Talk:Jude Bellingham

Considered one of the best...

Moved current version of recent addition with its sources from the article, where it doesn't belong, particularly in the lead section, to here.

Considered one of the best midfielders in the world, he is renowned for his technicality, playmaking and exceptional vision.

References

The lead section style guideline is pretty specific on this: "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Such an exceptional claim in the opening sentence encourages the reader to read the rest of the article to find out more, only there is no more.

Please see also MOS:WTW, which lists words and phrases to avoid, especially the sections MOS:PEACOCK ("best" and "renowned") and tells us "Instead of making subjective proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate it", and MOS:WEASEL ("considered", "regarded"), "views that are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if those expressions accurately represent the opinions of the source. Reliable sources may analyze and interpret, but for editors to do so would violate the Wikipedia:No original research or Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policies."

Some of these links are to guidelines, which we're recommended but not obliged to follow. But we are obliged to follow policies. The content has to be verifiable with reference to reliable published sources, and we need to avoid drawing unwarranted conclusions from multiple sources (see WP:SYNTH, a section of the no original research policy).

What it comes down to, is (a) despite the current epidemic of footballer pages with "one of the best" sentences in their leads, they're very rarely appropriate; (b) what we should be doing, even if it is rather more difficult, is to use reliable sources to create content in the body of the article that describes the player's career to date, mentions their achievements at relevant points, and illustrates their strengths and weaknesses with proper attribution (which means the reader can see who said what); and only then (c) sum it up in the lead without needing to make apparently subjective proclamations. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:51, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. The info can be added back at a later date, but only after his attributes and the reception of him is documented in a Style of Play section. Scientelensia (talk) 14:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

PLEASE READ!

Do not edit Jude Bellingham’s page until June 4 2023. On that day, the La Liga ends. After the La Liga ends, someone has to update Jude Bellingham’s date in Dortmund as he is leaving that club after Real Madrid’s season is over. He hasn’t left yet. 2A02:C7C:AD6A:4400:F5C4:7C0:870B:2C10 (talk) 17:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Bio will be updated on 1 July 2023, when the summer transfer window commences. He is a Borussia Dortmund player prior to his departure until 30 June 2023 as per contract. Sartaj267 14:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Ref 57, i.e. this announcement, revealed from 12:00, that he was unveiled as a Real Madrid player. Obviously, the ref was not even created when this section started. But looking at this information and this transfer involved two teams from different countries, I'm inclined to agree with the version of the lead part of the article at the start of the day. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 15:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Please Read 2 – Notice for editors

It is likely that with Bellingham’s transfer to Madrid (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65836734) this page is going to become very popular in coming days. Thus, I want to make some suggestions of what we, as Wikipedia editors, need to do to improve this page.

1. The Birmingham City section needs to be based more on facts. It is generally good however.

2. The Borussia Dortmund section needs lots of improvement:

• This section (“It had long become obvious that Bellingham would leave Birmingham, and it was reported that he and his father had visited several major clubs, of which Manchester United and Bundesliga club Borussia Dortmund were the favourites. Impressed by Dortmund's record of including young players as regulars in the first team, as evidenced by the likes of Jadon Sancho, that became his destination of choice. He flew to Germany for a medical, and the transfer was confirmed on 20 July 2020: he would join after Birmingham's last match of the season. The undisclosed fee was understood by Sky Sports to be an initial £25 million – making him the most expensive 17-year-old in history – plus "several million more" dependent on performance-related criteria.”) is not well sourced and the language used should be more encyclopaedic.

• Many paragraphs have little reference to dates (specifically months and days) and so this needs to be added.

• There is a long gap in time at the time of me writing this (https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jude_Bellingham&oldid=1158989997) between the last two paragraphs, and more needs to be added to detail Bellingham’s near miss on the league title. Detail about the run-in and the awards Bellingham received after the end of the season should also be recorded. Preferably we could split up each of Bellingham’s three seasons at the club using sub-headings.

3. If a phrase such as this (see below, copied from talk message above) is to be used in the lede (and I believe it should be), then a ‘Style of play’ section detailing Bellingham’s technical game and attributes, as well as the reception towards him, should be created. If there is enough content for this next action to be justified, this section could be renamed ‘Player profile’ and could be split using the subheadings ‘Style of play’ and ‘Reception’.

Considered one of the best midfielders in the world, he is renowned for his technicality, playmaking and exceptional vision.

