Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please try to post within news, policy, technical, proposals or assistance rather than here.

Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar).

Start a new discussion in the miscellaneous section

 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 

• Table of contents
• First discussion
• End of page
• New post

« Archives, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80

Miscellaneous archive

Discussions older than 7 days (date of last made comment) are moved here. These discussions will be kept archived for 7 more days. During this period the discussion can be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate. After 7 days the discussion will be permanently removed.

Artificial intelligence and Wikipedia

I think Wikipedia should make better use of artificial intelligence, in order to automate more simple tasks. An example is redirects. Someone had to manually redirect Condoleeza Rice to Condoleezza Rice. We could have a feature similar to what Google has, where if you make a typo, it will suggest "Did you mean Condoleezza Rice?"

Copyvio detection software also wouldn't be too hard to implement.. I think we should make greater use of bots too; a sophisticated algorithm could find overlapping articles (e.g. United Nations Security Council and Reform of the United Nations) and flag those for linking, so that contributors would be less likely to duplicate each others' work.

Spell-check is another obvious possibility, as are bots to perform more complex tasks such as conforming references to the style manual. A number of methods could be implemented for vandal detection. Page move rollback and other repetitive admin tasks could be automated.

As it is now, Wikipedia article creation tends to be very labor-intensive, sometimes unnecessarily. Rad Racer 17:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think you are giving too much credit to Google's apparant ease in this task. 'AI' in general is CPU expensive and G has every conceivable mispelling of Britney Spears or whatever name you're interested in on the books to help them along with this task. --Alterego 18:43, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree some uses of AI are a waste of CPU resources. I was definitely opposed to the proposal to negotiate a deal with Microsoft to license Clippy as part of the Wikipedia user interface("It looks like you're writing an article.") Rad Racer 19:03, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A phonetic algorithm index hooked into the Go button would get us a large part of the way to this. -- Cyrius|✎ 21:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You know the size of the server farm Google has? It's BIG. User:Alphax/sig 09:21, 28 Mar2005 (UTC)

It wouldn't take a huge server farm to do what Cyrius mentioned. This would take a few bytes per entry to store a soundex or similar value. Then a lookup for matching soundex values on the new article page. Kenj0418 04:22, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Somewhat related to this- does anyone know if Wikipeida logs failed lookups, so a person could query to see if there was Condoleezza/Condoleezza issue occuring with many requests? Kenj0418 04:22, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if that's a good idea---Wikipedia already keeps turning off the existing search feature every time the servers get overloaded and slow down. Maybe if Bill Gates or some other rich guy donates some hardware to Wikimedia then it might work. --Coolcaesar 08:28, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A Hypothetical Question

Hi. I'd like to pose a hypothetical question here: suppose a group of users wanted to change a key policy of the website, especifically, say they wanted to "outlaw" fair use as a valid license for an image to be used in Wikipedia. Could this be done by a consensus achieved in a vote in which only 25 users participated? Even if those 25 users happen to be the top 25 contributors to the website? I'm asking it because that's been done in the Portuguese language Wikipedia. A vote was carried by a group of users (mostly Admins of that project, which enables them to enforce their decision) to rule out fair use under the general argument that they wanted the website to be 100% free, and images published under the U.S. fair use are not so, especially if the website is viewed in other countries. I had been absent from that project for a while and had not taken part in that decision. Upon returning, I noticed that the people who did participate had a very slim understanding of international law (especially concerning the internet) and had reasoned only with personal opinions about the fair use. So I tried to explain the legal reasons why fair use is valid, even if it's a US legal institution. I also thought that such a change in the essence of the project could not be carried out by such a limited number of users, since it is not the same as reaching a consensus about an article. The general reply to my (rather long) posts explaining international law was that "it was voted and decided, and [as part of the decision] this can only be revisited in a year". In protest, I've withdrawn from that project for the time being (not for good), but still thought I had a point, so I thought I'd ask for some advice on this, the largest of all the WPs. Was I right about the issues with the procedure? Or, regardless of whether I could be right technically, a consensus of 25 (of over 5 thousand) should prevail to change part of the essence of the project? What would happen if something similar was attempted here (going back to my original question)? Regards, Redux 17:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what procedure there is to stop that policy from being enforced, other than getting Jimbo to overrule it. I would do that right away, before any images get deleted. Rad Racer 18:32, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not all that hypothetical, apparently, but still:

• Each W has its own approximation of democracy. If the rules on pt: allow this, then it has been decided correctly.
• The fact that something has been decided correctly doesn't mean that it's right. You will however need to make your point to enough people , and hence clear enough, to get something done about it.
• Since most Wikipedians in Europe did not have a say in allowing Fair Use, they tend to have little respect for that possibility.
• Ignoring the fact that several Wikipedians misuse the concept, the very fact that not all of our servers are actually located in the USA makes its application a tricky affair.
• In all I would suggest creating a platform somewhere central to get all Fair Use issues clear before trying to convince people that it's worth overturning a democratic decision. Aliter 23:37, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, I guess it would depend on whether they are talking about banning use of images, or deleting them altogether. The latter, being irrevocable, would justify immediate intervention, in my opinion. The former is not such a big deal. Don't they have RfC and arbitration over there, by the way? Those are quasi-democratic and -republican processes, respectively. Rad Racer 23:50, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

