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Pennsylvania Mid‑importance

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Baseball: Little League Mid‑importance

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1992 controversy

Move to new page titled 1992 Little League World Series - The page should not be moved into this page, which is on the Little League World Series in general, not just the 1992 event. Rather, there is precedent on this subject to create individual pages for the specific tournaments - 2000, 2005 and 2006 have their own Wikipedia pages, titled 2000 Little League World Series, etc. I would suggest that the page regarding the 1992 controversy be moved to a new page dedicated just to the 1992 Little League World Series, on which other information could be added if other Wikipedians wish to expand it.--DaveOinSF 18:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Go for it. Search 4 Lancer 22:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Updated 1999 results

The winning and losing teams were reversed. I've switched them back to show Japan as the winning team based on this article: [1]

3 states?

Shouldn't it be "4 states" that don't crown a state champion: California, Texas, S. Dakota, and N. Dakota?

Nysports 00:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Nysports[reply]

3 states (part 2)

Seeing no objection I changed 3 exceptions to 4

Go team!

Maybe I'm missing the point, but, shouldn't the links go to the winning team, not the town? Trekphiler 01:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But the winning team often doesn't have an article. --Howard the Duck 12:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And probably doesn't deserve one, either. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 23:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:LittleLeagueLogo.jpg

Image:LittleLeagueLogo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Critics

There should be section on critics of the LLWS. Many believe that it puts too much pressure on the kids, and gives viewers who are kids the wrong impression of what sports should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.229.128.169 (talk) 13:49, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Um, I'd like to see some concrete evidence of this, as I've never heard of them before. Megarockman (talk) 19:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Europe Region

The LLWS website shows the creation of a new Europe region, split off from the EMEA (now just MEA, presumably for Middle East and Africa). Transatlantic has disappeared. Does anyone know the details? Megarockman (talk) 19:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect 1989 Champion listed.

Kentucky is listed for winning the 1989 LLWS. It was actually Trumbull CT, led by NHL star Chris Drury, who won the 1989 LLWS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.251.142 (talk) 16:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up, it is fixed now Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan/Chinese Taipei

So the past champions list on the LLWS website mentions all the Taiwanese teams as "Chinese Taipei", but most of the LLWS-related articles on Wikipedia still refer to them as Taiwan (especially because they sometimes get reverted to back to Taiwan when they had been Chinese Taipei), including this very article. Doesn't this mean Taiwan should be referred to as Chinese Taipei on all the LLWS articles? As far as I know, every Taiwanese team in an international competition, such as the Olympics or the World Baseball Classic, goes by Chinese Taipei because they have to. Tampabay721 (talk) 06:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But you should understand that "Taiwan" is a "Country" that "Chinese Taipei" is a "Team" and as we know Taiwan is not a part of China.If you use "team"for title then you can write Chinese Taipei but if is "Country",you'd better say Taiwan.

I know many of you cannot understand the relation between Chinese Taipei and Taiwan has how much different to others.Taiwan is not so popular now, if you still use "Chinese Taipei" to replace "Taiwan" in the title "country", it'll be a big disaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.160.28.252 (talk) 09:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems that Little League has taken this "risk" by doing so already, as I've shown in the provided link. Tampabay721 (talk) 17:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Wikipedia page on Chinese Taipei, the name was not adopted until November of 1979. Perhaps we can divide the usage of the names at the 1980 LLWS? As in, Taiwan before and Chinese Taipei after?Jojorocko (talk) 05:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's something I think would be appropriate. As an example, that appears to be what has been done for the nation's olympic teams (See how [Taiwan] at the 1976 Winter Olympics is used for their teams prior to 1979, and Chinese Taipei at the 1984 Summer Olympics is used once their boycott ended). Tampabay721 (talk) 06:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I undid my own reverts for the years in which the name "Chinese Taipei" was used, since I was clearly in error in doing so. The rest of the years probably need further discussion as changing the older versions would seem to amount to political revisionism, regardless of whether the LLWS has already accepted it, it needs to be examined in the context of our own guidelines on naming and NPOV. Triona (talk) 22:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Championship Tally- US vs. International

The section states that the US is tied with The International teams with 32 titles apiece. However, this does not mention the fact that the US has appeared in every LLWS, while several editions of the LLWS were US-Only (Notably in 1975.) This also neglects to mention that the US is guaranteed a spot in the Championship game, which gives them a 50/50 chance of winning the LLWS. A better table would be to put the international teams championship tally by country vs the individual US states. This would mean the the top 5 would be Taiwan with 17, then Japan with 7 then California with 4. etc. This would give some objectivity on a clearly American-biased event. 1906cubs (talk) 20:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First off, I would remove the US vs. International table completely. Then what about just removing the United States from the "All countries" table and making it international teams only, and keep that table seperate from the table of U.S. states? Also for the infobox, it would read Chinese Taipei/Taiwan with 17 for the "most titles" parameter. Tampabay721 (talk) 21:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with the removal of the US as all time leader, to be completely honest, the United States should not appear on any of the records, since there is no team that participates in the LLWS under the name "United States." This would be equivalent to the Olympics giving credit to US states for medal count even though the states compete under the name United States.1906cubs (talk) 22:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to be fair, almost every team (US and international) is from a single area in their respective country, but they can get to chance to represent their country in the LLWS. But yes, I would also agree with removing the US since it has an automatic spot in every championship, even if they play in their own separate bracket.

