articles about the composition and redistricting of different congressional districts. These sections include population information without any citation for the numbers given, and no timestamp information for when the observation might have been made. Further, they don't contain any references for the definition of the district boundaries, so the towns and cities claimed for the districts are also not verifiable.

How can this material best be corrected? -- Mikeblas (talk) 00:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I think in such a case (dozens of articles about a political topic) it's important to first try to figure out whether that editor was (a) working in good faith but not finishing the job correctly, (b) inserting garbage to disrupt Wikipedia (i.e. vandalism), or (c) systematically lying to advance some agenda.

If it is possible to look these things up somewhere reliable, and if it turns out that the editor was telling the truth, then cleaning up the editor's work and providing the missing references is enough. (Along with putting a note on their user talk page, if appropriate.) TooManyFingers (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd advise you check out this [1], if you want to verify his work. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Is mere observation original research?

If a scientist conducts scientific research by experiment about something he should not include the results in a WP article unless possibly he publishes it in a learned periodical first especially if that magazine article is reviewed by other scientists. That I can understand. If a historian researches a subject he cannot include his own conclusions in a WP article unless they agree with earlier research. If for instance the research is into the causes of the Second World War, if he agrees with say AJP Taylor's conclusions he can cite Taylor's works in the same way as he can cite facts included in Taylor's books. However he cannot cite something he finds in an unpublished diary letter or speech of Adolf Hitler or Neville Chamberlain. If the speech, letter or diary is published as a complete document-perhaps in a book of collected correspondence or a single web published page on say a University website. That I can understand. If a WP page mentions a particular building with which I am familiar and perhaps see every week and that building is demolished or changes its use can I change the WP article or is it called "original research." .There is a published source about the building but saying it exists or has a particular use, but this has not been updated. A sourced WP article says e.g."there is a post office at Smallville" but there is no source to say the Smallville Post Office has been demolished or has been turned into a private house. Can a resident of Smallville .correct the article to say so or simply delete the sentence about it? This can be verified by anybody that visits Smallville. This is mere observation rather than research. No special scientific or historian's skill involved. I have encountered this sort of situation on a number of occasions and it has been difficult to find sources and sometimes the information has been indirect such as a directory that does not include any mention of the building.. . Spinney Hill (talk) 13:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

As a matter of frank practicality, stuff like this is occasionally necessary, although of course nobody likes it. It is nearly always possible to find something serving as proof that the thing is or isn't the case, so in most cases that can be done. Generally, this is meant to be encompassed within the concept of notability (e.g. if there are no sources reporting on the fact that a person who has died, were they that notable in the first place?) but edge cases do happen sometimes. jp×g🗯️ 06:25, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Short answer: yes. Long answer: its a grey area but something would have to be published... But even a demolition or construction notice nailed to a light post would count. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

In most cases, I would have no problem with an editor adding such mundane observations… BUT… if some other editor objects and says we need a source, we should leave it out until the required source is found. Blueboar (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Its not just a question of notability. In my scenario the district or town is the notable thing. Its the subject of the article but the building that is demolished or changes its use is not of itself notable but was quite properly included in the article as part of the description of the town. If its not there it shouldn't be included.. I'll give another example. This time it is specific.

The village of Cogenhoe, Northamptonshire has a wp article. There is a gravel quarry there which has been dug in the last 5 years. I have found no printed or internet source for this but I have seen it. Any sighted person who walks along a particular road or a number of footpaths can do the same and verify this. There will be a planning permission at the local authority offices which can be inspected by the public (I think) but it won't necessarily be printed in the local paper. I have searched the paper's website. I have searched the gravel company's website. In any case the permission will not state that the quarrying has actually been started, only that permission to quarry has been given.. . Spinney Hill (talk) 22:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Honestly that seems to be getting more into WP:DUE and WP:NOT than a question about OR. Why does the article need to mention the quarry? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Because it is a major part of the landscape, an important part of the geography of the place in all senses and will in time be part of the local history. Spinney Hill (talk) 07:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Then in time it will be included on the wikipedia page. There is no rush and no reason to include it today. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I edit in areas like this (on English places) and I have used planning applications as a reference in some instances where I have found absolutely nothing else. I admit that this is a "last resort" option. Most council planning websites have dynamic URLs (not sure if that's the right technical term!) which mean individual documents (decision notices, officers' reports etc.: stuff that would confirm demolitions etc.) can't be cited directly; so I tend to create a simple reference consisting of the planning application reference, date, address and then the title of the planning application as a quote. In terms of verifiability, somebody checking the reference could then go to the local authority's planning website and search for the application reference. No ref template used: it just goes between ref tags. See reference number 235 here for an example. I always intend such references to be placeholders until I can find something more useful. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 12:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this about the correct quarry? Seems like a viable ref for the planning of it. DMacks (talk) 13:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the volatility of the URL, you can archive the current page at archive.org then include the archive address as part of the citation. Zero^talk 01:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Absurd demand?

This is about [2]. IMHO, the demand that "quite conservative" and "mainstream" should be found verbatim in the WP:RS is absurd. We render the meaning of the WP:RS, we don't closely paraphrase it. The deletion is taking WP:OR to absurd extent. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you should wait more than 15 minutes for a reply on the relevant talk page before launching a noticeboard discussion. This is unproductive and raises questions of intention. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Is that part of the WP:RULES? Could you provide a verbatim quote that it is a broadly accepted behavioral standard at en.wiki? tgeorgescu (talk) 21:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Your reply there was:

For someone who is very vocal about their understanding of the rules, you seem to have neglected to review WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:BLP. Additionally, starting a noticeboard discussion immediately invites questions of forum-shopping. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Which in no way addressed taking WP:OR to absurd extent. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:TPG: No meta: Extended meta-discussions about editing belong on noticeboards, in Wikipedia-talk, or in User-talk namespaces, not in Article-talk namespace. This is not a meta-discussion: you inserted content not in the source. You could have weakly argued it was appropriate per WP:BLUESKY (if this wasn't a contestable claim about a living person). ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

you inserted content not in the source is a disputed claim, namely that you take WP:OR to absurd extent.

You argue about particular words, I argue about meaning. Apples and oranges. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure, TG. How does the source support the meaning of "quite conservative" and "mainstream"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, I'm not defending a particular wording, but the WP:RS makes the following points:

• Dever is a conservative archaeologist;
• archaeologists more conservative than Dever do apologetics, not historiography.

In other words: Dever is a conservative archaeologist who can be taken seriously, there are archaeologists more conservative than him, but they cannot be taken seriously. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

How does the RS make the point that Dever is a conservative archaeologist? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing in the source about "mainstream" but it does characterize Dever as one of the more conservative historians of ancient Israel. Does that help? Schazjmd (talk) 22:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 22:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Looks ok to me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Muqatta'at original contribution

The article on Muqatta'at, the disconnected letters at the beginnings of several chapters of the Qur'an, has received a large addition connecting these letters with the Tarot and ancient Egypt. At first there were no references, and the addition was therefore deleted. It was restored with footnotes referring in every case to other Wikipedia articles. The material was therefore deleted again, with the explanation that Wikipedia articles are not acceptable sources. The material was again restored, with the statement that the references must be accepted. To complicate matters, the contributor seems to believe himself to be the Mahdi (his name is a form of that word). The contributor has now reverted three deletes, and seems determined to persevere. Can anyone calm this situation, or must we freeze the article? J S Ayer (talk) 19:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

User:Remsense, Sir: Thank you! J S Ayer (talk) 20:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Original research and fringe at Safa Khulusi

Two years ago I removed a large amount (~74,000 bytes) of original research and fringe views (I will notify WP:FTN of this thread) from Safa Khulusi. A somewhat longish (sorry!) explanation and diffs of the removals at Talk:Safa Khulusi#Removal of originally researched analysis of Khulusi's works. Basically, the article was using Khulusi's own writings to present his (fringe) views as facts, and more generally providing an evaluation of Khulusi's work without any secondary sources.

Recently, a new single-purpose account StopTheV4dals has repeatedly reinstated [3][4] the last revision before my removals two year ago (cf. [5]). They refuse to discuss at the article talk.

Which revision should the article feature, StopTheV4dals's reinstatement of the old one [6] or my pruned revision of the last two years [7]? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 08:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Note that the attempt to restore blatant WP:OR to the article is ongoing. [8] AndyTheGrump (talk)

I have warned the user that I will block if they revert again. (That's assuming that I'm awake for it. If not, I expect somebody else will.) Bishonen | tålk 20:59, 15 May 2024 (UTC).

Notable scholar's own work acceptable or OR?