About what Aliter said: I've already brought up a great deal of it during my aforementioned "long posts" explaining why fair use was a valid licence. As I mentioned, the general reply (of those who were able to get their way, of course) was that it was decided in a vote (democratly), to which I replied that the mere fact that it was a democratic (although there was no minimum quorum respected, which I had thought would be advisable to make such a profound change) decision does not ensure the quality of that decision. But the situation is more complicated. The people over there appear to have, as far as this issue is concerned, a very limited understanding of the mechanisms that make Wikipedia possible. Here's one example: one of the Admins over there was advocating, during the discussion, that fair use violates the GFDL. Isn't that one of those issues that have already been put to rest here? How can an Admin be so on the wrong track? In the case of the Portuguese WP, there are no servers in the countries were its readers are located (although there are plans – meaning, sometime in the future, not now – to install servers in Portugal). And finally, yes they are deleting images on account that fair use has been outlawed. Regards, Redux 17:33, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

About the violation of the GFDL: that issue has been put to rest here, but apparently not on the Portuguese wikipedia. The aim of using the GFDL is to make a encyclopedia that can be freely copied and modified; but when an article includes portions that are used under fair-use, these articles can not be copied in their entirity by people outside of the US (or countries with an equivalent fair-use system). Apparently, the contributors to the Portuguese wikipedia have decided that their main audience is located outside of the US, i.e. in Portugal and Brazil, and it's more important to keep their freedom for to copy their entire wikipedia (including all of the images) than to keep those fair-use images. A very understandable point of view, and one they should be allowed to take, imho. The same rule is also followed on at least three other wikipedias: the German, Dutch and Norse wikipedias only accept images that are allowed under German/Dutch/Norwegian/EU copyright law (which is stricter than U.S. law). Eugene van der Pijll 01:17, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Addition: this is also the reason that the Wikipedia Commons does not accept fair use images: see commons:Copyright_tags#Unfree_copyrights Eugene van der Pijll 01:36, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the point of view is flawed, not to mention inconsistent. As I have mentioned over there (although I don't think anyone cared), if the concern was only creating a "100% free" encyclopedia concerning the images as well [as the text], changes could not have been restricted to the fair use policy. The Admin I mentioned before gave this example about a hypothetical someone "wanting to copy an image from the pt wp onto a t-shirt as selling it in the streets and that this someone should be able to do this without concerns for copyright restrictions". He gave this example as a paradigm of what he meant. Then I asked, with no reply until now: what about the permission for use? If we ask a copyright holder for permission to use his material on WP and get it, that doesn’t mean that people can "copy it onto t-shirts and sell it down the street", even though the image will be useable on Wikipedia. That policy remains intact in the pt wp, even though it's a classic example of an image being used that is not 100% free. So, if you ban fair use because you wish the encyclopedia to be 100% free, you have to ban the use of copyrighted images with express permission for use – or, as I also asked there, does anyone believe that when a copyright holder allows us to use his material he is revoking his rights entirely and releasing the material in the public domain? Not at all, permission for use is special for WP. But the crusade over there was against fair use only, so they only approached the issues that fit their interests, again showing a complete lack of knowledge of international law.
Furthermore, you are mistaken about images used under the fair use license being free only in the US or other countries with fair-use-like legislation. In fact, it's not completely free even in the US. Fair use allows us to use images on the WP, for its purposes (non commercial, etc.), but that does not mean that anyone in the US could copy the image, again, "onto a t-shirt and sell it down the street". Also as I've stated there, tagging images is not intended exclusively to orientate wikipedians (as to whether to leave an image alone or list it for deletion), but rather it also serves the very important purpose of letting the visitor know that, even though that image is being used here, it is not completely free (or it is, depending on the tag that we've added). It's restricted in the US, it's restricted elsewhere, and since there are no wikipedia servers in the countries where the Portuguese-speaking users are located, and the data for that wikipedia is being hosted in the US (they have admitted that), international law allows the pt wp to use images under the fair use institution of the United States.
And finally, there’s a very relevant issue (I believe) of having a handful of users decide such a fundamental change in the website. My hypothetical question here (the title of this discussion) was precisely to know if something like that would be accepted here. Adjusting for the very different magnitudes of both communities, would such a decision made by a consensus of 70 users (there, it was 25) be acceptable to ban either fair use or some other main aspect of the image policy in effect here? Given the smaller numbers there, it’s even more problematic, since you can change the very nature of the project by having a vote in which a very small group, that represents one (biased?) train of thought, vote and decide for the community. Then, as the community slowly catches on (since the admins who are part of that group start deleting images all over the place), they come back with the good old “it’s already been voted and decided, come back in a year”. As I said there, that is not the same as reaching a consensus in a article. And did I mention that the period to vote was rather short? So, if you’ve been away for two weeks, you missed it, and it’s too late? For a change like that? That is not democracy, unless you’re thinking in terms of the 19th century. That is why I’ve withdrawn for the time being, in protest. Regards, Redux 22:03, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the inconsistency. The point is that fair use images cannot even be used under European law in the same context; it is illegal for Europeans to make a complete identical copy of the wikipedia. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. However, I found these mails by Jimbo on a mailing list: [1] and [2]:

"For example, I think it is a good thing that the German wikipedia is quite strict against fair use"