There's another point I wanted to bring up though: the use of Republic of China, Taiwan, and Chinese Taipei. All the LLWS results before 1987 list it as simply Taiwan, which makes sense since Taiwan is the common name for the Republic of China. I think it would be fine to just use "Taiwan" but link to the Republic of China (the political entity), kind of like how we use "South Korea" instead of "Republic of Korea" or "Mexico" instead of the "United Mexican States" (i.e. because nobody calls it that). The other note is that although the term "Chinese Taipei" was first introduced in 1980, the LLWS does not use it until 1987. Calling Taiwan/Republic of China that before then isn't really accurate in terms of LLWS records. Thoughts? Thanks! -Multivariable (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The thing about Chinese Taipei vs. Taiwan/ROC is something I brought up last year, (see the section above this one). The problem I was having that I knew the LLWS didn't always refer to Taiwanese teams as Chinese Taipei. However "Chinese Taipei" is listed as the winner for every championship the country has ever won on their website. That's obviously impossible since the name "Chinese Taipei" wasn't around prior to the 1980s, as far as I know. Still, I knew the LLWS (or at least ABC's coverage of the tournament) didn't start using the name "Chinese Taipei" immediately, having seen footage from the 1982 tournament that was won by Kirkland, Washington. So the consensus last year ended up being to just list any Taiwanese participant prior to 1981 as being from Taiwan/ROC, and those from 1981 to the present as Chinese Taipei. Tampabay721 (talk) 01:25, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see now, should have read the rest of the Discussion page before bringing this up. I looked through the results individually (on the LLWS site, e.g.[2]) from each year to find that "Chinese Taipei" didn't appear until 1987; before that it just said "Taiwan". If the issue is about what the LLWS past champions page lists now (which like you mentioned, isn't entirely accurate) or the 1979 introduction of the term "Chinese Taipei", wouldn't it make more sense just to use whatever name the LLWS used in that year (since we are fortunate to have results from each year)? That way you don't have to worry about when the term started being used and can just focus on the team name for that year. Sorry for beating a dead horse here. Thanks! -Multivariable (talk) 02:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that since the individual tournament pages up to 1986 use the term Taiwan and the red and blue flag, that the main page should use the term Taiwan and the red and blue flag up to 1986,(honestly Taiwan should be used all the time but that is just my opinion.) Also another idea is to create a wiki page dedicated to the dominance of Taiwan and their history in the LLWS and other international tournaments. I say this because i see that mexico has a similar page. 1906cubs (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should be used up until 1986, but Taiwan shouldn't be used anymore because the team doesn't compete as Taiwan anymore, just like the nation doesn't compete as Taiwan in the Olympics or the World Baseball Classic. Mexico in the Little League World Series exists because Mexico is its own region but had other teams compete as the winner of the Latin America region prior to the expansion to 16 teams in 2001. It's similar to Japan in the Little League World Series and Canada in the Little League World Series. Tampabay721 (talk) 21:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So I updated the champions page and put "Taiwan" in up to 1986. For some reason little league reverted to calling it Taiwan for '94 and '95, so i used Taiwan for those years also. The basis for this is the tournament brackets on ll.org for each year, i assume this is official and therefore is a valid reason to use Taiwan.1906cubs (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I put Chinese Taipei back in the infobox because they are the same team, after all. Tampabay721 (talk) 22:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, based on these two links [3] [4] they were called Chinese Taipei in 1994 and 1995. Tampabay721 (talk) 22:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was using these brackets [5] [6] They call them Taiwan.1906cubs (talk) 23:13, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly one contradicts the other, but considering it's still a post-1986 tournament, I think they should still be called Chinese Taipei. Tampabay721 (talk) 23:17, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you can tell for sure which one was written first and which one was written later: the ones 1906cubs mentioned look like scanned in results/brackets (and are dated at latest 1999), while the ones Tampabay721 mentioned were typed later (dated 2002, based on the year stamp). I thought the main reason for changing some of them to "Taiwan" (despite being post-1980) was because that was the name that was used at the time. In this case, it should be pretty clear that the 2002 version was written later (when Chinese Taipei was well in use), and that they just used that name when re-typing up the records. Didn't we have this issue before when Tampabay721 mentioned this site: [7] Thoughts? Thanks! -Multivariable (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just wish there was a way to watch the games from the 80s and 90s to see what they were referred to as, instead of all this ambiguity from littleleague.org, haha. Tampabay721 (talk) 23:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. At least we're in the internet era and not digging through archives in a public library, lol. -Multivariable (talk) 00:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty sure that LLWS changed from Taiwan to Chinese Taipei when ABC did, which would have been in 1984, as that is when the IOC started using the term, and ABC probably didn't want to confuse people (or possibly upset the IOC, which was glad to have Beijing finally competing) by calling them Chinese Taipei at the Olympics and then Taiwan at the LLWS. That Don Guy (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have some excellent ideas. A single chart does not cut it. It should be several charts divided into defined eras. I think we are being a little hard on the USA here though by continuing to point out the USA gets an "automatic" berth in the LLWS. That may be true but there are also other thngs equally relevent such as the fact that Japan which has less than 1,000 teams gets to compete automatically every single year while California that has over 22,000 teams has to fight other states every single year for an opportunity to go. Canada and Mexico also have automatic berths to the international competition. In addition to that the fact that Europe and MEA pools are so poor they have only won 2 games in 3 years and one of those was played against each other, seems to favor the international teams by giving them a handicap in the seeds. All of things are issues but I think Little League does keep things in perspective, afterall this event is a youth sport and also involves complicated logistics. BAFRIEND (talk) 13:27, 2 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BAFRIEND (talk • contribs) 13:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be great to add a US bar at the top for the winners table, perhaps with the US name italicized and rank given as just a dash. Similar to how the EU is listed in tables that also include EU countries. The addition would look like this: | — || United States || 34 || 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1970, 1975, 1982, 1983, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1998, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2016 |-