A number of Muslim Islamic scholars (including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328) and the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm (994-1064)), believe that belief in Jinn (supernatural beings, the origin of Genies) is essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran. I want to add two more scholars (Abul A'la Maududi (1903-1979) and Fethullah Gülen (1941-), on the basis of what they have clearly written in their own (RS) scholarly work

Quotes from scholars' writing Supporting Abul A'la Maududi's belief:

In his introduction to the Quran, Maududi defends "the reality of the jinn" against the influence of "modernism", the failure of modernists to believe in what cannot be perceived, and their idea that the jinn of the Quran were not supernatural invisible beings but actually "savage and wild mountain tribes, and sometimes the people who used to listen to the Quran secretly".
Mawdudi, Sayyid Abul. "72. Al-Jinn". Towards Understanding the Quran. Archive.org. p. 2739. Retrieved 11 May 2024.
Maududi, Syed Abu-Ala'. "72. Jinn. Reality of Jinn". Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Quran. International Islamic University of Malaysia. Retrieved 12 March 2024.
Maududi, Syed Abu-Ala'. "72. Jinn. Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Quran". islam101.com/. Retrieved 11 May 2024.

(Not included in the proposed notes to the article but in Maududi's Introduction to chapter 72, are two mentions of "the clear statements of the Qur'an about the jinn" and "the statements of the Qur'an in this regard are so clear and explicit that these interpretations bear no relevance to them whatever.")

Supporting Fethullah Gülen's belief that Jinn are essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran, are quotes from his work, Essentials of the Islamic Faith:

"As mentioned earlier, jinn are a species of invisible beings. A short Qur'anic chapter is named for them, and in it we learn that a band of jinn listened to Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, and some became believers: ..."
Gülen, Fethullah (14 September 2001). "Jinn and Their Functions". fgulen.com, Essentials of the Islamic Faith. Retrieved 5 May 2024.

"Jinn can harm the body and cause physical and psychological illnesses. It might be a good idea for medical authorities to consider whether jinn cause certain types of cancer, since cancer is an unordered and diseased growth in the body that we can describe as cellular anarchy".
Gülen, Fethullah (14 September 2001). "Jinn and Human Beings". fgulen.com, Essentials of the Islamic Faith. Retrieved 5 May 2024..

... on the same lines. Would it be okay to add such names as WP:SUMMARY in the list or would that be considered WP:OR or WP:SYNTH? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC) (with assistance of User:Bookku)

IMO revisit section heading too.

May be you can try some thing like 'Notable scholar's own work acceptable or OR?' Bookku (talk) 17:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Done --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

OR is a policy for editors editing Wikipedia. It usually doesn't apply to outside researchers, academics, historians etc. who may publish work based on their own research. Has the scholarly work of the two scholars in question been published in WP:RS? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 01:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry there still may be some confusion remained in framing the question. The question is not whether a scholar can engage in OR in his/her own scholarly work. Let me try again.

Say four scholars ABCD, PQRS, EFGH and MNOP are of equal standing and their works are RS to Wikipedia.

On the basis of their individual scholarly works we can write scholar ABCD believe in specific philosophical side XYZ. Also scholar PQRS believe in the same specific philosophical side XYZ. Also scholar EFGH believe in in the same specific philosophical side XYZ. Also scholars MNOP believe in in the same specific philosophical side XYZ.

1) So whether forming single sentence saying "Scholars ABCD, PQRS, EFGH and MNOP, all four, believe in the same specific philosophical side XYZ" will be acceptable sentence even though we do not have fifth scholar (i.e. one more independent) saying so, or would that be considered synthesis?

2) Here in this case present sentence in the article Jinn is on the line like: ".. many ... scholars, including ... scholar ABCD and the ... scholar PQRS, believe in specific philosophical side XYZ." For this kind of sentence luckily a specific RS is available from independent author mentioning scholar ABCD and the scholar PQRS believe XYZ.

Say you wish to add two more notable author names 'EFGH', and 'MNOP' on the basis what they too have clearly written in their own (RS) scholarly that they too believe in the same specific philosophical side XYZ. Though yet not covered as such by one more independent scholar saying 'EFGH', and 'MNOP' believe XYZ.

Here the question is if, anyways scholars 'EFGH', and 'MNOP' too believe in the same 'XYZ', then why not add them in the same sentence which state scholar ABCD and the scholar PQRS believe 'XYZ'? Bookku (talk) 03:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A request to share inputs in this discussion has been made @ WP:Teahouse#How does OR works? Pl. join @ WP:NORN Bookku (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Mere juxtaposition of information from different sources is not OR if no additional conclusion is being drawn or implied. After all, that's what our entire articles are supposed to consist of. So your sentence in (1) is perfectly OK if I understand the question. In (2), beware of "many" as some will argue that 4 is not many given that there have been thousands of commentators on Islamic law. Using "several" or "some" would be better, and if there are reliable sources with an opposite opinion mentioning them as well would satisfy NPOV better. Zero^talk 04:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Actually, the vast majority of Muslims believe that believing in the jinn is necessary, since they are mentioned in the Qur’an and authentic hadiths, but User:Louis P. Boog would like to mention some Muslim scholars, just for example.TheEagle107 (talk) 10:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not debating the facts but only the Wikipedia rules. If there is a reliable source using "most" it is allowed for us to use it too. However we aren't allowed to judge "most" by ourselves. I didn't look at the sources so I don't know which of these is true. Zero^talk 10:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This seems perfectly acceptable to me. If anything, it is a very mild (and acceptable) form of SYNTH, not OR. Toadspike [Talk] 17:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Er, um ... SYNTH is a species of OR. EEng 17:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Good point. I still don't think the claim suggested by Louis is problematic, and this seems to be the consensus of this entire discussion (which I now realize continues far below this point on the page). Toadspike [Talk] 17:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break (Inputs from Maproom and rest)

I've been invited here in a posting at the Teahouse. I'm puzzled by the thread. It's a debate about whether some claim counts as "original research", but I can't figure out what claim. Maybe it's one of these:

• Jinns exist.
• Devout Muslims believe that Jinns exist.
• Hanbalī and others believed that Jinns exist.
• Hanbalī and others stated that devout Muslims believe that Jinns exist.

While I don't know, I can't usefully contribute to the discussion. Maproom (talk) 10:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Maproom, Thanks for your response. It will be always good to have more views. I am my self in discussion facilitator role @ Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC. Up til now both sides are taking discussion ahead in good structured manner. Let me try to explain you once again.

The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion

The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion is, Both sides seem to maintain neutrality of the article, the main consideration before proposed RfC likely to be WP:DUE how much to cover.User:VenusFeuerFalle says (in the article-body Jinn) importance of jinn-belief (in Islam- and Muslim world) has been highlighted sufficiently already. User:Louis P. Boog says that is not sufficient enough and important scope exists to increase the weight. Similarly in case of rejection of Jinn, VFF feels present coverage is sufficient where as LPB finds some scope on that count too. Highlighted sentences in LPB's sandbox will be for consideration.

At Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion User:VFF's two concerns one was referred at WP:RSN#Hachette Livre the second OR one is referred here.

* Present sentence in the article for consideration here
Belief in jinn is not included among the six articles of Islamic faith, as belief in angels is. Nontheless, many Muslim scholars, including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya and the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm, believe they are essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran.

This sentence is supported in the article by Ref: Nünlist, Tobias. Dämonenglaube Im Islam. Germany, Walter De Gruyter Incorporated, p.33.

Tobias Nünlist is independent RS acceptable to both side referring to two scholars Hanbalī, ibn Taymiyya in above sentence.There is no disagreement up til here.

User LPB wishes to add two more scholar names Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen in the same above sentence. But there is no independent RS like Tobias Nünlist. So User VFF says adding Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen amounts to OR, where as user LPB says Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen are scholars in their own standing and references from their own book should be sufficient as RS. Hence section heading is titled, and main question is Notable scholar's i.e. Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen's own works acceptable or OR? for the given purpose.

Personally I have not weighed on Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen own books since these two authors are WP:DUE or not will be for main proposed RfC to decide; my role is discussion facilitator hence above I presented hypothetical case of "Scholars ABCD, PQRS, EFGH and MNOP" for juxtaposition. Your and other user inputs will be helpful for users who would participate in main RfC (@ Talk:Jinn) tentatively planned after closure of this discussion. Bookku (talk) 12:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Maproom. I'd also like to thank you and encourage you to weigh in. Maybe I can simplify the issue. To be a true Muslim many Muslims believe it is not only necessary to believe There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is his prophet but some other points of doctrine as well — for example, the "six articles of Islamic faith" (which include the belief in the existence and oneness of God, the existence of angels, etc.). For a number of Islamic scholars another point of doctrine is the existence of Jinn, because they are mentioned in the Quran. The wikipedia article on Jinn mentions two scholars who say this (ibn Taymiyya and ibn Hazm), and I want to add two more (Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen).

Ok, I'll weigh in. Disclaimer: I know very little of the tenets of Islam. I have looked at Wikipedia:No original research, and have observed how it's applied.

In Wikipedia, OR refers to research done by the editor making the claim.

If someone studies ants, and adds to an article the statement "some ants have eight legs", that is OR, and is not acceptable.