"I *do* make the same argument for removing fair-use from en as well"

Eugene van der Pijll 16:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Returning to Eugene's entry [way] above, I'd have to say, first off, that the pt:wp is not the property of the Europeans (in this particular case, meaning the Portuguese). If the laws of Portugal or any other specific country makes it harder to utilize the material from Wikipedia, the objective should be to create tags and warnings to let people know that the material may be further restricted in certain parts of the world. Banning fair use because the Europeans can't copy and distribute the material (here, the images) at home is a simplistic and national-centric solution, and it would create a crazy logic. For instance: let's ban all images that may be offensive for the Muslim world (meaning, no pictures of women in "revealing" clothes). The pt wp is not hosted in Portugal, or even in Europe for that matter, so there's no sense in banning content because hard copies of it would be restricted over there. Our responsibility is to provide ways to let people know about those restrictions (again, tags are not just meant for Wikipedians, but rather to let any user know of the status and eventual limitations of the images).
And how can you not see the inconsistency of arguing the "need for the material to be 100% free" to justify banning fair use and not touch the express permission for use, which Izwalito also brought up in his comment about the French WP? That's the pinnacle of inconsistency! A double standard, if you will. I guess I could even say that they used this excuse because the Portuguese who got fair use banned (they were the majority) didn't want to say with all the words: "we don't want fair use because we can't make as free a use of the material as others could". Are they envious? Bitter? I believe all of these may be true, but mainly they are suffering from the same problem that seems to plague the French WP: a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of how international law (especially with regards to the internet) works. It's no offense, but one of the strongest opposers of fair use in the Portuguese language project is an Admin who is 17 years old. Others may not be as young, but they too know nothing about international law or how the internet works (in terms of the legality of it) in contrast with their own national laws.
What would happen if people from all over the world started arguing the limitations of their own countries to supress material from an international project that is, for the most part, hosted in the United States (where the law gives us latitude to use at least some copyrighted material)? The project would be unworkable. Regards, Redux 00:07, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am thinking of refactoring this section somewhere. Would Wikipedia talk:Fair use be a good place, is there a better place, or should it stay here? Rad Racer | Talk 02:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Izwalito is a banned user. Sorry, but I do not think his comments should stay here. Anthere 22:20, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AIDS, HIV and other related articles

Could someone with a medical background please look over the recent edits to HIV and AIDS? One user is rewriting many sections to downplay the importance of antiretroviral therapy, removing mention of condoms and abstinence as preventative measures, and generally removing much information. Thanks. Rhobite 23:40, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

If you want help, I suggest you be more specific, rather than expecting people to look through the edit history of an article they haven't worked on in order to determine which "one user" has made edits you object to. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

The user in question is clearly Sci Guy, who's been systematically gutting the HIV and AIDS articles just as described, and rewriting them to his taste, slanting them away from the scientific concensus and towards emphasizing Duesbergian viewpoints. - Nunh-huh 06:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• I guess Duesbergian viewpoints should be included in the article, but I'm pretty sure you can undo the edits and include mention of condoms, antiretroviral therapy, and abstinence. Mgm|^(talk) 08:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Duesberg has always gotten more than his due: his "view" has never been excluded:the question before us is whether it should replace actual scientific facts: the edits under discussion delete information about the standard medical understanding of AIDS and seek to replace them with information AIDS dissidents would prefer to emphasize. -Nunh-huh 15:43, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this. Yes, it's sci guy. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific, but this isn't a case of recruiting for someone to go in and do a simple revert. I think this situation needs an honest assessment by people with medical backgrounds. I'm glad that Nunh-huh and Jfdwolff are on top of this. Rhobite 00:06, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we're quite on top of it. I'm glad to confirm your impression of what's going on, but the misrepresentation continues in a sort of death-by-a-thousand-cuts, and probably will continue as long as Sci Guy wants. The sabotage is subtle enough that not many people will be dealing with it, and I (at any rate) don't have the energy to combat a determined POV-pusher in this way. If it were a matter of reasoning with a well-intentioned individual, it would be one thing, but dealing with willful misrepresentations is something Wikipedia doesn't really deal with all that well. - Nunh-huh 04:56, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Where to go to discuss new features?

Is there a central place on WikiPedia that we can go to discuss new features for the MediaWiki software? Bugzilla.wikimedia.org, while great for reporting bugs, is just not good for feature discussion, and meta:MediaWiki feature request and bug report discussion, which appears to be the central discussion page, seems to be permananetly vandalized. (The top of the page says bizarre things like "This page is a black hole.")