People have rejected this in the past but I think it does improve Wikipedia by making the information about when the US won that much clearer. Woshiwaiguoren (talk) 06:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this 100%. Can we make a consensus about this so it can be changed on the page. ANTbook365 (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently no consensus for this. Also because this tournament is split into TWO brackets, that means there will always be a team from the United States in final, which will be uneven to the other teams if you add them all up. It also includes results of when it only a U.S.-exclusive event. Kiwifist (talk) 03:23, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since we obviously are at a disagreement, can you open a discussion where a consensus can be gathered on the matter? I'm still a bit unfamiliar with how to do certain things on this site. But as you can see some others do agree with me on the matter so it is important to gather a real consensus. And also to elaborate on what you are saying, I understand your point but if you are concerned with the simple fact of it being uneven just because a U.S. represented team is in the finals every year, then you can also make a case that its uneven and unfair that states like California have over 20,000 participating Little League teams ever year compared to the amount of participating Little League clubs that are in other states and even other regions and countries. Isn't that also unfair for other competition? I understand your point for it being unfair, but since the LLWS is a U.S. made event, and since there are a much higher number of American participating Little League clubs than international clubs from each countries, it makes some sense on why it is that way. In my opinion it does not look right to have a table with international countries tallies going against individual U.S. state. I understand your side of the argument, where the U.S. team is always guaranteed a spot in the championship and how there were some tournaments held before any other countries were introduced; but on the contrary, its also unfair to tally countries against US states, when as a whole the United States ranked as a country has more championships. It would make more sense to me if a table was made tallying wins from U.S. states comparing them to regions, Providences, etc. from other countries. However, I feel that would not work either since its hard to compare U.S. states, to regions, to cities, to provinces, etc. from other countries. So I propose that we come to a consensus and figure this out. A mutual proposition that I have is that two tables should be made. I propose that one table just has U.S. states while the other just has countries including the United States. Also, for any argument that the U.S. is not a team I disagree since the U.S. represented team that wins the U.S. finals in the tournament is known in the finals as the United States and by their state/region. I'm not going to make any edits until a consensus is made, I know and now realize my wrongs in doing edited without a consensus in the past and I apologize for that. However, I do feel you are being one sided on the matter and are not open to come to a mutual agreement. I encourage that if you still disagree with my ideas and or compromise, that you offer other ideas and opinions of yours as well so progress with this can be made. Lets gather a consensus and finally make this right. Some agreement needs to be made and I am open to talk and find something that majority agrees on, I hope you feel the same. ANTbook365 (talk) 04:31, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, we can wait for more input from other people, as this thread was specifically created to address that U.S. bias, but there is currently no consensus here for your change. Simply put, there is no team called "United States" represented, even on the official LLWS website. All the news media, references, sources, as well as our own article, call it by the states. Wikipedia goes by what sources and references say, and the article reflects that. It's simply how the tournament is formatted and set up. Trying to say otherwise would be POV-pushing. Kiwifist (talk) 05:43, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ABC Wide World of Sports Telecasts