If someone cites reliable and uncontested sources, in support of the claim "All Muslims believe that God exists", that's fine. If someone cites a published work by Richard Dawkins, in support of the claim "Dawkins believes that no God exists", that's fine. If someone cites all those sources, in support of the claim "Dawkins is not a Muslim", that is synthesis, a form of OR. He has put two facts together and formed his own conclusion. That is not acceptable.

So: citing A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen in support of the claim "some notable scholars have stated that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith" is not OR. It may be overkill to cite four scholars in support of that claim, but it is not OR. Maproom (talk) 09:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

But I am including them on the basis of THEIR saying this (Jinn are real invisible beings and not a metaphor) in their writings, and not a THIRD PERSON WP:RS saying so in a commentary. There is not dispute (AFAIK) that the two scholars are notable or that their writings quoted are their own, but is quoting THEM (and not a third person) OR? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Their writing it in a published source is evidence that they believe it. You don't need another source to say that they wrote it, and it's certainly not OR. Another example of "a published source says what it says, no need for independent sources" is the "plot" section of e.g. David Copperfield. It cites no sources. You can verify it by reading the book. Maproom (talk) 12:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Any similar previous discussions?

Can someone pl. help in finding previous discussions, similar to the case discussed in this section above, from archives of this notice board or any other discussion, if possible? Bookku (talk) 00:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Since some users dealing first time to such question seem to find the question complex, or difficult to understand. It's much likely that similar issue would have been discussed and some old timers may be aware or at least able to get into the nitty-gritty. Below I could collate few old discussions and active old timers of this notice board from xtools. If user of either side of discussion wishes to request more inputs from them then in case you ping then ping all active ones from following.

Finding active old timers from this notice board for inputs

Finding exact similar instantaneously from archives or talk pages is huge task, but in archives I could have few following discussions where users seem discussing some complex aspects: Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 15#Original scientific works Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 51#Is this OR by synthesis? Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 6#author's own work WP:OR for quotes? From this xtools still active among most active users on this notice board: User:Blueboar User:The Four Deuces, User:Viriditas, User:Doug Weller, User:Masem

Bookku (talk) 06:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• To anwswer User:Louis P. Boog's question: No, it's not OR if you paraphrase the views and statements by Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen from their own with in-text attribution. You might however violate the principle of WP:due weight by doing so, since both are not independent secondary sources. Sources that engage in exegesis within the framework of their own faith are always to be considered primary sources for Wikipedia being an indepedent encyclopedia, even if these sources are considered secondary sources within the framework of their own faith since they base their exegesis on a thorough review of earlier Islamic scholarship.

The mention of Ibn Taymiyya is based on a independent secondary source (Nünlist), so this is unproblematic since Wikipedia reflects. If there is however no independent source that presents a specific viewpoint of a specific Islamic scholar (here: Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen's views on the importance of the belief in the existence of Jinns), why should we do so? By doing so, we don't reflect, but rather promote that specific viewpoint by giving it more space here than it has ever received in the relevant literature that we base our encyclopedia on.

This is not necessarily a hard rule. Consensus and editorial judgement can still come to a different result, e.g. when multiple other viewpoints by the same religious scholar are widely cited in independent sources, which indicates that their voice is relevant within their field. But of course, it would be much better if the relevance of Abul A'la Maududi and Fethullah Gülen's views on this matter is evidenced by an independent secondary source that cites/mentions them. –Austronesier (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

To reply to Austronesier, But if a search of JSTOR yields 310 hits for Abul A'la Maududi and 592 results for Fethullah Gülen, that may indicate the notability of those scholars/preachers but is not allowed because it is WP:SYNTH, right? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, there is no element of original research on our part if we mention them, therefore it's only a matter of due weight, not WP:SYNTH (and other OR-issues). Have you already specifically tried to find a secondary source that talks about their views on the belief in jinns? The JSTOR count is only partially helpful especially in the case of Gülen. Many of the sources in the search result most probably don't cover such theological details, but more likely discuss the sociopolitical impact of Gülen and his movement. –Austronesier (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• I think the question to discuss here is WP:UNDUE not WP:OR. It is not WP:OR to note that these two scholars said what they said… it might be WP:UNDUE to note that they said it. (I am not familiar enough with the topic to fully judge, but the 600 year gap between ibn Taymiyya and the two more modern scholars in question makes me suspicious… if the existence of Jinn was central to Islam, surely other scholars would have talked about this in the interim?) Blueboar (talk) 17:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar: @Louis P. Boog: @Bookku: Well, there is another Muslim scholar mentioned in the same source who holds the same opinion and position as them, but his name is not included in the article! I think Fakhr al-Din al-Razi should be added in the article along with Ibn Hazm and Ibn Taymiyya.🤓

@Blueboar: The following is a quotation which appears in the same source at page 33:

Dämonenglaube im Islam

ORIGINAL: (in German)
Anderseits verweist Ibn Hazm ähnlich wie Ibn Taymiyya darauf, dass sich die Muslime in der Bejahung der Existenz von Dämonen einig seien (agma'a, igmä). Auch die Christen, Zoroastrier, Sabier und die meisten Juden, hier mit Ausnahme der Samaritaner, würden sich zustimmend zum Geisterglauben äußern. Ibn Hazm schließt seine Überlegungen zur Existenz von ginn mit der folgenden, für die Position traditionalistischer Kreise bezeichnenden Bemerkung: "Wer die ginn leugnet oder über sie Umdeutungen ersinnt, durch die er sie aus der äußeren Welt hinausdrängt, ist ein ungläubiger Polytheist (käfir mušrik), dessen Blut und Besitz vogelfrei sind (haläl ad-dam wa-äl-mäl)." Mit dieser Aussage brandmarkt Ibn Ḥazm das Leugnen der ǧinn als kufr (Unglaube) und bezeichnet all jene als vogelfrei, die die tatsächliche Existenz von Dämonen nicht akzeptieren.

TRANSLATION: (in English), automatically translated by Google Translate.
On the other hand, Ibn Hazm, like Ibn Taymiyya, points out that Muslims are united in affirming the existence of demons (agma'a, igmä). Christians, Zoroastrians, Sabians and most Jews, with the exception of the Samaritans, would also express their approval of the belief in ghosts. Ibn Hazm concludes his reflections on the existence of ginn with the following remark, which is representative of the position of traditionalist circles: "Whoever denies the ginn or thinks up new interpretations of it by which he pushes it out of the external world is an unbelieving polytheist (käfir mušrik), whose blood and property are outlaws (haläl ad-dam wa-äl-mäl)." With this statement, Ibn Ḥazm brands the denial of the Jinn as kufr (disbelief) and describes as outlaws all those who do not accept the actual existence of demons.

Tobias Nünlist, "Dämonenglaube im Islam". p. 33.

If you have some free time and are interested in lending a hand, please take a quick look at the talk page. You will find there several sources that confirm what is written above in bold. Thank you.--TheEagle107 (talk) 00:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheEagle107 I suppose the other side user VFF too is not contesting contents mentioned in relevant secondary academic literature. In above what you are bringing to attentions is good for you to discuss at upcoming RfC as WP:DUE weight. (May I request you to collapse the quote and translation part above).

Here question brought by User LPB was about technical and complex aspects of WP:OR. Over all consensus seem to be forming OR is not much concern in this case; but side note suggestions seem to be importance of weighing content on other counts like supporting with whether it has been talked about by other scholars importance of Jinn to Islam in the interim centuries? foremost is whether substantially supported by secondary academic sources for the relevant content last but not least WP:DUE.

I suppose every one will agree that inputs presented by users in this discussion are truly enlightening. I would request and fore see some of above inputs to get incorporated in FAQ and Wikipedia essays. (My emphasis). Bookku (talk) 02:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Anna Panagiotopoulou original research

In the article Anna Panagiotopoulou the User:KNIM123 insists - contrary to all reliable secondary sources - on putting as the year of birth of the actress, his own information, as he clearly states on his talk page . The conversation was made in greek but and here is the translation. I know it personally. His name is not Damoulakos, but Damoulakis. And as a source there is an article about her funeral that mentions the name Dimitris Damoulakis as her son. Also, she was born in 1945, not 1947, the electoral registers verify this, citing the following information on the Ministry of Interior's "Find out where you vote" platform: DAMOULAKI ANNA ANDREAS ANDREAS 1945. Please restore my edition D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Misandry original research

The Misandry article has what I consider original research, mainly in the lead, but it can also be seen here:

Anthropologist David D. Gilmore coined a similar term—"viriphobia"—to show that misandry typically targets the virile male machismo, "the obnoxious manly pose", along with the oppressive male roles of patriarchy. Gilmore says that misandry is not the hatred of men as men; this kind of loathing is present only in misogyny which is the hatred of women as women.

Gilmore is just one author with his own set of beliefs:

• "to show that" really ought to be changed to "argues that"
• "Gilmore says that" should become "Gilmore claims that"
• "this kind of loathing" should be changed to "he argues that this kind of loathing".

