Talk:Boeing 737 MAX/Archive 3

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2024 shirt allegation

The article cites passengers claiming a shirt was sucked off a child while a mother held him. The article fails to mention that investigation cannot confirm this (as mentioned in the source article). It is more likely that the child was already shirtless, and a passenger saw loose clothing flying out of the opening and made an assumption. One article source contains this claim along with the fact that cell phones were sucked out; however, these are not comparable. There is a significant difference between cell phones that people laid loosely on their laps while they placed their oxygen masks on, and sucking the shirt off a child while the mother held it. It is perhaps the most sensational and evoking claim of the entire event, and has not been verified, and the supposed mother with child has made no appearance. I propose the sensational claim either be removed until confirmed, or an additional clarification that investigation has not confirmed the claim. 2600:1700:343A:9250:509D:EF72:E32B:4483 (talk) 13:43, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It's all the more surprising as the child was reportedly a teenager (although this also has not been officially confirmed)? I agree that the sucking off of the shirt and the mother holding the child seem, in some ways, slightly contradictory. But the source for the claim is pretty clear. And note: apparently (at some articles at least) we're not allowed to say "sucked off" as "there is no sucking force in physics." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

There is only a large (sorry) sucking force for a very short time, until the pressure equalizes. (Pressure equalization force? Doesn't sound very physicsy, either.) It is hard to imagine any force pulling a shirt off, and leaving the person otherwise unharmed. There should at least be red marks. Imagine instead, pulling a shirt off with ropes attached somewhere. It has to tear in a few places to come off. There are stories of two iPhones found on the ground, one working and one not. People like to have their phone on the tray table, or even the clip to hold one up for viewing. Could easily escape from those. Gah4 (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Martinevans123's comment. Items getting "sucked off" is not a proper term in a scientific or academic context (or really much anywhere supposed to deliver information impartially). If I were sharing a beer with friends though, sure.

I think mentioning that the personal items were ejected from the airplane by the pressure differential could be a more fitting description. 2A01:CB04:4AF:1500:E04E:46F9:138C:AB82 (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Not this again. If you have a problem with the wording used by the sources, bring it up with them. Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs, even if said wrongs are something as insignificant as scientific vs "beer" semantics. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not here for an edit war, but I wanted to add my voice to the conversation because frankly I found it jarring when I was reading the article. Using the same wording as the sources seems hardly mandatory when we are not using direct quotes, especially if, for example, we were using such sources as sensationalist tabloids. I am sure there are other articles who don't use that wording out there.

That said I'll leave it at that, I'm not touching the article and it's frankly not important. Getting sucked off gets the point across either way. 2A01:CB04:4AF:1500:970:510C:1460:5E97 (talk) 08:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I was being ironic. I see nothing wrong with "sucked off" if that's how it was described by witnesses. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:51, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, FWIW, there's this--photo shown in website article and also in embedded video of TV news interview with passenger who reportedly took photo: https://katu.com/news/local/woman-helped-teen-who-was-seated-near-blown-out-door-plug-on-alaska-airlines-flight-1282 DonFB (talk) 22:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hard to know exactly how this happened without knowing what sort of shirt it was and how it was fastened. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox image (again)

About a month ago (not sure how I missed this for that long), DReifGalaxyM31 changed the infobox image from File:Ethiopian Airlines ET-AVJ takeoff.jpg to File:United Airlines Boeing 737-9 MAX AN5165061.jpg without discussion. As far as I am aware, this image was never proposed in any of the previous discussions. I've reverted the change, but it's probably worth discussing.

Here's my opinion. The United 737 is of a lower resolution of only 1,024 × 680 pixels (compared to 3,240 × 2,160 of the Ethiopian aircraft), which isn't necessarily bad as the images are scaled down in the infobox. However, the aircraft in the image has its landing gear down, rather than being in a clean configuration, and is backdropped by a dull, cloudy sky. Both of these were reasons for other images being rejected in favor of the Ethiopian image.