After fruitless google searches I have concluded that the championship telecasts by abc from the 70's through the 90's are nowhere to be found. It would be nice if those games could be put on the internet. I'm sure that abc (or espn now) has those tapes in their archives somewhere. Perhaps if ll.org was e-mailed they could talk to espn, they would throw a little more weight around than a random individual. Maybe little league does not want those games to be released, due to the futility of the U.S. during those periods. I for one am curious to see just how good those far east teams were, especially Taiwan. 1906cubs (talk) 02:35, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think the futility of the US teams was the result of their abilities or does the fact Taiwan dropped out of LLWS for five years after LL stated it would enforce the age and pool regulations make other factors relevent. BAFRIEND (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More evidence of US Bias

Little League attempts to present this as a world event celebrating fairness and sportsmanship. However, this "world" series guarantees a spot in the title game for a US team. Allows at least half of the competing teams to be from the United States, most years the majority of teams are from the US with expat teams from overseas. This event seems great on the surface, but when one looks into the details the outcome of large bias in favor of the US is unmistakable.

One piece of evidence I found to support this was which stadium the games are played in. In 2001 a new stadium "Volunteer" was built when the field doubled to 16 teams. However, Volunteer is clearly the 2nd rate stadium when compared to Lamade. Lamade features the picturesque hillside outfield that allows thousands of spectators. Volunteer looks like a normal little league field by comparison. With this in mind, look at the stadium assingments for pool play games on the International and US sides.

US games played in Lamade-6-7-5-5-9-10-6-9-8-13-12-12- Total=102

International games Lamade-5-5-6-6-5-4-5-5-5-2-3-4-Total=55

US games in Volunteer-6-5-7-7-3-2-5-3-4-1-1-1- Total=45

Int games in Volunteer-7-7-6-6-7-8-6-7-7-10-9-9- Total=89

Seeing the data it is clear that at the beginning of the 2 park era the games were evenly split, with the International side even playing more games in Lamade. However, it should be noted that many of the Lamade games that the international side gets are at the beginning of each session, the primetime games are almost always US. But for the past few years a trend is beginning to develop. Lamade is becoming the US field, with some marquee International games. And Volunteer is becoming the International field. Little League tries to pass this event off as being wholesome, even going as far as forcing the kids to wear "I won't cheat" on their uniforms. But it is clear that their intention is for a US event, with a side show that is the international tournament over at Volunteer.1906cubs (talk) 00:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take everything you state at face value. Then take into account the fact that there are about 2,200,000 Little League players in the USA. In the rest of the world there are less than 130,000 players. California, I am guessing the largest state playing with around 25000 teams, yet it has to compete with Utah, Oregon, Hawaii, and Nevada to go to the series.California does not get an automatic pass but Mexico and Japan get to send teams every year ? So, the eight international teams that make up about 6% of the player pool get 50% of the teams while the United States that has 94% of the players only gets 50% of the teams. Sounds to me like the bias is in favor of the international teams.BAFRIEND (talk) 18 April 2014 — Preceding undated comment added 08:37, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Region name vs. Country/State

I used to think that for each year, identifying each team that made it to Williamsport by the region they won (i.e. West, Mid-Atlantic, Latin America, Asia-Pacific) was the right way to go since the flag that preceded the name was right there, so I changed many of the articles throughout the years to be heavy on regions. Although I've begun to think that most readers aren't able to identify each state or country's flag. I'm proposing for anyone out there who sees this to give an opinion on whether it should be standard in the playoff bracket to identify each team just by the country or state they represent. I know previously teams would be identified by city and country, but I feel that would be too long. For example, the 2009 elimination round would show as:

Quarter-finals		Semi-finals		Final

August 26 – 4:00 pm – Lamade

C2 Japan	0
		August 29 – Noon – Lamade
D1 Mexico	6
		Mexico	4
August 27 – 4:00 pm – Lamade
		Chinese Taipei	9
D2 Chinese Taipei	5
				August 30 – 3:00 pm – Lamade
C1 Curaçao	2
				Chinese Taipei	3
August 26 – 8:00 pm – Lamade
				California	6
A2 New York	1
		August 29 – 7:00 pm – Lamade (F/4)
B1 Texas	4
		Texas	2
August 27 – 8:00 pm – Lamade
		California	12	Third place
B2 California	11
				August 30 – 11:00 am – Volunteer
A1 Georgia	10
				Mexico	5

				Texas	4

Perhaps more emphasis on the circumstance that led to the 1975 international ban and rescinding the ban?