This article appears to be highly protected by Binksternet, an editor who has been blocked 11 times in the past, and someone who states that misogyny is "1000 times worse" than misandry, and I believe he really should not be editing this article at all in my opinion.

The part that has been highly debated is this line:

"This viewpoint is denied by most sociologists, anthropologists and scholars of gender studies, who counter that misandry is not a cultural institution, nor equivalent in scope to misogyny, which is far more deeply rooted in society, and more severe in its consequences."

I actually analyzed the three sources with Sangdeboeuf (there is a lengthy discussion on the talk page).

• Source 1 (2001 book): [9] (page 12)

Do women return the favor the favor by hating men and inventing magical dangers? The answer seems to be a resounding no. Male-hating among women has no popular name because it has never (at least not until recently) achieved apotheosis as a social fact, that is, it has never been reified into public culturally recognized and approved institutions complete with their own theatrical repertory and constituent mythology and magic.

• Source 2 (2007 book): [10] (page 442-443)

Despite contrary claims, misandry lacks the systemic, transhistoric, institutionalised and legislated antipathy of misogyny.

• Source 3 (1989 book): [11] (page 7) - this source has essentially nothing to do with backing up the claims and is just an author asking random rhetorical questions.

Basically, what the three references actually say can be summed up as:

"In cultures around the world, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny."

Bink refuses to modify the original statement to this, calling it "whitewashing" in order to protect his original research, which are these lines in particular:

(*) Most sociologists/anthropologists/scholars of gender studies... (no proof that "most")

(*) Misandry is not a cultural institution (source 1 only mentions that misandry among women is not recognized as a cultural institution in a 2001 perspective -- 23 years ago. It is also simply in the context of how women view men. Source 2 is only in comparison in misogyny, and again it's from a 2007 perspective)

(*) Misogyny is "far more" deeply rooted in society (should be changed to simply "more" because "far more" is hyperbole not said in the sources)

(*) Misogyny is more severe in its consequences

Additionally, the debated paragraph is trying to make it seem as if these authors (from 2001 and 2007) are trying to reject viewpoints held by more modern discussion of misandry, 17 years into the future. For example, the original authors were not trying to refute that "misandry is widespread" in a 2010s or 2020s world. It's pure editorializing. These two 2001 and 2007 books are dated, and the article is written from an extreme myopic Western perspective, making bold and broad claims that ignore the cultures of South America, Mexico, Africa, Europe, Asia, etc. We are to write our articles in an up-to-date 2024 universal perspective.

When I pointed out that the article is adding statements and making suggestions that were not said in the sources, Bink became defensive and told me changing the article is "not gonna happen". I left a comment on 21:01, 14 May 2024 basically explicitly calling him out, and he then tried to use the excuse that he was just trying to summarize the sources, despite that he is clearly adding statements that the sources were not saying. For example, "[misogyny] is more severe in its consequences" was not said in the sources.

Additionally, the misogyny article contains an awful line: "Misandry is a minor issue" simply based on an interpretation of the reading of the 2001 book. It's basically saying the prejudice of half of humanity is a "minor issue" which is horrid. ImmersiveOne (talk) 12:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a content issue, not an original research issue. ImmersiveOne does not understand that we summarize the literature in the lead section, in accordance with the guideline at Wikipedia:Summary style. The article in question summarizes a wide swath of scholarly literature which is the best possible sourcing. A consensus exists among scholars, and we relay this consensus to the reader by using a clearly focused summary of the sources. ImmersiveOne has a problem with this because the scholarly consensus does not agree with ImmersiveOne's personal experience or viewpoint.

There's nothing to do here; no original research. Binksternet (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that it's not OR. Instead it is an NPOV issue and the relevant guideline is WP:INTEXT. Opinions, especially those likely to be contentious, should be attributed to whoever is making the opinion and not stated as fact in wikivoice. Looking only at the examples at the top of this section, I don't see any problem with "Gilmore says...", but "to show that" is not good and is also bad writing (terms designate things, they don't show things). Zero^talk 15:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

In my eyes, Bink should have to prove what "most" scholars (in 2024) think using reliable sources, instead of just vaguely claiming it's their consensus, and I don't have the time/energy to go through 60 sources. And in my opinion, the 2023 study should not count because it's only one study and it's discussing misandry in relation to feminist stereotypes. To me, information and such broad claims like that should be cited with references that actually support the claims. When people generalize and try to claim what a consensus is, and sources are not necessarily saying what they are actually saying, there is room for bias. Anyway, I'm so exhausted at this point so I'm going... ImmersiveOne (talk) 15:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That would be awfully convenient for you, to get rid of the very authoritative 2023 meta-analysis performed by 40+ topic scholars, which says exactly what you don't want to have in the article. Again, this is a content issue, not any kind of original research. ImmersiveOne doesn't like the content of the article, and is the only one voicing an opinion in that direction at Talk:Misandry. Talk page consensus is against ImmersiveOne; this forum is another attempt to get leverage. Binksternet (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the WP:LEAD of the article, it summarizes 60 sources, not just some that were cited inline. As we already tried to explain to you on the talk page, whether the lead has inline citations for every single line or not is up to the discretion of local consensus, which is clearly in favor of the lead as it stands. The article discusses all sources in the relevant sections in more detail.

Multiple very experienced editors, including administrators have explained to you on the talk page these policies and the consensus of the article based on all the sources of it.

You were asked repeatedly to provide any WP:RS to back your claims for changes, but have not provided any other than referencing MRA Reddit’s which are called out in the very article. Raladic (talk) 18:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's what the proposed changes (in bold) to the paragraph about Gilmore would look like in context:

Anthropologist David D. Gilmore coined a similar term—"viriphobia"—argues that misandry typically targets the virile male machismo... What?

Gilmore claims that misandry is not the hatred of men as men... This downplays the source's reliability by using the loaded WP:CLAIM.

He argues that this kind of loathing is present only in misogyny which is the hatred of women as women. Needlessly repetitive; the statement is merely expanding on the previous one, Gilmore says, etc. as indicated by the semicolon linking the two independent clauses. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I originally meant "to argue that", I have nerve damage in my hands due to a childhood incident so I'm prone to texting errors... ImmersiveOne (talk) 20:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment I agree there are systemic issues of using wiki voice where it shouldn't be used and failing to attribute controversial opinions to specific writers; which ultimately presents as fact something that is only opinion. Any controversial facts in the lead need to be attributed in the lead or removed entirely from lead summary. We can not use wiki voice without attribution on POV opinions, even in summary. While this is also a WP:POV problem it has blossomed into a WP:VERIFYOR violation (see Neutral Point of View section). It was absolutely appropriate to bring this issue to the noticeboard, and many of the examples of systemic problems raised by ImmersiveOne seem pertinent and reasonable under that guideline. The text should be appropriately modified per WP:INTEXT to solve the problem.4meter4 (talk) 18:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, 4meter4. It makes me feel less insane.

I would like to point out, if people are going claim the collective sources (60 of them) say things like "misogyny has worse consequences", "misandry is not a cultural institution", etc, then I would like to ask: which ones? I just don't think the 2023 study is relevant as you claim it is. And I looked at some of the sources, and some of them support my point a bit, that misandry is rather prominent in society:

• Farrell, Warren (2001) The Myth of Male Power: Why Men are the Disposable Sex
• Everything written by Nathanson & Young
• A French book called "I Hate Men" sees a sales boom
• Cathy Young's article

I'm not the only one who thinks the Misandry article is a bit warped. People on other sites, people seen in the article history, as well people in the talk page archives have all pointed out the article has a tendency to suffer from neutrality issues. So yes, this is an attempt to get people talking. ImmersiveOne (talk) 18:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Nathanson and Young have made a "cottage industry" out of their activism against feminism. They are religious scholars who have left their area of expertise and decided instead to write extensively about gender issues. They do not have scholarly authority regarding gender issues; they are instead making up their own opinions (see Michael Kimmel's Angry White Men.) Misandry topic expert scholars would be found among anthropologists, PhDs of gender studies, sociologists, etc. More than forty such scholars combined their expertise to author the 2023 study which examined the misandry issue thoroughly, calling it a myth. The findings of the 40+ scholars, and all the other cited scholars, are so authoritative that they are properly presented in wikivoice. 4meter4's suggestion of converting this wikivoice to inline attribution is misguided because a strong scholarly consensus exists. We are not relaying to the reader the "opinions" of researchers; we are relaying their statistical findings and their expert analysis. Nothing major should be changed at the article. Binksternet (talk) 19:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Bink, dude, come on. Just let it go, man. Wikipedia does not state controversial opinions (or anything that can qualify as an opinion) as if they are facts, even in leads. There are a lot of people who argue sexism harms men more than women, that misandry has worse consequences than misogyny (forced conscription says hi), and that misandry is more deeply ingrained within humanity (women-are-wonderful effect). Even if the vast majority of scholars agree on something, even if 1% of these scholars say "I disagree", then we don't use wiki voice. The misandry and misogyny articles (and possibly even the sexism article) are violating Wikipedia policies. You, Raladic and Grayfell can try to pressure people all you want, but the three of you were lacking knowledge in Wikipedia's own policies. Intimidation tactics do not work on me. Me, Zero, 4meter4 and Remsense have pointed out the article clearly suffers a neutrality issue. ImmersiveOne (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