- Pioneer-12 23:49, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• The so-called vandalism was posted by a developer. :) It may not be obvious how to do it, but Bugzilla is the best place for both bugs and feature requests. It's were developers hang out and where your request is most likely seen and acted upon. If you want to request a feature, be sure to include the words "Feature request" in the "bug's" name. Mgm|^(talk) 08:58, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to request features at this time; I want to discuss them. And just because he's a developer doesn't give him the right to vandalize a page because he doesn't like it. - Pioneer-12 00:01, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I don't see it as vandalism, it's informative in the sense that it informs you developers watch Bugzilla instead of that page, or would you prefer to have requests sit there without being seen? Anyway, you can discussion features here on the village pump if you want to. Mgm|^(talk) 08:20, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

I would prefer to have a central place set up to discuss features. We need a central place to keep track of feature suggestions so that people don't keep reinventing the wheel. Well defined feature proposals could then be submitted to bugzilla. Then everyone would be happy. Read my thoughts here - Pioneer-12 14:08, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Photos of emergency service boats

I have recently been to Venice and now have perfect photos of the following emergency cars boats:

• Lagoon police
• Prison police
• Municipal police
• National police (Polizia di Stato)
• Carabinieri
• New-style ambulances
• Old-style ambulances

I am willing for them to be used in Wikipedia, but I don't want to go through the trouble of uploading them and putting them into articles. So if you want them, email me at gwusenet<at>gmail<dot>com and I'll reply with them attatched.--212.100.250.208 07:55, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I've emailed this anon requesting the images. Mgm|^(talk) 09:05, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
  • Cool! Thanks both. Pcb21| Pete 11:55, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Changing article about Changing_attribution_for_an_edit

I was reading Wikipedia:Changing attribution for an edit to find how to personaly change the attribution of one single editing as described in Wikipedia:Changing attribution for an edit#General Notes the senence starting with Note that there is a simple way to "reclaim" such an inadvertently ....

Now thepage is very long and starts with a big message saying the service is disable. I undestood that is disable only the service made by developer not this simple way, but I thought that the most of users would not undestand this.

The instruction to to by ourself the simple revertion is not easy to found in this article. I would suggest to put in a more evident part of the article (for example just belove the red alert message at the beginnig). It would be nice if it would be inserted in some Help Section/Manual/How To (so that a user can have this information without having to go to that page, that is for the request to te developer) AnyFile 09:40, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Another active college project, FWIW

Creating lots of needy articles (mostly lack of wikification, intro problems, and other MoS issues, but also lots of untagged images, GIFs, cut&paste moves and other common newcomer errors, and occasional ESL issues, etc. (I've cleaned up some of them). See Method Engineering Encyclopedia/Talk:Method Engineering Encyclopedia. Niteowlneils 18:21, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I see it's also being discussed up in the Policy section. Niteowlneils 00:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Older versions of Encyclopedia Britannica

I've come across several articles with messages such as "Initial text from the 9th edition (1876) of an unnamed encyclopedia - please update as needed" and "This article uses text from the 9th edition (1880s) of an unnamed encyclopedia."

Is there a reason that Britannica isn't named here? Should a template be created for these, much like the template for the 1911 version? --BaronLarf 21:21, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

Are they really older editions of the Britannica? I think that a category should be created for these articles (something like "Articles based on unnamed encyclopedias"), much like the 1911 template does. --cesarb 00:07, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was kind of just assuming that they were from Britannica; it sounded like a tongue-in-cheek way of giving a source without mentioning Britannica. The dates and editions of the unnamed encyclopedia matches up with the Britannica.edition history Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

• Pope Valentinus
• Pope Clement XI
• Celestines
• Pierre Abélard original version; current version uses 1911 template
• Pope Urban III

Another solution would be to get more "up-to-date" information (though still 100 years old) from the 1911 edition and just use the 1911 template. --BaronLarf 01:44, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

It's quite possible that those were unnamed encyclopedias, even if they contained Britannica text. For example, foreign works weren't given copyright protection in the U.S. until 1891, making U.K. publications an attractive source of royalty-free content here. --iMb~Meow 02:18, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I recall, the reason for coyly not naming the Britannica was fear that they would sue for trademark reasons. - Nunh-huh 04:33, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The coyness is inappropriate. We can cite a source as legitimately as anyone else can. We are no more subject to a suit for mentioning this source than any other. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:59, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

What is the one article that every Wikipedia should have?

I've set up a small project, that I called Minipedia, to determine the most important article(s) for a Wikipedia to have. You can vote there for the articles you feel are most important. But there's a catch: You can only votes for articles in the Minipedia!

The idea is to write a collection of simple, short (max 1000 char) articles and vote for an order of importance. This will allow new, or small, wikipedias to get a jump start by translating the articles, or at least the important ones.

So far I've only written, and voted for, a few demo articles, but anyone with five minutes to spare should feel free to edit those or to add an important article to the Minipedia. Or if you have only a minute to spare: feel free to vote for the article every Wikipedia should have. Aliter 00:56, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A list has already been made, it's at m:List of articles all languages should have -- Tim Starling 04:45, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Tim, that list is indeed the inspiration for Minipedia.

• The voting in Minipedia is intended to create a single ordering, without bias.
• Minipedia is not intended as just a list; it is a set of articles ordered by importance. A new Wikipedia could start translating right there.