I'm not informed on exactly what happened around 1975, other than there seemed to be accusations, investigations and decisions that occurred that, for better or worse, were extremely important to the history of the LLWS. Perhaps a paragraph or two outlining this time period would be fitting, including a brief summary of how key rules or LL audits and documentation requirement changed as a result of this period. I'm not nearly informed enough to write it, other than hearing a bunch of accusations as a player at that time (Taiwan was really sending all-star teams instead of local teams, trained year-round and many other accusations.

1985 Mexicali Team

The Champions list current has Calexico, CA as the runner-up to Seoul in 1985. However, the team is listed as being from Mexicali, Mexico because it advanced via California tournaments, so shouldn't that town be the one listed? 72.82.176.252 (talk) 00:00, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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LLWS

I'm open to discuss the edits being made on the LLWS wikipedia page. In the table that tallies the championships, I feel the US as a country should be represented on the table. I put the U.S. rank on the table with a dash (-), meaning that they aren't apart of the ranking but have the most championships. This same kind of situation can be seen on the GDP page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal). On this page the European Union is represented with a dash (-) as they have the unofficial 2nd highest GDP but aren't a single country. Since the table tallies championships by states for the U.S. I can see why people may disagree, but the fact that other countries are represented on the table means that the U.S. should be represented as well, even if they are unofficial. I saw as one of your arguments was that no team is represented as the "U.S", however, that is false. The team that wins the U.S. half of the tournament goes into the finals represented as the United States as well as by their state name. For the first column of the page I feel the United States should also be represented as the team with the most championships. However, I agree that Taiwan should be included as well since people may argue that the states win the championships for the state while the foreign countries represent just that country. So if we can make for some way for the column on the first page to show both Taiwan and the U.S. having the most championships, or use an * or () to show that the U.S. has the unofficial most titles, that would be ideal. Moreover, I feel that firstly on the table that shows the tallies of championships, the U.S. should absolutely be represented with a dash (-) to show that they have the unofficial most and Taiwan still has the most, and second and lastly, that for the first column that some compromise that shows Taiwan as the official most and the U.S. as the the unofficial most should be present. I hope you take this into consideration so we can make a compromise that is best for the article. I'm not the first or even only person to have these views, so this should deeply be taken into consideration.

Best regards

- John Grizxel — Preceding unsigned comment added by ANTbook365 (talk • contribs) 22:57, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BRD, you need to establish consensus before reinserting your unilateral changes. There is no team called "United States". There is a reason why this tournament is split into TWO brackets, that means there will always be a team from the United States in final, which will be uneven to the other teams if you add them all up. It also does not make any sense to cite other unrelated Wikipedia pages per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Using IP sockpuppets isn't going to help you either. Kiwifist (talk) 10:04, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

LLWS (Follow up)

Just a follow up, i re edited the page. The table that tallies the championships should be kept the same, however, please change the top column on the front page accordingly to make it look better. I tried my best to make some kind of comprise but I can use some work. Thanks in advance lol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ANTbook365 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Change

I believe that in both the header which indicates the country with most titles, and in the championship tally section, that the United States should be added as a recognized team. The United States as an overall country in this tournament have won 35 titles. On the opening header, the country indicated with the most championships is Taiwan with 17 championships. However, this is just wrong since the U.S. holds claim to way more titles. On the current version of the page on the championship tally section, international countries are tallied against U.S. states, which doesn't make any logical sense. I feel that a US bar should be added at the top for the winners table, perhaps with the US name italicized and rank given as just a dash. Similar to how the EU is listed in tables that also include EU countries. The addition would look like this: | — || United States || 35 || 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1970, 1975, 1982, 1983, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1998, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2016, 2018 |-