'Controversial' is not a synonym for 'some Wikipedia editors disagree'. When a field has arrived at a consensus we should not over-attribute, just as we don't write things like 'According to the NASA Administrator, the earth is round'. We should not cast the mainstream consensus of academia as just somebody's opinion. MrOllie (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we really comparing controversial heated debated subjects and opinions like "is misandry widespread?", "does sexism primarily affect men or women?", "which sex has more consequences as a result of gender prejudice?" and "is misogyny or misandry more rooted in society?" to "is the Earth flat or round?" now? Seriously, this is the second time our discussion has been compared to Flat Earth theory. ImmersiveOne (talk) 21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The Manosphere has a lot in common with flat earthers - they are both fringe groups railing against the mainstream. MrOllie (talk) 21:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Men's rights are human rights. You are literally comparing a group of people who want better treatment for half the human race (such as the same prison sentence length, bodily autonomy, freedom to opt out of being a soldier in warfare, etc...) to a literal conspiracy group who thinks the Earth is flat. Both are minorities, sure, but we should be able to admit that the gender topics I listed above are subjective, and whether or not the planet we live on is flat/round is objective. We should be able to admit these gender topics are subjective and opinionated enough to not use wiki voice. People like have been straight-up listing subjective opinions as facts. And then people like Bink/Raladic/Grayfell have been using mainstream views in order to justify this, and then telling me to "WP:DROPTHESTICK" and leave the debate because of how stubborn I am. Anyone who edits Wikipedia should know you do not list anything that can be considered a subjective opinion as fact. This is basic Wikipedia 101, and Bink failed to understand this concept even after he has like 500,000 edits on this site. An example of this is "[misogyny] is far more deeply rooted in society, and more severe in its consequences." That's a freaking subjective opinion being pushed as an objective fact on the misandry article as we speak. ImmersiveOne (talk) 21:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS - Wikipedia is not the place to try to prove that the fringe position is the correct position. We reflect the mainstream view here, even if you might think the mainstream is getting it wrong. MrOllie (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to prove the minority position is the correct one. I'm trying to prove these topics are contested, debated, subjective, and opinionated enough that we don't use an objective tone while describing them. Otherwise we end up seeing biased, asinine and embarrassing "objective" (not really) claims like "misandry is a minor issue" on the misogyny article. ImmersiveOne (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, we should not (through over attribution or otherwise) make the mainstream view sound like it is just one competing opinion. MrOllie (talk) 22:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

We don't have to. At the end of the day, the mainstream view is still an opinion, but we do not have to make it sound as if it being highly contested. We can easily do this by being fair, neutral and level-headed writers. To me, it is painfully obvious there is enough dissent and subjectivity in these gender topics that Wikipedia must fix the NPOV prose on these articles. Anyway, I'm out. I'm getting a massive headache after dealing with this for 5 days. I need a few days vacation for myself. I invite more people to leave their feedback and for more eyes to see this whole debate. I can't deal with this anymore. ImmersiveOne (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Literally any mainstream view can be described as just an opinion. No one has ever seen the Higgs boson with their own eyes; instead, physicists rely on theoretical modeling and indirect observations. But we don't say, In the opinion of many physicists, the Higgs particle is a massive scalar boson with a zero spin, even (positive) parity, no electric charge and no colour charge. The evidence is sufficiently strong to treat these as facts.

The same is true for the mainstream scholarly position on questions like, "is misandry widespread?", "does sexism primarily affect men or women?", "which sex has more consequences as a result of gender prejudice?" and "is misogyny or misandry more rooted in society?". The answers are not controversial to published experts in the field. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The views of Warren Farrell, Paul Nathanson, Katherine K. Young, and Cathy Young (no relation) are given too much weight in the article as is. None of these individuals are subject-matter experts.

Farrell has some training as a political scientist, but his later writings are not academically vetted at all and are disregarded by sociologists such as Allan G. Johnson, who writes that Farrell's book The Myth of Male Power relies on a "very narrow definition" of power that excludes the very forms of power used to oppress women and minorities.

Nathanson & Young publish their criticisms of "misandry" in the popular press, not academic journals, and actual sociologists like Michael Kimmel decry the "bad history" in their writing.

Kathy Young's essay is just a newspaper op-ed. Citing these sources as though they are equivalent to peer-reviewed scholarship is extremely UNDUE. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 18:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Noting here that this is not an accurate record of this conversion as it happened because ImmersiveOne has been editing their comments after they have been replied to. - MrOllie (talk) 23:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I just wanted to clarify a few things due to people not understanding Wikipedia basics. I'm an extremely new editor so I don't know many policies, but even I know editors should not list subjective opinions as facts. Anyway, now I'm out. ImmersiveOne (talk) 23:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a big difference between an opinion piece and the scientific finding of research scholars that publish said findings in peer reviewed journals, which we consider one of the most reliable type of sources - these are not some mere opinions and us summarizing said findings, similarly does not make them opinions.

Also please assume good faith and be cautious with throwing around accusations of other editors as this can run afoul of WP:NPA. You have already been warned about this on your talk page. Raladic (talk) 03:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The role of peer reviewed journals in policy is not what you claim it is. Although they have our highest a priori status for factual information, they can be challenged like any source and opinions in them are still opinions. The simplest proof that opinions in such sources do not automatically have the status of facts is that multiple contradictory opinions appear in them. A scholarly opinion becomes closer to fact for our purposes when it is the scholarly consensus; merely being offered as an opinion in a good source is not enough. Zero^talk 15:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I know I said I wanted a break, but I think it would be good to take care of some things now, with experienced people who know Wikipedia policies chiming in to create a neutral POV. Honestly, I don't really care about proving whether "most" sociologists believe something -- that's 60 sources to go through and it was never really my issue with the article, my issue was mainly because it seemed the citations were not supporting the claims, as well as the wiki voice being improperly used. I want to know if these changes can be justified:

(before) This viewpoint is denied by most sociologists, anthropologists and scholars of gender studies, who counter that misandry is not a cultural institution, nor equivalent in scope to misogyny, which is far more deeply rooted in society, and more severe in its consequences.

(after) This viewpoint is denied by most sociologists, anthropologists and scholars of gender studies, who argue that misandry is not a cultural institution equivalent in scope to misogyny.

I think the "which is far more deeply rooted in society, and more severe in its consequences" is improper wiki voice, and also, it's just incredibly bad taste to compare prejudice like that so I think it should be removed entirely.

(before) The false idea that misandry is commonplace among feminists is so widespread that it has been called the "misandry myth" by 40 topic experts.

(after) A study analyzing if misandry is more commonplace among feminists suggests that it is not as common as many people believe.

Are these changes justifiable according to experienced editors and Wikipedia policies? We all have to decide on something to go with.

And can "Misandry is a minor issue, not equivalent to the widespread practice and extensive history of misogyny" be entirely removed from the misogyny article? It's also using wiki voice to turn an opinion into fact, it's using the interpretation of a single 2001 book as a source (so it can be considered as pushing outdated views), and it's honestly irrelevant to defining misogyny. Seems it exists just as a quick jab to downplay misandry's importance ImmersiveOne (talk) 18:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No one has yet presented any evidence whatsoever that the views of Gilmore (2001) are outdated. "Outdated" does not just mean "old". The fact that you personally find the author's conclusions horrid is the same as WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. I also sense a double standard at work; if the source claimed instead that misandry was a major issue, would you be trying to dismiss it as irrelevant? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Nor would I call Gilmore's analysis of misandry a quick jab. While it's not the focus of the book, he devotes a full page and a half to answering the question of whether misandry exists as a "reciprocal analogue" to misogyny, concluding that the answer is a "resounding no". Your personal belief that misandry is not a "minor issue" based on commentary by an antifeminist YouTuber has no bearing on the reliability of the source whatsoever. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

On your argument against The false idea that misandry is commonplace among feminists is so widespread that it has been called the "misandry myth" by 40 topic experts. - The 2023 study is a meta-analysis co-authored by 40 expert scholars of the field of and published in the Psychology of Women Quarterly journal, which is ranked the highest impact journal in Women Studies and one of the highest in Psychology all up. They have strongly refuted the false stereotype, which is why they summarized it as such and called it a myth. It is absolutely appropriate to have summarized it as such.