Aliter 16:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The whole thing seems to be on "Requests for deletion" at meta. Could someone explain here what is going on? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:02, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

I too noticed the coinciding of my announcement here and the occurence of all those request for deletion headers. Whether there is an explanation, I don't know. I've given my opinion on meta on that m:Requests for deletion page, and will leave it at that. Aliter 21:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Back (Again) (Again)

I'm back again, and staying this time! Can you believe it? (unsigned message from Ilyanep, 5 April 2005)

Google Satellite

http://maps.google.com/ is offering satellite pics, at least of the United States. They appear to have pretty good detail and resolution - better than anything else I can see on offer, anyways. What's the possibility of using these in Wikipedia?--Fangz 14:47, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I'm afraid that possibility is zilch (or non-existant). The maps in question bear a copyright mark, which is incompatible with both the GFDL and PD options we can choose from for Wikipedia. (see Wikipedia:Copyrights). Mgm|^(talk) 19:35, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit more work to create them, but as far as I know any images created with the NASA World Wind program are free. World Wind also covers the entire globe, although it will be most detailed for the United States. Please correct me if I'm wrong.-gadfium 23:06, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wow. The satellite imagery on Google Maps is amazing. Hmm, looking at satellite photos of New York gives me a strange urge to play SimCity. Rhobite 06:29, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Aerial photography has been avaialble from http://www.multimap.com for a while, with funky overlay of maps and photography - for example, see this and move the cursor over the map.

Where we don't have decent GFDL or PD maps and/or satellite/aerial photographs of places, perhaps articles should include a link to the relevant google maps and/or multimap? -- ALoan (Talk) 14:24, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well Google Maps has got some nice scrolling, but its coverage outside of the US is a bit patchy. Multimap is good too, but its aerial photo mode is limited to the more populated areas of UK only. Don't we already have a mechanism for linking to a selection of external map providers via a locations long & lat, similar to the ISBN book connections? -- Solipsist 07:00, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we already have that. Nearly all of the U.S.-related articles appear to have been automatically linked to the appropriate geo coordinates on Microsoft Terraserver-USA a while back by some bot. Terraserver already has USGS aerial photography that has much more resolution and detail than the Google Maps satellite photos from Keyhole, although the USGS photos are in color only for major U.S. cities. --Coolcaesar 08:41, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ye Olde Pages

Is there a list anywhere with the first Wikipedia pages? Fornadan 20:43, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Somewhere there is a version of Wikipedia as of late 2001 online. It's at xxx.wikipedia.org, but I can't remember what xxx stands for, and it doesn't seem to appear in the complete list of Wikimedia projects. I saw it within the last month, possibly through a reference on the mailing list. Can someone give the correct URL here please.-gadfium 23:16, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org —Korath (Talk) 04:47, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia's oldest articles. Niteowlneils 16:31, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

BBC

BBC online appear to have started to make it near common policy to give external links to related pages - mainly with their technology articles - on Wikipedia. See [3] linking to Valdemar Poulsen and [4] to Vlog - Estel (talk) 21:55, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Test-wiki

I want to find the test-wiki running the latest media-wiki. but the http://test.wikipedia.org has been Forbidden to visit. so please give me the right link if you know, Thanks a lot! --Vipuser 04:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)（talk!）

It's my understanding that the test wiki was taken down permanently, due to the inherent security problems of running non-production code on a production server. —Korath (Talk) 06:04, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Perplexing image edit

Can anyone tell me what is going on here.

Roadsign on the M6 Toll road in the UK.

The article M6 Toll is on my watchlist since I contributed the image. There was a minor change to the article today [5], but on checking it, I noticed that the photo looked different.

On examining the image page, I see that the image was apparently replaced by User:Ukipguy yesterday... now this is where it gets strange.

• The change to the image _doesn't_ show up on my watchlist.
• The new upload is allegedly by User:Ukipguy, but it also doesn't show up on their minimal contribution list
• Further the edit summary is Image with updated prices. Which would make sense, only the prices haven't changed — the only change appears to be the appearance of a UFO above the sign.

I've tried various image reloads to rule out cache problems, so now I'm perplexed. Is this a hoax? -- Solipsist 18:47, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Try [6] (from Special:Log/upload). You can also revert the image to your version. --cesarb 18:59, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It probably didn't show up in your watchlist because you were watching the article and not the image. Mgm|^(talk) 08:12, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

No, no, both are on my list. However, cesarb pointing to the upload log, indicates what is wrong - Ukipguy's change to Image:Kilroy.jpg doesn't show on his contribution list either (the previous image was bizarre and both should probably be deleted).

It looks like, contrary to expectations, overwriting an image doesn't trigger an event on your watchlist although editing the text on the image page does. Similarly reverting an image doesn't affect your watchlist either. Also overwriting an image doesn't show up on a user's contribution list, although a new upload does.

I guess it is a bug, or feature request for the developers. Major events like page moves don't show up in a page's edit history either, so I guess there are a number of actions which may not be flagged the way you would expect. -- Solipsist 08:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Another one which doesn't show is removing a page from a category (when using Special:Recentchangeslinked). Watchlists are full of holes. By the way, a new upload shows as a user contribution because it also creates the corresponding Image: text page. --cesarb 13:06, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hypothetical Discussion (Just for fun) - If all males under 20 were exterminated from this site

Can you imagine how much better off we would be? Lotsofissues 23:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As a male under 20, I feel that I must express my heartiest agreement boffy_b 23:54, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)