Based on the edit summary, it is clear to me that the main reason for the change was because the Ethiopian aircraft was involved in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. As I have stated in the previous discussions, "it crashed" is not a valid reason to change an infobox image. Any replacement image should be demonstrably better from an encyclopedic point of view. - ZLEA _T\^C 02:47, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Concur, no consensus here for change. BilCat (talk) 03:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I simply suggest File:Boeing 737-8 MAX N8704Q rotated.jpg. It's a perfect picture showing all of the MAX's characteristics (such as the clear view on the winglets and big engines), and since it sports Boeing livery but not any airline's color, it can be considered as a neutral option to represent the 737 MAX. Yes it is a little bit blurred, but it can look fine since it will be scaled down inside the infobox.
And I know...there's no formal regulations or rules preventing us from setting a crashed airframe as the thumbnail, but we should avoid painful memories, aren't we...?  Hwi.padam   23:06, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The Ethiopian image was actually chosen to replace File:Boeing 737-8 MAX N8704Q rotated.jpg in this discussion. "Painful memories" isn't a reason to downgrade the infobox image quality. The aircraft had the same livery as every other Ethiopian Airlines aircraft, so most readers wouldn't even recognize it as an accident aircraft unless they knew to check the registration. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

To be fair, just let someone make a challenge to all aviation photography sites (forums, comments, etc.) to find a worthy hero image or find another ET-AVJ photo to avoid the duplication with the current at infobox. Licensing included, of course. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 00:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

If you feel so strongly about it, by all means go ahead. I cannot guarantee that such an endeavor would be successful, especially if the goal is specifically to change the infobox image. I personally do not think it would be worth the trouble to coordinate such a challenge. Trust me, I once tried to coordinate a competition in Commons and I ended up being one of only three users to participate (my Silver Wiki is little more than a participation trophy and a reminder why I never coordinated another Commons competition since). Most likely, a better image will eventually pop up on Commons, but until then consensus is that the Ethiopian image stays. - ZLEA _T\^C 07:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

For ET-AVJ, JetPhotos has a few good ones: clean configuration, but facing right and taking off(?) from Boeing Field. Planespotters.net and Airliners.net only have the latter photo. Contacting photographers through the form, let's see how it goes... ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 01:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I want to point out that a new infobox image does not have to be of any specific MAX, but it just has to be demonstrably better from an encyclopedic point of view at representing the type. I will also say that duplication of the infobox image with the accident article is not a problem, and if a better image is uploaded of ET-AVJ, it likely would be used in both articles anyway. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Scoured all the MAX 9s in JetPhotos; here are the potential candidates (in chronological order, oldest to latest): United 1, Turkish, flydubai, United 2, AeroMexico 1, Alaska, and AeroMexico 2. I have already received correspondence from the photographer of the Alaska (Kirk) and he is "more than willing"; however, the first United's pose is exactly like the Ethiopian and fits with your "consensus" requirements...

By the way, how about doing the same for the recently-created Airbus A321neo article? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 12:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

If the photographer is indeed willing to release the image under a compatible license, then we should have a discussion about the new image. As for Airbus A321neo, I was under the impression that consensus was leaning toward not splitting the A320 family articles, and even merging the "ceo" variant articles back into Airbus A320 family. I don't expect Airbus A321neo to last very long as a standalone article, but if it does, a similar discussion should probably take place. Also, why did you put "consensus" in quotes when it is clearly defined here? - ZLEA _T\^C 13:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Up to page 27 right now for the MAX 200, here's a partial list (have yet to receive replies from photographers yet as of this typing): RyanAir 1, RyanAir 2 (Malta Air), RyanAir 3 (almost like the Ethiopian's pose), and RyanAir 4

If you want to get in touch with Kirk who took the Alaska 73M9 there's the "Contact" button below the photograph. Also got a reply from the photographer of the United 2 (Kevin Cargo) and he is "[h]appy to provide a higher resolution copy if needed as well". Don't know what to do next, so will leave the rest to you and/or your consensus-mates. It's been more than a year since the consensus of the hero image, just haven't the slightest clue; that explains the quotation marks. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 13:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I have already contacted the Alaska MAX photographer, and he is indeed willing to allow us to upload the image to Commons regardless of the ultimate consensus of its use here. Be sure to direct any willing copyright holders to WP:PERMISSION, and be sure to clarify that they would have to release the image under a compatable license. I would also ensure that they know that there is no guarentee that their image will be used on this article, as that would be up to the community to decide.