Your proposal to water down the scientific findings of experts on the topic because you personally may not like them isn't how Wikipedia operates. Wikipedia is not a place to promote personal world views if they don't align with that of expert scholars on the topic. Raladic (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

By "outdated", I merely meant he was speaking in the context of a world 23 years ago. About the "misandry is a minor issue", it feels like a non-sequitur, and I meant the phrasing of it ("minor issue") felt like a quick jab, not the book being a quick jab. I read the book and I wouldn't interpret that as Gilmore trying to say "misandry is a minor issue", but rather something like, "society does not recognize misandry as a cultural institution like misogyny is." He also used "seems to be a resounding no", not that it is a "resounding no." I have many other reasons to believe misandry is not a minor issue, it's definitely not something I came to solely based on a Shoe0nHead video. I love her content, though. A study is also simply a study. When we use language like "false idea" as if it is a fact, it feels going too far, even if it is 40 research experts. It should at least be "strongly suggests it is a false idea." If a study by 40 topic experts suggests eggs are healthy, we don't use the language "the idea that eggs are unhealthy is a false idea" as if it were fact. I want to finish this up and let other people not involved in the Talk:Misandry discussion decide. ImmersiveOne (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To show that the source by Gilmore is outdated requires more recent sources of comparable quality that actually contradict it. Not just drawing an arbitrary boundary between today and the world 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, etc. Albert Einstein published his theory of general relativity over a century ago and it is still considered the most successful explanation of gravity and cosmology. It isn't "outdated" just because it's older than most people alive today. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Just one more clarification before I leave, I also meant the Wikipedia editor's phrasing of how they interpreted the book ("misandry is a minor issue") was horrid, not that whatever Gilmore's conclusions were was horrid. To me, I see editorializing. ImmersiveOne (talk) 20:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I think it should be noted that "misandry is a minor issue" was added by Bink as his interpretation of it. ImmersiveOne (talk) 20:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Whatever your reasons to believe misandry is not a minor issue, Wikipedia articles are not based on users' personal beliefs or experiences. That's what published, reliable sources are for. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thinking something is in bad taste has nothing to do with either WP:OR or WP:NPOV. Wikipedia is not censored to suit your or anyone else's delicate sensibilities. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

First, agreed with the above that this is irrelevant to NOR. You want WP:NPOVN (which is about how well we neutrally summarize source material). But since we're here...

I was about to agree with the first part of the original comment -- what in the world is such detail about Gilmore doing in the lead?? -- but then I realized I misread and that was from the body. As far as that content goes, I agree it should be copyedited. to show that misandry typically targets the virile male machismo is just awkward. How does coining a term ever "show" anything beyond showing one's ability to coin a term? Keep the content and just tweak it a la "viriphobia, in line with his view that misandry targets the virile male machismo".

As for the other disputed claim, This viewpoint is denied..., that's not remotely controversial. It's perhaps even conservative to limit its rejection to sociologists, anthropologists, and gender studies. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I left a little note directing them to here. Also, I'm aware that it's definitely what "most" scholars think, but my issue with it was mainly the latter parts being presented in fact, the fact that it was being in a way to make it seem people in the past were trying to debate people in the future, and the three citations not supporting the claims. We should focus on everything else about the article. ImmersiveOne (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

As I stated on the talk page, we can adjust the sentence order to fix the past/future issue, and omit the questionable phrase "most sociologists" etc. I would suggest a change similar to the following:

−

Men's rights activists (MRAs) and other masculinist groups have characterized modern laws concerning divorce, domestic violence, conscription, circumcision (known as male genital mutilation by opponents), and treatment of male rape victims as examples of institutional misandry. In the Internet Age, users posting on manosphere internet forums such as 4chan and subreddits addressing men's rights activism have claimed that misandry is widespread, established in preferential treatment of women, and shown by discrimination against men. This viewpoint is denied by most sociologists, anthropologists and scholars of gender studies, who counter that misandry is not a cultural institution, nor equivalent in scope to misogyny, which is far more deeply rooted in society, and more severe in its consequences.

+

Men's rights activists (MRAs) and other masculinist groups have characterized modern laws concerning divorce, domestic violence, conscription, circumcision (known as male genital mutilation by opponents), and treatment of male rape victims as examples of institutional misandry. However, in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support comparable to misogyny. In the Internet Age, users posting on manosphere internet forums such as 4chan and subreddits addressing men's rights activism have claimed that misandry is widespread, established in preferential treatment of women, and shown by discrimination against men.

As MrOllie says, we shouldn't make the mainstream view sound like it is just one of many equally valid opinions. I'm fine with the copy edits suggested by Rhododendrites as well. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:07, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Quick chime in, I argue "in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support comparable to misogyny" is still highly subjective and an improper use of wiki voice. If you go onto the conscription article, look at all the countries in purple and red. Circumcision is still legal in many countries. And I'm sure people could write entire essays about how boys and men are at a disadvantage. And you already know why I think the word "comparable" is in bad taste and going too far. We're talking about 2024 perspective, and I think the claim is far too broad, speaking on the behalf of too many cultures. As 4meter4 said, the article as it is a WP:VERIFYOR violation. Wikipedia's policy is no matter what someone believes, they must WP:PROVEIT using RS. And in the lens of a 2024 world, I think it would be incredibly challenging to do (you would have a point about the Middle East, but it's not like Canadian women in 2024 are severely oppressed and fighting for the right to vote). ImmersiveOne (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure people could write entire essays about how boys and men are supposedly at a disadvantage. But saying "there must be sources" does not satisfy the requirement to actually provide sources.

The phrase virtually all societies is paraphrasing Gilmore (2001): There are virtually no existing examples of culturally constituted antimale complexes in traditional cultures (p. 12). The context for this is an inquiry into misogyny as it occurs and has occurred in cultures around the world (p. 8). So we can infer that when Gilmore says Male-hating among women [...] has never been reified into public culturally recognized and approved institutions, he is talking about virtually all societies.

Your objections to this statement (e.g. circumcision, voting rights) are essentially your personal opinions, based on some low-quality (including self-published) sources by non-experts. A Wikipedia article in particular is not a reliable source. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It should still be in the language "In 2001, author David D. Gilmore said that in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny." to remove the authoritarian wiki voice (as well as add some historical context) imo. Anything more than that would need RS I believe. ImmersiveOne (talk) 14:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Once again, it should not be phrased as though it is just Gilmore's opinion. Watering down the language because you happen to disagree (or based on a claim that it is 'subjective') really is not something that is done on Wikipedia. MrOllie (talk) 14:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

"In 2001, author David D. Gilmore said that in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny. Many scholars agree with this view." (with a link to source 2 here) Sound fine to everyone? If so, that's one half of this already over, with us just needing to decide what to do with the "false idea" part of the 2023 study. ImmersiveOne (talk) 15:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

No. Gilmore's conclusion was not taken into consideration by the 40+ authors of the 2023 meta-analysis. Other scholars that don't cite Gilmore cannot be assumed to based on Gilmore. The lack of Gilmore cites in other works makes it appear that most scholars are doing their own research and analysis, not simply "agree"-ing with Gilmore. Your suggested wording is watering down the broad consensus of scholars. Binksternet (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

"In 2001, author David D. Gilmore said that in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny. Most scholars agree that misandry lacks the systemic, transhistoric, institutionalised and legislated antipathy of misogyny."

"The idea that misandry is commonplace among feminists is so widespread that it has been called the "misandry myth" by 40 topic experts in a study which strongly suggests this belief is a misconception."

We all happy? ImmersiveOne (talk) 22:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

In-text attribution like author David D. Gilmore said is unnecessary and makes it seem like Gilmore's view is just one of many alternative viewpoints. Once again, there is no serious scholarly debate on whether misandry is equivalent to misogyny in any society. The second sentence just tacks on Most scholars agree to a phrase lifted directly from Ouellette (2007). This is likely a copyright violation as well as being weaselly and repetitive. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

We were literally just told by Zero, an admin on this site for over 20 years (and others), that text is improperly using wiki voice to anything that can be considered a subjective opinion, and we must use WP:INTEXT. There are enough MRAs, professors interested in men's activism, as well as everyday people who could debate that line or consider it an opinion. Mentioning the year is also important for historical context. We don't automatically just state the scholarly consensus as a fact. We can change "said" to "stated", and we can change the second sentence to Most scholars agree that misandry lacks the institutionalised legislature of misogyny. We could also begin it with Scholars such as Marc Ouellette agree that... But that's it as far as it goes, I believe. Unless you can propose something better, we're at a standstill. ImmersiveOne (talk) 09:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Admins don't have any special authority in content disputes. What MRAs, professors interested in men's activism, as well as everyday people believe is irrelevant. Wikipedia articles are based on published, reliable sources by experts in their field. The only reason to consider the historical context of a given source is if scholarly consensus has meaningfully changed.