Even though other arguments have been made that the tournament always has a U.S. based team in the finals, there are also other facts equally as relevant such as the fact that Japan which has less than 1,000 teams gets to compete automatically every single year while California that has over 22,000 teams has to fight other states every single year for an opportunity to go. Canada and Mexico also have automatic berths to the international competition. The number of U.S. participating teams compared to the amount of foreign teams does not even compare. Since the U.S. supplies majority of the teams and invented the tournament, its only fair that they always get a chance to be represented in the finals. On the ESPN coverage of the championship game this year in 2018, Hawaii (the American represented team in the finals) is represented by an American flag, thus showing that the United States is acknowledged as a team. The United States should be represented as a team in both the table and opening header.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ANTbook365 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please bring forth any references or sources that show the "United States" as a represented team? The current article does not support that. All the news media, references, and sources portray it as U.S. state vs international country — and that is what we follow. This includes the official LLWS website present and past. This also includes our very own article, and similar events like the Intermediate League World Series, Junior League World Series, Senior League World Series, and the Big League World Series. Kiwifist (talk) 00:23, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll explain this to you in the simplest way possible. For a team like Japan for example, Japan is a very small country compared to the United States. Thus, they have a lot less participating little league clubs compared to the U.S., and because of that, one team represents Japan at the start of the Little League World Series, while 8 teams from the United States start out in the tournament. In Japan, many teams from competing cities battle it out to become the sole team representing Japan. When these teams are playing each other they are all not known as team Japan. For example, it may be a little league team from Tokyo versing a team from some other Japanese city. The same goes for when multiple little league teams from one state in the U.S. play each other for a chance to represent their state. So since the representing little league team from Japan is the sole surviving team from Japan they are now known as Japan when they enter the Little League World Series. This coincides with the U.S. side of the tournament when the sole team from the U.S. wins the United States Championship game and advances to the final. Although, for example, when Hawaii just earlier today played in their championship game they weren't specifically called the "United States", they were still represented by a United States flag instead of a Hawaii flag in graphics on ESPN when the game was broadcast ed as shown here http://www.espn.com/llws/story/_/id/24485001/hawaii-defeats-south-korea-2018-little-league-world-series-championship-game . On this article if you check on the highlight video at the start of the article, at approximately 10 seconds into the video when Manu Lau Kong for Hawaii hits a home run, why does the United States flag graphic show up on the score box in the right hand corner? Shouldn't the Hawaiian flag show up instead? Likewise, at approximately, 1 minute and 24 seconds when Hawaii wins the game a graphic at the bottom of the screen shows up stating `Hawaii, 2018 Little League World Series Champions` with a United States flag graphic again. I would like to see a counter argument for that. Also, I do understand that the source is not 100% convenient, but at the moment its the only reliable and suitable one I could find considering its from ESPN themselves. To further explain why they weren't called the "United States" in this championship game it is pretty simple to comprehend, considering the fact that through the whole Little League World Series they were identified as Hawaii, and that there are 7 other teams from the United States that were in the tournament; It would make things a lot more confusing if in the last game Hawaii was suddenly now known as the United States. Japan for example, on the other hand entered the tournament as the only team from Japan so it would make perfect sense and would not be confusing at all if they were known as Japan throughout the whole tournament. Another analogy that can explain this are how each state also represents a region. Although for example, New York isn't called "Team Mid-Atlantic" throughout the tournament, they are still representing the Mid Atlantic region, just as even though Hawaii isn't specifically called the United States, enough evidence proves that are representing the United States; and a win by them in the finals is both a win for Hawaii individualy and a win for the United States as a country. This is why I believe that the United States should be represented on the tables in the passage, and on the heading. It just doesn't logically make sense that countries are being compared to U.S. states, instead of either two separate tables for countries and states, or just having the U.S. as a whole tallied on the top with a "-" dash as its rank instead of 1. ANTbook365 (talk) 02:59, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You've said that the chart as it is structured is unduly unfair to the country of the United States because it counts their wins separately. But you have to look closely at what each country is expected to face and when each country is expected to face it in order to draw up a balance sheet for fairness here. The World Series is setup in such a way so as to ensure that the final match-up is between the US and a foreign country. Imagine if the series were held in Japan and the rules regarding when fully formed country teams were required to play and against whom were reversed. Japan's teams, made up from their different prefectures, would be allowed to play amongst themselves in order to determine who would represent them right up till the end. But not so for the US, who, if the rules were reversed, would then be expected to show up in Japan as an already formed team ready to play - and that team would already be expected to play against other countries like the Dominican Republic, Venezuela and Taiwan. This would be a very precarious position for the US. Without their secured position at the end waiting for them as it is now, the loss of only one or two games against another foreign country like Taiwan or Venezuela and the US would be done for and on the next plane ride home. With their secured place at the end, Japan would then go on to play whichever other country had won their series and they'd go on to either win or lose the last game. Every year, other foreign countries face these odds while the US has a secured place at the end to face the "foreign" leader. Given such an advantage, modesty seems to suggest that only the individual states get to make claims to winning a title, and not the US itself, because the "USA team" as it exists at the very end didn't have to make all the necessary sacrifices that the other countries had to make. It had a free pass all the way through the end of the Series' penultimate game. spintendo 08:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Spintendo I do see your point and I’m happy with the fact that you understand that United States is a team. I understand your concern for how fair it is but look at it like this, Let's take everything you state at face value. Then take into account the fact that there are about 2,200,000 Little League players in the USA. In the rest of the world there are less than 130,000 players. California, I am guessing the largest state playing with around 25,000 teams. This would only make sense for more U.S. teams to be in the tournament and would make sense why they go to the finals every year. This is why I also propose that when the United States is put in the table, their rank is identified with a dash (-) instead of rank 1, just to still identify them as team and country.ANTbook365 (talk) 14:22, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That still ignores the fact that it was a U.S.-only tournament for decades, and the years where international teams were banned. So it simply does not make sense to add up the United States. No other sources do either, including the LLWS itself. Kiwifist (talk) 19:07, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kiwifist So here is a great example to counter that. In the Olympics for example when certain countries don’t compete in an event or in the Olympics but then compete the next year, do all other former achievements from other countries just get erased from the the record book? The point of the table is to tally all of the championships, it isn’t a competition between countries which it seems you are trying to make it into. Just because international countries weren’t in some of the older tournaments does not erase the fact that they were played and won. It’s like for example, if in a major sports league like the NBA, if an expansion team is added to the league, do all former achievements and championships by other teams get erased? While it might not be fair to other countries and might be biased to the United States, does not matter. The fact of the matter is are that those championships happened and were awarded to the United States. This is not a competition like you are making it seem to be. Also, you keep bringing up the fact that the LLWS website does not state these things. However, the only link you are showing is a chart that shows each team that won the title each year, and we already went over that each state in the final keeps its state name so it’s not confusing to the viewers. This does not mean that they aren’t representing the U.S. in the finals. Please re read the argument if you don’t understand. The other user who commented on this even agrees that the US is a team, they are just stuck on if the tournament is fair or not. So we are past the problem on if they are recognized a team or not,if you still don’t understand or agree re read the conversation, thank you. ANTbook365 (talk) 20:57, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lets say that's true and I completely agree with you. However, please see WP:No original research. Information must be based on WP:Verifiability (see also WP:Verifiability, not truth). The U.S. flag is still Hawaii's flag, and the ESPN source still calls the team "Hawaii", and interpreting something that the source does not explicitly say is WP:OR. Also the fact that it's just one source, you have to consider WP:Due and undue weight. And the Olympics has always been referred to by their national teams, which multiple countries has always participated. The two are not comparable at all. Kiwifist (talk) 01:49, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kiwifist: The problem with how the LLWS website presents the winners is that in the cases of Taiwan, not every instance is shown only as "Taiwan"; there is Taipei-Chinese Taipei, Tainan-Chinese Taipei, Kao Ksiung-Chinese Taipei, and others. If the article is sticking to a strict "state / province / district of origin" accounting of the winners, shouldn't that also be reflected under Taiwan as it is for US states? spintendo 00:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Spintendo: Thank you for clarifying that. I think we are obviously past the debate on if the U.S. is recognized as a team or not. So I feel the real problem we still have while debating is determining if since the tournament is a little biased towardsthe United States, should their championships still be recognized. I can defend this point but before I do, I was wondering if you have any specific things to point out about any debate issues? If you now agree with my points and proposal then that’s wonderful, but if not what concerns do you still have if any?ANTbook365 (talk) 01:26, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was just saying if you counted Taiwanese districts the same way as states, you'd begin to see a table that looks quite different, with Taipei winning 20 and not 59 as the table states. But I dont see anything wrong with creating a third table that shows championships by country only. When you look at a page like this one which contains no less than 12 separate tables, you get the feeling that no one is arguing for an economy of tables. So one more should be fine, as long as editors here agree. Regards, spintendo 14:04, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Spintendo: , okay thank you, but just to clarify you do agree with the United States being on the country only table correct? And on top of that, what are your opinions on how the United States should be recognized on the table? Should they be represented as rank 1, or above that ranked by a dash (-). And still on that topic, in the main header table in the most titles slot, should Taiwan or the United States be put there? Thank you again. ANTbook365 (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Spintendo never said the "US" was considered a team, that's why he put the name in quotes. Quit taking things out of context and follow what the sources say. Editwarring with IP sockpuppets is not helping your case. Kiwifist (talk) 18:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kiwifist: Please show some proof as to where i am using sock puppets. I told you the 68 IP was me and was an accident as I hadn't realized that I wasn't logged in. Please go out and make a case and accuse me for using sock puppets again just so you can be proven wrong again. I'd love to see the proof.