• Why just the males? If you do something do it right immediately. On the other hand, some of our best editors fall in that category, I'd have to disagree, we'd probably be off worse with a major mutiny to get rid off. Luckily I'd be unaffected by such a thing myself. Where did you get the idea, even if it's hypothetical? Mgm|^(talk) 08:15, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
  • I have to agree with Mgm - you would also loose to many good editors. However, proposals such as meta:Friends of gays should not be allowed to edit articles might work. -- Solipsist 09:02, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• MGM, after doing general custodial work for the last couple of days I have connected an undeniable empirical conclusion found in real life to wikipedia: Under 20 males are assholes with an additional unsuppressable urge to rampage like assholes. Who else goes on frenzied cockring.jpg paste binges? Girls? (haha) 23 year olds? (Well maybe contentious political entries) I just want to point out the cost of productivity in watching for vandalism - maybe start a informal calculus of the contributions of somewhat mature contributers from this group to the entire population of vandals who largely come from this group (all for fun). Lotsofissues 01:28, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm under 20 and male and don't consider myself an asshole. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 03:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I don't consider you an asshole either: you are quite a good contributor; people need to be judged on their individual merits; still, it would astound me if the majority of the vandals and edit warriors are not young and male. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:37, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

I'm over 20 and consider myself an asshole Dan100 16:40, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Dot Org Boom

Hello.

I will be in Stockholm from late 11th of april till late 12th of april. And not even time for a coffee I fear. However... I will present wikipedia at a very small meeting in Stockholm before going to a bigger thing in Finland... and the organiser told me wikipedians would be welcome to join if they were interested. I copied the information page on meta m:Dot Org Boom.

It is mandatory to register. But it is free (lunch as well). The event is on the 12th of april. If some of you have time to join for part or all of the day, I would be delighted to meet them. Feel free to join. the event takes place in the Embassy of Finland, www.finland.se, address is Gärdesgatan 11

Anthere 03:28, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A bookmarklet, for me?

Anyone out there that knows js on a higher level than me may want to help me here... I want to put a bookmarklet into my link tab in firefox so that when I'm in an edit page, it adds {{subst:User:Ilyanep/Wel}} into the edit, Welcome! into the edit summary, and perferably clicks the 'watch this page' button. The reason I'd like to have this is because I'm becoming too lazy to type this out (and deal with all the autocomplete things...) Thanks a lot in advance to anyone who takes this up ! (is it possible?) :) — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 04:22, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) Note: I'd probably also use this as a template for my admin, bureaucrat, test1-4, ban, and copyvio messages :) — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 04:25, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Can't you simply put that code in the signature field in your preferences, choose to have a raw signature (without the added code to the front and back) and just sign using the four tildes as usual? Also, that bookmarklet has to distinguish between talk pages and article pages as articles shouldn't be signed anyway.
  • You're failing to understand the meaning...I have my signature loaded into my pref field and I sign with four tildes, but I'm talking about my welcome message — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 13:51, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, if that fails, could you paste the code from your subpage into that field? Mgm|^(talk) 08:18, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

If you go to "Preferences", "Editing", from there you can click "Add pages you edit to your watchlist" and that would take care of at least that part... Jaberwocky6669 08:27, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

var f = document.editform, t = f.wpTextbox1;
if (t.value.length > 0)
  t.value += '\n';
t.value += '{{subst:User:Ilyanep/Wel}}';
f.wpSummary.value = 'Welcome!';
f.wpWatchthis.checked = true;

Here you go. —Korath (Talk) 09:14, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you :) — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 13:51, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now, how would I put that into a bookmarklet? I tried adding javascript: and then pasting the rest in and it didn't work... — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 13:54, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can't help you there; I don't use Firefox. Let me know what skin you use, though, and I can make it into a tab or quickbar link. —Korath (Talk) 14:27, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Cool, that would be better than a bookmarklet...I use monobook, thanks a lot — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 14:43, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Copy User:Korath/welcome.js into your User:Ilyanep/monobook.js and you should be set. —Korath (Talk) 15:21, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! This will be useful! — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 15:40, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia's explosion in popularity

What happened to cause Wikipedia's explosion in popularity in October, 2004?

Did Wikipedia start a new advertizing campaign then? Start getting major news coverage? Get better treatment by search engines? The site traffic, after being fairly steady for half a year, almost doubled within a month.

- Pioneer-12 13:34, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

m:Wikipedia.org is more popular than... has a possible explanation:

Dramatic ranking jumps:

[...]

• Aug 2004: New machines come online.

(Wikipedia's growth tends to be limited by the servers' load)

--cesarb 13:49, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Freedom of information logo

At this page[7] there is a logo which ought to go on Freedom of Information Act 2000. Could someone upload it?--212.100.250.214 07:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Done. Zzyzx11 | Talk 16:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

TRYING TO TRACE FAMILY TREE from Uk

Hullo,

My wife is interested in tracing a long lost relative, or more likely, his sons or daughters. She has very little information, but hopefully the following is correct.

He was probably a headmaster at a school in the Gilbert and Ellice Islands during the early 1950s. My wife has a stamp from G&E Islands commemorating Queen Elizabeth's coronation taken from a letter addressed to my wife's aunt. My wife would have been aged about 10 at that time.

He was probably Welsh, and POSSIBLY called Mr Jones.

And that is about all we know, but somebody might remember him, or be able to suggest where we should go to next. We have only just realised how large an area your islands cover.

My wife is trying to trace her family history in South Wales, and is having dificulty going further back than her maternal Grandmother.

Perhaps anybody with information or advice would email her on Sabresix@aol.com. My wife's name is Barbara Williams, and her mother's family name was Jones.

My fingers are crossed.