You initially objected to the phrase most sociologists, anthropologists and scholars of gender studies as original research; tacking most scholars agree... or scholars such as... onto the views of a single author is no different. The phrase institutionalised legislature is simple gibberish. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

We don't automatically just state the scholarly consensus as a fact. <--- This misunderstanding seems to be the root of your difficulties here. We do not treat the scholarly consensus as just another opinion to be attributed to someone. MrOllie (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Seriously? Admins don't have any special authority in disputes?! Then who does? I can't believe this is where we are right now: ignoring what the people who run this site tell us! I know you want in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny said as straight-up fact so bad, but that claim is subjective, especially when you use the language "virtually all societies" and keep in mind the 2024 perspective. And I only tacked that language to try to satisfy Bink, but it seems he can not be satisfied here. Bink has had a grip on this article since 2011, you've had a grip on it since 2017. I'm getting WP:TAGTEAM vibes. This article has become a laughing stock. If anyone else is reading this, please add to this conversation. ImmersiveOne (talk) 14:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is run by many volunteer users, only some of whom are administrators. Nobody has any special authority in content disputes, which are resolved by consensus. The role of an admin is primarily concerned with policy and editor conduct, not deciding content issues. We even have a policy against use of admin tools in disputes where admins are personally involved.

If you have evidence of misconduct by either Binksternet or myself, you want Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you have a reliable source for the 2024 perspective beyond vague assertions of what everyday people believe, feel free to present it here. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 15:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Gilmore is also a professor of anthropology, not just an author. At a certain point it's just more concise and readable to state mainstream scholarly "opinion" as fact rather than attributing each statement to its author. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 15:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, me, Zero and 4meter mentioned the importance of WP:INTEXT being used in this article. My stance is that anything that can easily be considered a subjective opinion should not be in wiki voice, and that bears more weight here. You (Sangdeboeu)/Bink/Grayfell/Raladic/MrOllie give me WP:TAGTEAM vibes. I think it's time to let other people chime in. ImmersiveOne (talk) 15:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

So a head count is useful when it agrees with you, but when it disagrees with you it's "tag teaming". Once again, WP:ANI is thataway for any conduct disputes. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 15:49, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Admins have the authority to enforce Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Sometimes that means actively preventing something from appearing in articles even if it means blocking someone or protecting an article. That does not count as participating in a "content dispute". However, once an admin starts to edit an article except to enforce policies, they become "involved" and should leave the policy enforcement to a different admin. There isn't a very clear definition of when the transition occurs. Anyway, I'm only here to state my opinion on policy and I have no intention at the moment to look at the article. Several things are confused in this discussion. First, an opinion is an opinion regardless of where it appears. Second, we are allowed to report the "scholarly consensus" without attribution but first we need a reason other than our own likes and dislikes for why it really is the scholarly consensus. If there is a significant amount of scholarly writing that disagrees with the writing we like, then there is no scholarly consensus and we are supposed to report both sides of the debate (see NPOV) and INTEXT explains how. It's impossible to define "significant" objectively, but mainly it means that the dissenting opinions come from sources which themselves meet the standards of RS and don't meet the definition of FRINGE (these rules to some extent disagree with each other). Finally, you aren't allowed to write "Most scholars believe..." or similar unless you have a reliable source which says that most scholars believe; that would be a very elementary violation of NOR. However, you can get away with "Many scholars, such as X and Y, ..." provided that you really know of "many" scholars. Zero^talk 16:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I tried making some of those points before, especially "an opinion is an opinion regardless of where it occurs" and that if people are going to claim scholarly consensus, they should still need to show RS where such phrasing occurs, as Gilmore/Marc Ouellette are only two authors. Hmm... maybe Many scholars, such as David D. Gilmore and Marc Ouellette, state that in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny is the way to go here. ImmersiveOne (talk) 16:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Are two authors many? If not, who are the others? This is just more weasel wording. Expecting an RS to state outright that the scholarly consensus is X is setting an impossible standard. We aren't making any claims in Wikivoice about the scholarly consensus, we're just summarizing the most reliable sources and avoiding fringe viewpoints as much as possible. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

"Many scholars" can become "scholars". If INTEXT is not used, then you are claiming the opinions of two men between 2001-2007 as the ultimate fact in a very grandiose manner imo. The article is the way it is now because Wikipedia editors are basically acting they get to decide what the scholarly consensus is without an RS explicitly stating it, I've only been vaguely told "oh, all the other sources basically agree with us so it's okay." ImmersiveOne (talk) 17:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The whole point is that it isn't just 'the opinions of two men'. You've been told this many times now. We're getting into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT territory. MrOllie (talk) 17:59, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I have been asking for any scholarly, non-fringe works that disagree with the views presented above. So far I haven't seen any, let alone in the present discussion. (I would definitely describe Nathanson & Young (2001) as fringe scholars.) So I think we have pretty good reasons to treat the views of Gilmore and Ouellete as the consensus, more or less. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 17:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why two men should have the ultimate say, especially when other authors/scholars/professors exist such as:

• Professor Roy Baumeister - Is there Anything Good About Men?: How Cultures Flourish by Exploiting Men
• Professor Janice Fiamengo - Sons of Feminism: Men Have Their Say (contains an Introduction describing the ways that men are abused, vilified, subjected to domestic violence, disbelieved, mistreated, falsely accused and much more.)
• Psychologist Helen Smith (ph.D) - Men on Strike: "Men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century."
• Christina Sommers (scholar at the American Enterprise Institute) - The War Against Boys: How Misguided Policies are Harming Our Young Men
• David Benatar - The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys
• Warren Farrell (American political scientist)
• Owen Strachan - The War on Men: Why Society Hates Them and Why We Need Them
• 2019 study: "Surprisingly, our new measure indicated that men are, on average, more disadvantaged than women in 91 countries compared with a relative disadvantage for women in 43 countries."
• 2023 study: "Participants in every category—men and women of all races, ages, and social classes—were quicker to associate positive attributes with women and negative attributes with men."

I haven't read every book to see what all of these men and women have to say, but these scholars exist. ImmersiveOne (talk) 18:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

ImmersiveOne: These aren't mainstream works of psychology but a mixture of research papers (WP:primary sources) and "provocative new idea" books. When misandry becomes more established as a mainstream theory we can revisit it. Until then it's time to accept consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 19:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

My point is, they are the views of people who hold Ph.Ds and they are still professors, psychologists, scholars and authors. It is also conducted scientific findings and research. It would be biased to ignore every author/study agreeing that "misandry is indeed rooted in society" and sweep their findings and opinions under the rug, so much so we state "in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny" as a fact. To me, it reeks of WP:UNDUE and we need a lot more voices in this discussion to obtain NPOV. ImmersiveOne (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The studies you linked to are indeed primary sources that are reporting on novel findings. They do not represent established academic knowledge. When evaluating scholarly consensus, we look for works that have been vetted by the scholarly community such as literature reviews in peer-reviewed journals or books from mainstream academic publishers.

City Journal is a magazine published by a conservative think tank, not a scholarly publication. Other researchers have identified problems with the 2023 study by Paul Connor et al.; see Talk:Misandry/Archive 6. The 2019 study authors actually say that "men's disadvantage is largely due to a shorter healthy lifespan", nothing to do with hatred of or prejudice against men.

The books listed here are mostly in the popular press. I've already stated the problems with using Warren Farrell as a source. Janice Fiamengo is a retired English professor. David Benatar is a philosopher and editor of the Journal of Controversial Ideas. Christina Hoff Sommers is a resident philosopher at a conservative think tank. Owen Strachan is a Calvinist theologian. None of these are sociologists, psychologists or anthropologists. Just because someone has a Ph.D. does not mean their views are in the mainstream; see Nobel disease.

Roy Baumeister is probably the only person with relevant academic expertise in this list, and his book apparently argues that "men compete with one another and build larger organizations and social networks from which culture grows. But cultures in turn exploit men by insisting that their role is to achieve and produce, to provide for others, and if necessary to sacrifice themselves." Is that the same as misandry? Ivana Milojević says this idea of male expendability is simply the result of patriarchy. Where does Baumeister say this has anything to do with hatred of men? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't Gilmore/Ouellette be considered primary sources as well? And what, Wikipedia is allowed to discredit sources/studies/reportings simply because they may come from conservative sources? I do not consider myself a conservative, but I think that would be going too far. And I thought Wikipedia was allowed to mention information from magazines. I wouldn't be against adding information about how that particular study could be flawed.

You're discrediting a professor just because she's retired? All professors eventually die or retire, it does not mean their writings and worth is suddenly rendered meaningless. Benatar's own Wikipedia also mentions he is an academic, and I think just because he's a member of that journal, it does not mean his book is entirely meaningless and I think it's a nitpicky reason to discredit his book. At the end of the day, he's still an academic who published a book. He is also a professor, and has a Bachelor of Social Science which focuses on Anthropology, History, Political Science, Psychology, and Sociology. Just because philosophy is his forte, it does not undermine his entire education.

Baumeister's book mentions that "it shows that while men have greatly benefited from the culture they have created, they have also suffered because of it. Men may dominate the upper echelons of business and politics, but far more men than women die in work-related accidents, are incarcerated, or are killed in battle--facts nearly always left out of current gender debates." I would have to do more research into his work, I admit. Still, he believes prejudice against men is indeed institutionalized to a degree.