Just popped by this article and the table of past winners is a bit strange. Those state flags are ridiculous and should not be there at all. I was looking at most result sources and the Little League page itself, and they are not used. Using them here, just because we can, is not proper. If you look at the Little League's own list of champions, this list is done correctly as far as wording... city/country for International and city/state for USA. But they don't use flag icons for any countries, let alone ridiculous state flags. For all I know they do this for a reason to promote the kids and not the locations, but because they don't use them, we shouldn't use them here. I would suggest we dump all the icons in the chart and just do it like Little League does it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Fyunck(click): i would agree however, I feel you would be against too many people to make this decision a reality. But I have a question for you. After reading everything in this discussion, and looking through some research if you need to, would you agree that it isn't proper to tally states against countries and at the least the United States should be represented on the table? The main question of this proposed change is in your opinion do you agree that the United States should be represented as team considering everything said above? ANTbook365 (talk) 18:20, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Two things. I'm not so sure about those flag icons failing consensus. You have to be able to source their use and if you can't it's a big problem at wikipedia. A BIG problem. As for your query, I would answer it in two parts. 1) I would never give totals of countries vs states. That is inconceivable to paraphrase the Princess Bride. I have no idea who came up with that mess. 2) As for the US totals, that's tougher because of all the format changes. Even in the early years Mexico was part of the USA south bracket. I would have all the country totals (including the USA) in a table from 1976 forward since that's when international play as we know it today really started. You certainly wouldn't have USA totals from when it was USA vs USA. Maybe you could argue to start it in 1968 but I think a chart from 1976 would be best. I watch the event every year, and I played little league as a kid decades ago, but that's the extent of my experience. Good luck to all in solving this. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:06, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, hopefully more people can come and express their opinion so it can be solved. But again thanks for the feed back. ANTbook365 (talk) 05:05, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gavin Weir