I'm a little worried that you may be going a bit far with your effort to get the image changed. You're not doing anything wrong, but it is unusual to go to such great lengths to get a consensus changed. The fact that the consensus is a year old does not make it any less valid, and it will remain valid until the community decides to change it. Again, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing now, but be careful that this doesn't become disruptive. - ZLEA _T\^C 14:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Alaska Airlines 737 MAX 9

Proposed infobox image replacement

Before I forget again, I will formally propose the replacement of the infobox image with the Alaska Airlines MAX 9 image discussed above. I have uploaded the photo to Commons and the permission has been confirmed by the VRT. I will say that I am slightly in favor of replacing the image, as the Alaska photo is better contrasted with the brighter blue sky and white fuselage, compared to the Ethiopian image's dull blue shy and slightly overexposed fuselage. The aircraft is in a mostly clean configuration, with the flaps being slightly lowered (though the Ethiopian image displays the flaps at around the same angle). I don't think the blue tail against the sky will cause issues with colorblind readers as they are two vastly different shades (though again, I have never experienced colorblindness so I'm not 100% sure about this). The left profile view of the aircraft is not unusual, and is similar to that of the Boeing 737 Next Generation infobox image. My only real complaint about this photo is that the glare on the left nacelle causes it to blend into the fuselage slightly, but the nacelle chevrons and new winglets are still clearly visible so I don't think that's a big issue. Overall, it's slightly better than the Ethiopian image in my opinion, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks. - ZLEA _T\^C 05:47, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll vote for the Alaska Airlines pic. Very frankly, I think the Ethiopian picture is better, but the ghoulishness of prominently displaying it is just...creepy. I realize most people probably won't know what they're seeing, but those who do may well wonder what kind of people would show that picture in a kind of congratulatory context, or wonder if Wikipedia even knows what it's showing. DonFB (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

As it's been explained before, "it crashed" is not a valid reason to downgrade the infobox image. The Ethiopian image has been consistently shown to be of greater encyclopedic value than all the other proposed changes, and the purpose of this discussion is to determine whether this new image is better from an encyclopedic point of view. Wikipedia is not censored, not that the image would otherwise be censored in the first place. There were over a hundred aircraft in the Ethiopian fleet at the time, including dozens of 737s, so the chances of any of the crew or passengers who died in the accident being inside the aircraft when the photo was taken is slim. With that said, are there any other reasons that you prefer the new image over the Ethiopian image? - ZLEA _T\^C 15:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

No, I don't imagine any victims were on the flight pictured. I didn't take part in the previous debate, but I'll stand by my vote for the reason given. DonFB (talk) 20:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

On the issue of censorship, the photo is shown at the top of the crash article, which is entirely appropriate. But here, it's another matter. DonFB (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The reason for me scouring JetPhotos is that the current Ethiopian MAX 8 is used twice in this article: first as the hero (infobox) image, the other under the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 header. As the initiator, naturally accept such a replacement.

By the way, both of you might have overlooked considering Kevin Cargo's United MAX 9 above; if you had contacted him he would also be happy to send you a larger/higher quality photograph. Though this one is dark-blue on blue (latest livery), and the colorblind issue would be taken into account. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 04:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I still prefer the Alaska aircraft, the United livery blends with the sky a bit too much, even for me. - ZLEA _T\^C 04:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I prefer the image of the Alaska plane. On its technical merits, IMHO, it's just as good as the Ethiopian image. But I think there are three reasons to swap it out that really push this over the edge for me: 1) It avoids using the same image in the infobox for this page and the infobox for the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 page. 2) It avoids using the same image twice on the same page (in the infobox and the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 section). 3) This issue of "but it's the crash plane" is going to keep coming up. Yes, Wikipedia is not censored, but is it really worth continuing to rehash this discussion every few weeks/months? Let's just change it and be done with it. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 00:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Voting for Alaska Last time I engaged in this discussion I was told it's an editorial decision. I much prefer Alaska for its exposure and framing. The Ethiopian was underexposed, as I commented, "a bit overexposed and washed out due to haze maybe", and the supposed fix overexposed it, but I didn't say anything because the discussion was all over the place and going nowhere. PS Thanks for finding a good photo and getting the permission, etc. — zmm ~talk~ 15:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome, zmm; that was initially my motivation. Now to find a suitable Airbus A321neo replacement image... ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 05:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Revision to lede

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Taking the above into account, I'd like to take a stab at revising the lede. This seems to be the section that most people are taking issue with:

The 737 MAX suffered recurring problems with its Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), causing two fatal crashes, Lion Air Flight 610 in late 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 in early 2019, in which a total of 346 people died. The aircraft was subsequently grounded worldwide from March 2019 to November 2020, with the FAA garnering criticism for being the last major authority to ground it. Investigations found Boeing covered-up known issues with the aircraft and lapses in the FAA's certification of the aircraft for flight.

