Talk:Melungeon

WP:REDFLAG

The first paragraph is linked in error to a third party opinion on a controversial study; the primary source used for the word Melungeon is arbitrarily placed in the middle of the sentence and connected to an additional source that does not agree with the primary source and definition of Melungeon people and where they are from.

Melungeons (/məˈlʌndʒənz/ mə-LUN-jənz) (sometimes also spelled Malungeans, Melangeans, Melungeans, Melungins) are a group of people from Appalachia who predominantly descend from Northern or Central European women and sub-Saharan African men. Their ancestors were likely brought to Virginia as indentured servants in the mid-17th century.

This citation could be cleaned up and the citation mentioned twice should be collapsed in one sentence and the full citation and resource should be in sentence 1 found here on the definition of Melungeon: https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/1890/volume-10/1890a_v10-2

Source in dispute: https://www.tampabay.com/incoming/dna-study-seeks-origin-of-melungeons/1231925/ StephanieTree (talk) 02:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I believe this falls under WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If there are published, secondary sources discussing this or other genetic studies of this group, you can add them, but trying to suppress published material that you don't agree with is censorship. Wikipedia is not censored. Yuchitown (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I believe an article that talks about living people who were a part of a genetic study is an inappropriate source to use for the definition of this word, which is in violation of WP:HARM StephanieTree (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Avoiding harm that is. StephanieTree (talk) 16:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

It's also a citation for a collection of essays in which the editor is credited for the source found on page 201- which is really an essay by Smith, J. Douglas. “The Campaign for Racial Purity and the Erosion of Paternalism in Virginia, 1922-1930: ‘Nominally White, Biologically Mixed, and Legally Negro.’” The Journal of Southern History, vol. 68, no. 1, 2002, pp. 65–106. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/3069691. Accessed 3 Sept. 2023.

This collection of 15 essays is a self published book and not an acceptable citation on wikipedia as it is. I should also note that the reference cited discusses Walter Plecker, not Melungeons nor defines them one time. StephanieTree (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

References

proposal to delete "A Typical Malungeon" sketch

The "A Typical Malungeon" (Calloway Collins) illustration is more of a caricature than a realistic depiction of a Melungeon. IIRC, this was commissioned by Dromgoole and her perspective on the Melungeons is evidently not unbiased. Additionally, the article doesn't alert the reader to this fact.

I suggest that the illlustration be removed from the article. In the alternative, there could be additional content added elaborating on societal or systemic bias against Melungeons (e.g. in the media, as exemplified by Dromgoole's "contributions"). I'm not volunteering to do this, just saying that this would provide the needed context for this illustration. Fabrickator (talk) 05:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you; the illustration of Calloway Collins is a caricature and part of the Yellow Journalism of Dromgoole; the other issue with this picture with the Goins family picture is that this words is steeped in racism- the word itself is a caricature of a group of people. To include a picture of a family and not even know who they are or give credit to them or the source of the photo other then looking like a realistic depiction of a Melungeon is also not unbiased. The two pictures provided in this article together are definitely inappropriate; however the Calloway Collins depiction was titled "A Typical Melungeon" and was infamously circulated along with the descriptions of these families by Dromgoole. It makes it not wikipedia appropriate when someone has decided that Arch Goins' brother's family provides a "realistic depiction of a Melungeon" since this word is a racial slur at the end of the day. I propose the Goins family picture is deleted in favor of sticking to documented evidence of where "Melungeons" were written about in history with that descriptor- not based on someone's private family photos on wikipedia that were uploaded from the Melungeon Heritage Association but the original source is no where to be found since this is a private collection photo. I agree with the alternative- to provide education with an appropriate context of this illustration; and then I also propose to delete the Goins family photo- unless someone can provide a source for this photo. StephanieTree (talk) 14:53, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support deletion of "A Typical Melungeon" illustration as per nom. Yuchitown (talk) 16:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
• Extricate Between the complexities of this specific issue and at least one other issue I previously raised regarding this article, I cannot continue to participate, e.g. the proposal here has become too confused, and in the other case, I have repeated my position but it has not been acknowledged (i.e. I'm saying something but the party it's directed at isn't hearing me), and my continued efforts would be found tiring to the other parties, and possibly lead to sanctions. To put it in other words, I feel that other participants have either stuck their fingers in their ears or just chosen to remain silent, so my best solution is just to extricate myself insofar as this article is concerned. Fabrickator (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

  The illustration is not a caricature.

  THE MORRISTOWN GAZETTE

  I quote;

  I send with this a picture of one of them, Calloway Collins, who declared is father was a full-blooded Cherokee. CALLOWAY IS AN INDIAN IF EVER ONE LIVED ON TENNESSEE SOIL. The picture was drawn by Mr. Thomas M. Sharpe, of Nashville, and is exceedingly well done. Calloway was a soldier belonging to the First Tennessee, under Brownlow and to-day draws a pension for three bullet wounds. His daughter Dorcas (one of Mr. Sharpe's drawings) speaks for herself. The family group is from life. We visited this family with Mr. John Tyler, the brother of Hon. A. J. Tylre of Sneedville. I send the pictures alons with this, and my anonymous critic can see them by calling at the American office.

  The rest of Thomas M. Sharpe's Sketches

  https://the-melungeons.blogspot.com/2023/02/hancocks-malungeons-will-allen.html JoannePezzu (talk) 13:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Grammar ambiguity and "reliable sources"

The article in its current form says "Their ancestors were likely brought to Virginia as indentured servants in the mid-17th century." This is quoted from a newspaper article in the Tampa Bay Times about a DNA study of Melungeon ancestry. An editor has rejected an effort to insert the word "White" before "ancestors", holding to exact quotation. I believe that the word "White" should be inserted, for two reasons. The source that is quoted is not a reliable source for details of American history, it is much more reliable about events in Tampa Bay. Secondly, I have found zero mentions of indentured servants from Africa (aside from some speculation regarding 20 Africans in 1619). Do other editors agree with my position that the cited source is not adequately reliable to claim that people from Africa were indentured servants in the era leading to the Melungeons? 00:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Pete unseth (talk) 00:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello! I should mention that the article you mention was not originally published in the Tampa Bay Times, rather, it was written by the Associated Press (an esteemed national news organization) and reprinted in the Tampa Bay Times. You can find the article republished elsewhere besides the Tampa Bay Times. Therefore, your point about the article's authority suffering because it was published in the Florida paper is entirely moot. That's really all I feel I can add to this conversation at this time, standing by my earlier edits. I will yield to whatever consensus is reached in the talk page by Mr. Unseth and other editors. 128.197.29.246 (talk) 17:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Melungeons

Melungeons are only a tiny part of the peoples of Appalachia. I have never seen or spoken to anyone who described themselves as Melungeon and I have lived my 74 years entirely in Appalachia. I was a grown man before I had even read about the Melungeons.

This article, as I read it, would lead a novice to believe that they are a majority instead of the tiny minority they are. When asked "what is your ethnicity?" my answer is I am Appalachian, just like the Mountains and so would they, I suspect. Its not where we came from, its who we are. Eaammons (talk) 19:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Most people would not have described themselves as Melungeon after so many years of keeping such things under wraps. My family were tri-racial Melungeon in Appalachia and simply didn’t talk about it. “One drop” laws as recent as the mid-20th century when our parents and grandparents were around made such conversations taboo. No idea where you’re getting the sense that this article presents Melungeons as a “majority.” 2600:1700:290:91B0:DFD:914:C89C:B5DA (talk) 15:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)