John Williams South Wales United Kingdom

Sorry, Wikipedia is not involved in any way with geneology (unless you're a member of the Kennedy Family or similarly famous). There are plenty of sites on the web that are, though. Try searching for geneology, or check our article. Best, Meelar (talk) 17:58, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

The best that we can offer, short of a knowledgable genealogist running acroos this post, is our Category:Genealogy. Perhaps posting to one of those talk pages may yield some results? – ClockworkSoul 18:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, this listing in particular may be useful to you: Family Records Centre. Good luck! – ClockworkSoul 18:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gmail invites

[Deleted]

Quit spamming the pump with commercial advertising. Anyone who wants a gmail invite can just search the web for one, isnoop.net alone have 813,000 on offer. -- Tim Starling 06:51, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

My apologies, I originally got my account because someone was kind enough to share their invites here. I just thought I'd return the favor.

Darrien 00:42, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)

Insulting nicknames for redirects?

Should insulting nicknames for politicians be made into redirects (e.g. Slick Willy---->Bill Clinton or Dumbya---->George W. Bush)? Vote at Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion. Meelar (talk) 19:24, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

• No. Do you really think someone's going to go to an encyclopedia and search for "Dumbya"? —Wahoofive | Talk 23:09, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm the one saying they should be deleted, but there's controversy. I'd urge people to vote if they're interested. Meelar (talk) 02:01, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Depends if they're encyclopedic or not. This discussion should really be on policy, not misc. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:28, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Painting in Purgatory Article

Hi!

I have really fallen in love with the painting depicted in the purgatory article. It is entitled "Anima Sola" and says it is from a holy card. I would really like to find the name of the artist who painted this piece. Is it known, or is it lost to history? If anyone can help me in this search that would be great.

Thanks!

What the...

Humm, what do you make of this? An article about a sci-fi television show that deals with abductions and someone leaves a story about their own alleged (of course) abduction?? Please. Notice that, although this comment was not signed, it was written by a registered user. This user has been around for some time, but has made a limited number of contributions, and has never signed any of his comments on talk pages. Really, I don't know what to do with this. Should we blank this, or leave it there? Regards, Redux 00:59, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Just stick it on an archive page. I don't know if it's policy, but it will make you feel better and won't delete anything. —Wahoofive | Talk 03:42, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Nah - Throw a title on it and leave it be. It's on a talk page, so what's the harm? Personally, I love coming across these bizarre little nuggets in the WikiLandscape. – ClockworkSoul 03:46, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Search Feature

I just did a standard search in the search box for something I didn't get an article on but I did get web search results back. Is the feature back on? Am I just realllly slow??? Nrbelex ^(talk)

• Currently, the feature is on. But it could be turned off again if there is a huge surge in hits all happening at the same time to Wikipedia's web site again. Zzyzx11 | Talk 05:10, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

gaim plugin for Wikipedia links

Hello, I'm announcing the first alpha-release of a gaim plugin for translating Wikipedia links. Those using gaim can now talk the same way IRC users do (with those nice scripts installed). They will now get all the [[links]] translated to a fully working URL. It's late here, please forward this message to a better place, I'm not a regular user of en:wp. Thanks in advance! Try it and comment! Nuno Tavares 04:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How to spot a sockpuppet?

Hi all - I've spotted what looks to me suspiciously like a sockpuppet...but I can't be certain. Is there a hard-and-fast way of being sure of such things? If there is - or if there isn't for that matter, could someone who has some experience in such matters contact me, either at my talk page or by email with what to do about it? Grutness|^hello? 12:45, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's a page about them, which has a 'Characteristics' section: Wikipedia:Sock puppet. Usually they pretend to have just signed up, but know about Wikipedia procedures a little too well, and tend to have edits only on the pages being disputed. — PMcM 16:04, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Error on Main Page

in "Today's featured article" - on the discussion page someone described it a few hours ago ... greetings -- Schusch 18:48, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image filter

In response to complaints about certain offensive images being used for vandalism (most notably Image:Autofellatio 2.jpg), I've introduced a bad image list, which contains a list of images which cannot be included inline in articles. Inline images are replaced with links to the description page. I only implemented this feature because the current compromise on Autofellatio is amenable to it -- I hope this will be used as an anti-vandalism feature not as a means of censorship.

The feature is implemented for page views not for saves, so it acts retrospectively on diffs such as this one. It's pretty likely that the vandal will try to get around the filter by uploading the same image with a different name every time, but that's what this game is about: increasing the cost to them while reducing the cost to us. -- Tim Starling 06:06, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

VandalBot Needed

Hi. I am busy trying to modify wikimedia code to protect against so-called VandelBots. Does anyone know where I can get one so I can test it against my test-wikipedia to see if my code changes are working? Stormtroop 13:18, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nice try. No one is going to provide you with a "vandalbot". ✏ OvenFresh² 16:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I'm sure if you ask a regular Wikipedia vandal nicely they'd be happy to apply and vandalize you till you drop. Mgm|^(talk) 19:00, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

• If you'll point me to your wiki, I can write up a vandalbot to start hammering it. --Carnildo 19:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I do admire the chutzpah. Meelar (talk) 05:57, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Help required with survey for University project

Hello,

I'm currently completing my MSc dissertation at University, and require some sample data. The project I am completing aims to explore why people contribute to open-source projects, of which I believe Wikipedia is one of the most unique, and topical.