One more study: Male gender bias deters men from some career paths ImmersiveOne (talk) 20:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Far more men than women die in work-related accidents, are incarcerated, or are killed in battle – where does Baumeister say this is because of institutionalized prejudice against men?

The book by Gilmore (2001) is a secondary source, i.e. it presents

analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. The source by Ouellette (2007) is an academic encyclopedia, which is a tertiary source, i.e. a synthesis of secondary sources.

Academics who publish books are not uncommon. Bachelor of Social Science degrees are a dime a dozen. Being an academic does not make someone a recognized expert, let alone in fields outside their specialty. Once again, we look for works that have been vetted by the scholarly community.

We have been talking about scholarly consensus. Now you want to open the article up to political propaganda from Koch-funded think tanks? Please make up your mind. It seems you are still working backwards from your own personal point of view instead of looking for the most reliable sources. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe those books I mentioned could be considered secondary sources too. Unfortunately, I do not have access to their content or bibliographies to see what they may be referencing, so I admit it's a moot point. Baumeister's book is a book about the scientific and cultural biases against men (as mentioned in a video called "Scientific Misandry — Roy Baumeister on Biases Against Men in Psychology and Sociology"). Prejudice is defined as "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." It's pretty obvious what the book is about and it feels like arguing semantics. He does not use the M-word because the book was published in 2010, and according to Google Trends, "misandry" was at its most popular in November 2014. The usage fell down, but now it's on the rise again.

I think the Misandry article is sorely lacking, not just in the opening but also in discussions about misandry in relation to philosophy, psychology, etc, so in my opinion, those books about misandry from philosophers are still worth mentioning somewhere else in the article. I do not own them, so I'm not going to try, though. My point was simply to show there's some dissent; of course their views are not mainstream (that was not the point I was trying to prove), but I hoped it was enough to make it so that part is not in wiki voice. Feels like no matter what I do, you're just going to discredit scholars and researchers. So fine, we can have that part in wiki voice, even if I disagree with it. Maybe in the future, there will be a lot more scholarly research into misandry, enough to remove the wiki voice.

"In virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support equivalent to misogyny."

"The idea that misandry is commonplace among feminists is so widespread that it has been called the "misandry myth" by 40 topic experts in a study which strongly suggests this belief is a misconception."

Can we agree to this? ImmersiveOne (talk) 22:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

No! The meta-analysis by 40+ scholars in 2023 resoundingly confirms the existing scholarly consensus. It doesn't just "strongly suggest". Your wording is a whitewash.

At this point, your continued hammering at the same argument amounts to WP:Tendentious editing. Persisting in this manner wastes the community's time and patience, and will likely get you blocked. Binksternet (talk) 22:41, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Various other editors (uninvolved at Talk:Misandry) all pointed out the article suffers neutrality issues, with two other editors saying there should be WP:INTEXT. I'm not going to get into another circular argument with you, Bink, and that "misandry is a minor issue" you wrote was an absolutely horrible cringey phrasing. I've made my points and I'm going. There's nothing else for me to argue anymore. ImmersiveOne (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Original research at Mulatto

User @MonsenorNouel is including the unsourced claim that "Brazil has the largest mulatto population in the world". None of the "sources" he provided explicitly state the claim. He is doing WP:SYNTH/WP:OR and therefore the claim must be removed. Some of the sources include blog posts, a link to a book store, and book titles with no page given whatsoever. Torimem (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Siege of Güns

Is this considered WP:OR?

Example:

• "Ottoman military action, however, was considerably less glorious than the triumphal arches and panoply that marked the sultan's progress. Impeded by heavy rain, Suleyman's army of some 100,000 men slowly made its way toward Vienna. Ibrahim Pasha committed the water-logged army to a siege of the small fortress of Koszeg (Guns), 100 kilometers southeast of Vienna, but by the time the defenders surrendered, the campaigning season was past." --Prophecy and Politics in Istanbul: Charles V, Sultan Suleyman, and the Habsburg Embassy of 1533-1534, "Journal of Early Modern History", Robert Finlay, page 13

Another example:

• "At one small fortress on the Austrian border, Günns (modern Koszeg, c.100 km south-east of Vienna), the entire Turkish army, some 100,000 regular troops, was held up by a garrison of less than 800 men." --"The Turks and Islam in Reformation Germany", Gregory J. Miller(Professor of History at Malone University), page 36.

How about this:

• "On the siege of Guns..[..].. see the very useful survey of events by Gertrud Gerhartl, "Die Niederlage der Turken em Steinfeld (1532)", who also believes however, that Suleiman's army consisted of 200,000 soldiers...." --The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, Volume III, Kenneth Meyer Setton, 365.

Can we place in the infobox of the article that Suleiman had an army of 100,000/200,000 men? Or is this considered WP:OR? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The only useful and verifiable source I see is from Miller. Finlay gives a number at a different place (which means it doesn't directly and explicitly support any claims for the Siege of Güns). Setton attributes a number to a source from 1532 without any strong indication that he agrees with that number. I do question the phrasing of the Miller source, though; he almost makes it sound like the 800 men besieged or obstructed the 100,000. That's a minor quibble, however. If no other historians agree with Miller, then the citation should be attributed as well. Woodroar (talk) 15:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The Gerhartl source isn't from 1532, it was published in 1974.[12] --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you're absolutely correct about the "1532" part, and I've struck that. I still don't see Setton giving much credence to those numbers. He begins the footnote with Numbers seem to have had little meaning for the sixteenth-century mind, before mentioning a source that gives 200,000 vs. 700,000. Setton then mentions Gerhartl's survey but says he also believes, however, that Suleiman's army consisted of 200,000 soldiers. To me, that "however" is Setton saying "this scholar put together a useful outline but even he's overestimating the numbers". Otherwise, why mention them only in a footnote about wildly inflated numbers? Woodroar (talk) 22:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Woodroar, while I mostly agree with you, I would say Finlay is usable. It describes the army at least at the inception of the siege, so for me, that would support the 100,000 man figure. As ever, reasonable minds may differ, however. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

That's fair. I will say that the Finlay source and our own article (Siege of Güns) gives a little more context than what's above, which perhaps explains why Finlay doesn't come out and say 100,000 men were at the siege. (I can get into that if you're interested.) But it's the same number as Miller so it may not be worth the spoons arguing about it. Woodroar (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• It is not Original Research to use numbers found in external sources (It would only be OR if we used our own calculation or analysis). That does not mean the numbers given in the sources are necessarily reliable (or at least reliable enough for an infobox). This strikes me as something that needs attribution… and you can’t do that in an infobox. Blueboar (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Gregorian Bivolaru

Hi, this is about [13]. Please chime in.

Meaning: could not invoke a 1989 document that had already been "annulled" by the 2011 court decision smacks of a priori reasoning. But we have 9 (nine) WP:RS that his defense pleaded he is legally insane during his extradition trial. So, empirical reality goes against her a priori reasoning. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:57, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Creating a truth table from law

As mentioned at Talk:Ages of consent in the United States#Washington: non-prosecute part, I have derived a truth table from the law regarding age of consent in the state of Washington. The source of this table can either be the actual laws 9A.44.073 - 093 or the Bill analysis. Would this truth table be origional research?

table showing ages of permissible sexual contact

Age 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20+ 9 Y Y ? N N N N N N N N N 10 Y Y Y ? N N N N N N N N 11 ? Y Y Y ? N N N N N N N 12 N ? Y Y Y Y ? N N N N N 13 N N ? Y Y Y Y ? N N N N 14 N N N Y Y Y Y Y Y ? N N 15 N N N ? Y Y Y Y Y Y ? N 16 N N N N ? Y Y Y Y Y Y Y 17 N N N N N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y 18 N N N N N ? Y Y Y Y Y Y 19 N N N N N N ? Y Y Y Y Y 20+ N N N N N N N Y Y Y Y Y Legend Y Permissible N Not permissible ? Permissible when the younger person's birth day and month is before the older person's

Subanark (talk) 20:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• I’m not sure if your chart violates our WP:Original research policy… but I would be concerned that the chart over-simplifies a topic that is usually FAR more nuanced than any simple chart could convey. Blueboar (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  The section of the law that covers the actual age is usually pretty simple; Washington state is unusual in that it is mildly complex. The choice right now is either to have the complex rules as is, replace the section with a "It is complicated" or similar language, remove the section or provide an alternate way of representing the data (e.g. a chart). A decision was recently made to remove the section on the grounds that it is better to error on the side of saying something is illegal than not.

  The chart is only covering this section (from the analysis):

  "A person commits a first degree offense if the victim is younger than 12 years old and, for Rape of a Child, the perpetrator is at least 24 months older than the victim, or, for Child Molestation, is at least 36 months older; a second degree offense if the victim is 12 or 13 years old and the perpetrator is at least 36 months older than the victim; and a third degree offense if the victim is 14 or 15 years old and the perpetrator is at least 48 months older than the victim." Subanark (talk) 03:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)