References

These changes can be made quickly, if we all try. Thank you. Scientelensia (talk) 15:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2023

End carrer in Borrusia now he a real madrid player

 Add a real meadrid Oskarynalev2 (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

The transfer is not yet official. Kante4 (talk) 20:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I think we’l have to wait for a bit longer until a contract is signed. Scientelensia (talk) 14:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2023

I want to edit this page to change some of the information. Mo ahmed1285239882 (talk) 11:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

What changers do you want to make? Scientelensia (talk) 14:39, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2023

Real Madrid have signed Jude Bellingham 2A02:C7E:4E08:A500:E8B6:BFD0:EA3A:72F0 (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks like that has been added already. RudolfRed (talk) 05:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2023 (2)

{{subst:trim|1=

Jude moved to Real Madrid , and he’s not in Borussia Dortmund anymore

}

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 14:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Next time, please make sure that this has not already been answered to, because it looks like it is  already done. Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 14:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Lede

Should include him being one of the best youngsters in the world, a title that many credit him with especially at 19 years of age. Same source used for Phil Foden. 82.35.88.151 (talk) 22:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Lead changes

What's all this about repetitive changes about changing from *Borussia Dortmund and club number 22 to Real Madrid and club number 5* and vice versa. It seems like everyone who has edited the article since the Real Madrid announcement has their own way of thinking which version is correct. Obviously, after 1 July, which has reappeared in the lead and stays that way as of this timestamp, everyone will recognise he is definitely playing for Real Madrid. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 19:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

He's already signed for Real Madrid. What has the date of 1 July got to do with anything? Mattythewhite (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

We don't have any sources stating "1 July" except this one about the text this transfer deal will not fall in the current 2022/2023 financial year, but in the 2023/2024 financial year.. The PLEASE READ! section may also be worth reading, with Sartaj267 explaining the mention of 1 July which might just be that user's own knowledge when giving that out 3 weeks ago.

I'm inclined to stick with the restore of Mattythewhite's latest version based on the unveiling earlier this month and the observation my recent edit was reverted two days ago. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 19:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

This page is causing immense confusion, because people keeping changing parts of it, which then makes it incorrect. He doesn't wear the number 22 shirt if he's at Real Madrid. If he's joining Real on July 1, that means he isn't there now. The Benzema page is my preference for what should have been done, nobody can change any of that. PeachyBum07 (talk) 09:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Picture

Can someone change the main picture for Jude? Like this is such a bad angle and it’s old. Change it to one with him at Madrid 2600:8801:8D15:1700:2479:F03E:D414:9E77 (talk) 22:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Only if that image is free to use, i.e. not taken from any professional website. Someone did change the image but that is an obvious copyvio. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 08:08, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

The header image should be changed EndzoneEnthusiast 06:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2023

Regarded as one of the greatest midfielders in the world Detroit is back (talk) 07:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done per WP:NPOV/WP:OR WaggersTALK 08:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I can't understand why

Bro, why only LaLiga matches? Champions League should count too. This is theft Themadridista14 (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

It says below the box "*Club domestic league appearances and goals, correct as of". There were discussions and it's easier to just track domestic league apps/goals, especially for former players. Kante4 (talk) 05:07, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

If you include Champions League, where does it stop? You'd have to include pre-season friendlies, cup games etc as well if you're counting goals in all competitions, the potential for error is huge. PeachyBum07 (talk) 05:19, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

All official goals should be recorded; league, domestic cups and continental cups. Every goal exept friendly matches. The official records of UEFA, the spanish league federation etc. is doing it; so should Wikipedia. Because it's official.149.7.163.75 (talk) 17:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@149.7.163.75: Feel free to start a discussion at WT:FOOTY regarding this. Project-wide consensus would be needed to enact such a change. Mattythewhite (talk) 17:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Jude Bellingham

where he is from 41.114.178.245 (talk) 12:34, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Stourbridge, it is in the info box. Knitsey (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Real Madrid infobox photos

We've seem to be having a lot of occurrences that photos in the infobox of Bellingham of Real Madrid are judged to be copyvios, as I've noticed just now. Please stop uploading photos from websites, or ones which appears to be cropped, unless permission is granted. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 16:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Was this edit justified?

https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jude_Bellingham&diff=prev&oldid=1185289996 The user tried to delete this text earlier and I reverted them, saying “Partial rv – whoever has deleted so much content has deleted many relevant records broken and equaled by Bellingham and many stats people may find interesting. The content is not hard to read and football fans may wish to read this: there is often no need to remove detail when this is what makes an encyclopedia, and especially when there is no where to move the content. I agree however that less notable goals should not be written about, so thank you whoever deleted the some.” Scientelensia (talk) 19:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

For me, yes. Most of it is trivia info and the pre-saeson is not important. Kante4 (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Not even worthy of notes? Are the stats irrelevant? Scientelensia (talk) 21:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah 100% justified. Also it looks like you’ve now began an edit war on another page with Mattythewhite. RossButsy (talk) 20:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Not an edit war. I made one continuous revert. That’s it. No repetition. I am wary of the rules. I made three separate edits, and in total one continuous revert. Read WP:WAR Scientelensia (talk) 21:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd say yes - this was far too detailed. I'd say the section should be condensed further if anything Michaeldble (talk) 20:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