Here is my proposed revision:

The 737 MAX suffered two fatal crashes, Lion Air Flight 610 in late 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 in early 2019, in which a total of 346 people died. Contributing to the accidents was the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), which activated unexpectedly due to a faulty angle of attack sensor, and inadequate pilot training. The aircraft was subsequently grounded worldwide from March 2019 to November 2020, with the FAA garnering criticism for being the last major authority to ground it. Investigations found Boeing did not fully inform operators about MCAS and found shortcomings in the FAA's certification process for the aircraft.

Here are my thoughts:

1. MCAS was not alone in causing the crashes. We do need to acknowledge that.
2. Instead of blaming the dead pilots for their reactions in the heat of battle, I think we can all agree that training was lacking.
3. The FAA did receive criticism for not grounding the aircraft sooner. That criticism came from domestic officials, international governments, and the media. Saying that Boeing was criticized is a statement of fact.
4. We need to mention that Boeing was not entirely forthcoming about MCAS. Calling it a cover-up is too strong, but not saying anything is also not an option.
5. The FAA has been criticized for its certification process, mainly how it interacted with Boeing. Again, it's not a judgment by us as Wikipedia editors; it's simply another statement of fact.

Open to any suggested revisions on my revision before I publish the changes. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 19:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

No objections (although "a faulty angle of attack sensor" might suggest a single aircraft, which it obviously wasn't). Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I also think this is an improvement and agree with your thoughts. I would suggest maybe changing "which activated unexpectedly due to a faulty angle of attack sensor" to something like "which activated unexpectedly due to erroneous angle of attack data", so the implication is not that the sensor was faulty by design or that it was delivered as faulty. 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:9D42:2980:6C55:A834 (talk) 19:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that suggestion. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Uncommanded MCAS activation

Would any of the information about recovery from uncommanded MCAS activation in these sources be useful?

[1]https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=11369094&FileExtension=pdf&FileName=CERTIFICATION%20SPECIALIST%E2%80%99S%20REPORT-Rel.pdf

[2]https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/Response%20to%20EAIB%20final%20report.pdf

The first mentions (on Page 8) "Failures were able to be countered by using elevator alone. Stabilizer trim was available to offload column forces, and stabilizer cutouts were available but not required to counter failures."

And from the second (on Page 2) "appropriate crew management of the event, per the procedures that existed at the time, would have allowed the crew to recover the airplane" 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:9D42:2980:6C55:A834 (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

[Response to EAIB] I don't see that quote in this document.

[NTSB Report] These are all the lines that are most applicable from my quick read. Each one is an assumption made by Boeing, but it does abide by the FAA circular.

• "Uncommanded system inputs are readily recognizable and can be counteracted by overriding the failure by movement of the flight controls in the normal sense by the flight crew and do not require specific procedures." (page 7)

• "The pilot will take immediate action to reduce or eliminate increased control forces by re-trimming or changing configuration or flight conditions." (page 8)

• "Trained flight crew memory procedures shall be followed to address and eliminate or mitigate the failure." (page 8)

• "This conclusion was based in part on the assumption that each activation would be recognized and immediately trimmed out, which is consistent with the regulatory guidance in AC 25-7C that a pilot will take immediate action to trim out reduce or eliminate high control forces by re-trimming or changing configuration or flight conditions" (page 9)

StalkerFishy (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I see this on Page 8, second paragraph from the bottom -

"When assessing unintended MCAS activation in the simulator for the FHAs, the function was allowed to perform to its authority and beyond before pilot action was taken to recover. Failures were able to be countered by using elevator alone. Stabilizer trim was available to offload column forces, and stabilizer cutouts were available but not required to counter failures. This was true both for the preliminary FHAs performed in 2012 and for the reassessment of the FHAs in 2016."

[3]https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=11369094&FileExtension=pdf&FileName=CERTIFICATION%20SPECIALIST%E2%80%99S%20REPORT-Rel.pdf 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:9D42:2980:6C55:A834 (talk) 02:18, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

That's the first source, though. I'm talking about your quote from the second source (the Response to EAIB) that's on page 2. I don't see that anywhere.

I've also edited my previous comment to help clarify which source I was talking about. Didn't realize PDFs were numbered like that!

StalkerFishy (talk) 03:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah apologies - the quote is actually from the NTSB's response to one of the previous EAIB draft final reports:

[4]https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/US%20comments%20ET302%20Report%20March%202022.pdf 2603:6080:5A07:C24C:9D42:2980:6C55:A834 (talk) 03:31, 21 February 2024 (UTC)