Can someone please add noteworthy events about Gavin Weir? He has been phenomenal in the Little League World Series. Mastergerwe97 (talk) 00:40, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cody BELLINGER left out?

Just curious why Cody Bellenger isn’t listed. They have shown him playing in the LLWS. Thx 2603:8000:8400:9897:1DD6:7525:CF19:7EBD (talk) 20:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why are international & us brackets separated? This seems to favor that a U.S. team will always play in the championship

Not complaining on how it is, just curious of the history that set it up this way 207.231.25.47 (talk) 00:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Little League altering History.

When it comes to History no one is allowed to deviate from the truth. Here is the truth. For the year 1975 there was no Little League World Champion, period! Why? That year Little League Baseball banned ALL foreign teams(ie. The World) from competing at Williamsport. Only U.S. teams played that year so the winner(New Jersey) was the Little League U.S. Champion, not the Little League World Champion! The truth is in 1975 there was no Little League World Series played! If you see the year 1975 in combination with Little League World Series you know it is a Lie! No one, including Little League Baseball, has the power to alter History! 24.113.224.142 (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Drew Storen needs added to pro players list 2601:805:8500:2340:D13E:8ADF:8F2F:5D19 (talk) 19:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are opening matchups in 20-team format randomized?

If I'm understanding the new double-elimination format with 10 US and 10 international teams correctly, the 4 US and 4 international teams that play on the first day appear to be at a competitive disadvantage, because they have to win one more game to advance to the championship.

Based on this article [8], I tentatively conclude that this isn't a seeding issue (e.g., with lower-seeded teams having to play a play-in game, like in the NCAA basketball tournament), but is purely random. Can anyone here confirm that? I don't think this issue is mentioned in any of the LLWS WP articles, or any of the LLWS webpages I could find.Jbening (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 16:36, 20 August 2024 edit Jbening (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users 3,914 edits →Are opening matchups in 20-team format randomized?: new section Tag: New topic ← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 16:39, 20 August 2024 edit undo Jbening (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users 3,914 edits →Are opening matchups in 20-team format randomized?
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	If I'm understanding the new double-elimination format with 10 US and 10 international teams correctly, the 4 US and 4 international teams that play on the first day appear to be at a competitive disadvantage, because they have to win one more game to advance to the championship.		If I'm understanding the new double-elimination format with 10 US and 10 international teams correctly, the 4 US and 4 international teams that play on the first day appear to be at a competitive disadvantage, because they have to win one more game to advance to the championship.

	Based on this article [https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2022/llbws/news/opening-matchups-set-for-the-75th-anniversary-of-the-little-league-baseball-world-series/], I tentatively conclude that this isn't a seeding issue (e.g., with lower-seeded teams having to play a play-in game, like in the NCAA basketball tournament), but is purely random. Can anyone here confirm that? I don't think this issue is mentioned in any of the LLWS WP articles.[[User:Jbening\|Jbening]] ([[User talk:Jbening\|talk]]) 16:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)		Based on this article [https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2022/llbws/news/opening-matchups-set-for-the-75th-anniversary-of-the-little-league-baseball-world-series/], I tentatively conclude that this isn't a seeding issue (e.g., with lower-seeded teams having to play a play-in game, like in the NCAA basketball tournament), but is purely random. Can anyone here confirm that? I don't think this issue is mentioned in any of the LLWS WP articles, or any of the LLWS webpages I could find.[[User:Jbening\|Jbening]] ([[User talk:Jbening\|talk]]) 16:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)