And again, a lot of details added. Why does it have to be here that "analysts also praised the signing" or "Bellingham experienced a prolific preseason in which he found favour with Real Madrid’s fans". Kante4 (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh, i just saw the "Notes" section. What is that? Pinging former editors of that discussion and article to get more opinions. @RossButsy, Michaeldble, and Mattythewhite: Kante4 (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The information (e.g. records equalled) is relevant and does belong on a Wikipedia page. As Bellingham is an important player, much information should be available on him. However, I take the point that and it is true that it is too lengthy to be all put on the page: therefore, I have created a notes section so that only supremely interested readers who want more info read them (having clicked on them). I believe it is a useful was of conserving relevant info without over-complicating the page. Notes are used in some format on these pages (albeit to a lesser extent): Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo. Notes should be pioneered as a way to include fascinating information without cluttering a page for those who are less interested in the topic. Scientelensia (talk) 15:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Are those not all people who agree with your stance, as seen above? If you must bother people by pinging them, ping some others also who have been in favour of not deleting relevant info. Scientelensia (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I pinged those from above, but you are the one who added the most who added at the specific section, but i digged deeper now and will ping @EndzoneEnthusiast, Xxx2023, and FarisEid:. Sorry if it came across like i would not pinged anyone who agreed with you, not my intention. Should have done better and looked more in the history, again my bad as it was rushed. Kante4 (talk) 15:25, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Not a problem, I understand :) Scientelensia (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Your first concern: I appreciate that this information might not be needed, but with Bellingham’s 100 million fee it would be plausible for a reader to think – unless otherwise told – that the transfer was looked upon badly by analysts and critics, when in fact it was praised by them. So this info is utile (in my opinion).

As to your second concern: when such a monumental transfer occurs, a preseason can be useful for readers to gage how he adapted to the club at first – not vital but useful and interesting info. This is also done in the Steve McManaman article. I also wanted to record Bellingham’s first goal for Madrid, though it wasn’t competitive: in future years this moment might be regarded as symbolic and highly significant by some. Scientelensia (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

It's just too much. :D Some things are trivial info and more suited for his own site/blog. The analysts and experts saying he fits or whatever is not needed as there are so many "experts" in the world of football and we don't include them all. We need to find a good compromise. Same for the pre-season, not important to be added (for me). Kante4 (talk) 15:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

That’s true, I take this point. Could we make an even more general statement or relegate the introductory sentence of that to the notes also? Scientelensia (talk) 15:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate that we shouldn’t add lots of experts’ opinions, but Zidane and McManaman as are stated in the article very relevant in the case of a Number 5 English player moving to Real Madrid Scientelensia (talk) 15:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with @Kante4. There's far too much trivial/non notable information added here again for me sorry. Michaeldble (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Also agree with @Kante4 Far too much trivial nonsense in the article not every single thing needs to be included. RossButsy (talk) 23:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Yep, fair enough. I’ve kept the records in the form of notes but the interviews and opinions (etc.) have been removed. I hope this is fair. Scientelensia (talk) 09:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Scientelensia Thank you for that! I hadn't seen that done before regarding the notes but I'd say it's a good compromise to include the less significant records in that section. Also, regarding the inclusion of pre-season friendlies, I believe you've added those four times now, please don't do this in future - discuss it here first please. All the best Michaeldble (talk) 12:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2023

In career statistics, the total goals before he joined Real Madrid is stated as 24 but the totals add to 28. Change 24 to 28. 2.29.58.113 (talk) 12:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The first row is not included in the total as he was in Birmingham. The total row is for his time at Dortmund. Kante4 (talk) 13:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Jude Bellingham header image

@Kante4 @Mattythewhite: Sorry to mention you here, I was wondering since the current header is from a bad angle and outdated, can this image from Flickr be used as the new header image? If it is possible, I would upload it on Commons.

Link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/footpicshd/52543011552/in/photolist-2oSoS8D-2o43ELh-2poYRc2 EndzoneEnthusiast 08:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@EndzoneEnthusiast: I have no idea about images and which are free and can be used, hopefully Matty or others can help. Kante4 (talk) 15:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we can use it. The Flickr user's about page says they don't claim ownership to the images on their account except where specified, and they credit this one to a named photographer and GES Sportfoto/Getty Images. If you visit the Getty page for this image, you'll see it hasn't been released for free use. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:09, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Nacionality

I‘m not sure but apparently he got recently the Irish nationality SamarkandHFK (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)