I have produced an online survey, located at: http://www.petermcm.dircon.co.uk/msc/ consisting of eight questions, which should take less than two minutes to complete. If you are interested in receiving a copy of my paper when it is completed, you can fill in your e-mail address, or other contact details, although this is not required.

I'm also interested in interviewing some Wikipedia contributors for five minutes or so, via either IRC or Instant Messaging (preferably AIM, although Yahoo! and MSN are also options). If you are interested in volunteering for this, please contact me either through my talk page, or the e-mail address provided on the survey page, above. Thanks! — PMcM 15:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

done --Alterego 16:32, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

PS

If I were able to obtain the Pelican shit vandal's "real" IP, would it be of any use? ✏ OvenFresh² 16:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Developing Compensated Write Policy

As Wikipedia grows into a first look resource like Google, organizations will have an incentive to hire estabished members to write for them. Here is an example [8] Should we develop a policy?

Lotsofissues 23:40, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it would be possible to ban companies paying people to deal with Wikipedia. But I am troubled by his offer of money to the person who starts an article on the organization. It raises obvious issues of NPOV to be taking money from the subject of the article. I think the practice of rewards for writing about certain subjects, paid by the subjects themselves, should be forbidden. Of course, it's too late in the current case, and I do admire that they're being forthright about what they're doing, as opposed to sneakily doing this. Meelar (talk) 06:35, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing to worry about. If a corporation pays an editor to write an article about them, and the article is NPOV, then chances are likely that someone will put an NPOV flag on the page. If that were to happen, the corporation would then have controversy surrounding their name, whether or not that were previously the case. On the other hand, if an editor writes a well-balanced article about the corporation the encyclopedia benefits, the company gains neutral publicity, and they don't have a scar of controversy. It should be noted that article controversy lives on in search engines, as they do index talk pages[9], so this would be a permanent mark on their name. That said, I am accepting checks and paypal!!! ;) (also consider, if an established editor would like to keep their reputation, it would only be in their benefit to write NPOV articles. this can only be good for the encyclopedia) --Alterego 18:22, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

You mean if they article is POV. NPOV is the thing we should aim for. Mgm|^(talk) 10:23, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Very active vandal

Hi. Today, a vandal opperating under the IP address 142.22.16.50 vandalized an article with which I was involved. I was particularly impressed by the number of edits (all acts of vandalism, reverted by two different users, and one of them had to do it twice!) he performed on a single day (all close together, indicating his intention of messing the article). When I checked his history of contributions, I verified that he's been around, solely vandalizing articles, for six months!! And I verified that the edits throughout this period of time (I checked different edits from different months) were all acts of vandalism. Over a period of six months, that's not a misguided anon, that's a "criminal". Can someone block this IP address? Regards, Redux 23:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism alerts are best dealt with at Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress (shortcut: WP:VIP), block requests are best presented at Wikipedia:Administrator's noticeboard/Incidents (shortcut: WP:AN/I). Thryduulf 13:03, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Japanese nationalism (Chinese vandalism?)

The user 201.226.141.77 is linking articles to a Japanese nationalism article that are unrelated to Japanese nationalism (like the Japanese Communist Party, Hachiman, and daimyo). I have already deleted the link to the JCP. While I welcome a Japanese nationalism article, to attribute everything related to Japan politically/historically/culturally to "nationalism" is a far stretch. It seems to me that this user has a set non-neutral (anti-Japanese) agenda. This is happening to other sites on the web also [[10]].

Here is one quote recently added by this user to the Hachiman article: "the cult of these God are higthy promoted for Japanese Imperial forces how one of your religious supports for your ideologycal national doctrines during Pacific War times." The writers use of "your" is interesting. It seems to suggest that the contributor is assuming that the article will be read by Japanese people.

I also find the neutrality of the Japanese nationalism article questionable. It is also poorly constructed. Pictures are floating. The Vietnamese language link does not go to an article.

Besides a lot of complaining on my part, is there something that can be done? -Mp623 13:48 15 Apr 2005

The contributor posting from IP 201.226.141.77 claims to have previously gone by the user name Wladk. Is this person a previously deleted user? -Mp623 16 Apr 2005

What is going on with sandbot?

Take a look at this edit: [11] Lotsofissues 09:50, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think sandbot just makes sure that the appropriate template is the first line in the page. In this case there were spurious headers from other sandboxes below that, but sandbot was ignoring them as it does user tests. I've removed them.-gadfium 09:56, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Requested article

Bleep test. See the following links for information, and a Google search for it.

• [12]
• [13]

Thanks, --213.18.248.24 12:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I added this request to one of the request subpages - you can view it here BTW, I've noticed you have a colorful undetermined history at Wikipedia. You make helpful formatting changes and corrections however you vandalize just as much. I hope you choose to stay the course of the former. What is the point of damaging the integrity of a project you've contributed to? Lotsofissues 14:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could be multiple people on one IP. Nickptar 16:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm planning to take images from Bridgeman for articles

Is any picture of a painting up to the early 20th century from the Bridgeman archive available through gettyone.com fair game? I plan to embark on a illustrate wikipedia project. Articles without images such as polo will soon include material from Bridgeman. Lotsofissues 14:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)