Talk:Lists of unusual deaths

Holding tank

• There is a holding tank for content, removed from the article due to poor sourcing, which may have been included in the article for a considerable time: Talk:List of unusual deaths/Sourcing issues. Following talk page discussion, and in line with WP:STALEDRAFT, it has been agreed that any content in this holding area not sourced within 6 months from addition should be removed.

Informal RfC

Pinging those who have been active lately; apologies if I missed anyone: Abductive, Aoidh, Bdblakley29, Bkatcher, Brandmeister, BrayLockBoy, Gildir, Martinevans123, Toadheart, Chaliceborn777, RBainbridge2000, Rori1911, TeeVill

Happy to open a formal discussion if needed, but if we can come to consensus on our own, might as well! I've got three points to bring up that I think (loosely) cover the bases for the moment:

• This page is massive.
• It's not getting any smaller.
• Should we do something about it? If so, what?

I think we can all agree on the first point, but if you'd like statistics, the List of Unusual Deaths is (at the time of this writing) sitting at 522,035 bytes, making it one of the top 100 Wikipedia pages by data size - it was 57th, last I checked. It's big.

I'd hope we can all agree on the second as well - people die, and the more time passes, the greater the odds of unusual deaths. In addition to that, the digitization of historical records, especially newspapers, makes it much easier to find even more unusual deaths for the list. I personally have been poking through Chronicling America and adding deaths as I find them, and I've still got more noted down that I just haven't formatted yet (a golf club victim, a guy who accidentally ate a sandwich soaked in battery acid, a freak decapitation, guy who got run over by his own hay rake, etc.).

So given those, we're left with the actual questions in point 3 - should we do something about the size and unchecked growth of this page, and if so, what? My opinion is that yes, we should do something about it; it's already huge to the point where I sometimes experience lag if I try to edit the entire thing instead of just a section. As for what specifically to do about it, I have a few thoughts that I'd like input on.

1. We go through with a weed-whacker and clear out anything unverified. This gets trickier the further back in time we go, but gotta start somewhere, right?
2. We go through with a bigger weed-whacker and clear out things with questionable sources. I'm talking infotainment listicles with titles like "You Won't Believe These 13 Weird Ways To Die (#7 Will Shock You!)".
3. We go from weed-whacker to machete and chop the article into multiple articles. By date/category would likely be the easiest way to do this - List of unusual deaths in Antiquity, List of unusual deaths in the 21st century, List of unusual animal deaths, etc.
4. We graduate to a full-on landscaping company and decide if certain unusual deaths aren't actually that weird. For example, we have several people currently on the list who drowned, but perhaps "seizure and drowned" or "vertigo and drowned" or "fainted and drowned" could be removed in favor of keeping "drowned self due to ex-wife's ghost" or "drowned in poop" or "drowned by a swan."
5. We let our landscaping company get picky about its clients and adjust the qualifications for inclusion. I previously suggested 1) a reliable source must describe the death as "unusual" or some synonym thereof; 2) a contemporary source (can be the same as #1) must do the same; and 3) a modern reader could reasonably agree the same with said source/s.

Don't know why I let this turn into an entire lawn care metaphor, but sure, why not.

Of these, I like #1, #4, and #5 the best. There's no reason not to get started with clearing out recent deaths that fail verification (honestly that doesn't even really need discussion). #4 is a little sketchier, as it's a judgement call; I thought deaths removed this way could be placed in the holding tank for review and reinstatement by any editor who disagrees, after which per WP:BRD they could be discussed here. #5 feels like a good idea, but then again of course it does, I came up with it. Adding the caveat that a contemporary source should call it unusual (or otherwise point out that it was exceptional, since the further back you go the more you see things like "terrible death" instead and if the death fits the other criteria then "terrible" is within the spirit of the page) increases the sourcing, which is rarely a bad thing, and the "modern reader" provision - while open to debate and interpretation - may help keep to a minimum more mundane deaths that happen to be called "unusual".

I'm not sold on #2; some of the sources that would fall under that umbrella include otherwise-reliable sources like the BBC. #3 seems like it could be a good idea, but I'll readily admit that I haven't done that before and I'm a bit nervous about it. I'd want a good solid consensus before getting that going.

I'd love to hear what other people have to say! NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:44, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I've been watching this article grow for quite some time with questionable entries based on a single reference, usually a local newspaper using an eye-catching headline, with the body of the text not mentioning any unusual/strange aspect. I think enforcement of the noted as being unusual by multiple sources criteria mentioned in the lede would cut down a lot of the bloat. - Aoidh (talk) 22:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, a lot of these are referenced by small newspapers or the like, describing farm accidents or car wrecks as 'strange.' Bkatcher (talk) 01:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Wholly agree with that description. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:27, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd personally go with 1, if there's nothing that can verify it happened (outside of antiquity cause we don't have a time machine), then it shouldn't really be on here in the first place TeeVill (talk) 23:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

My favorite option is #3. This has previously been done with List of last words and List of fictional astronauts, among others. I took part in the process of chopping up List of fictional astronauts and made some mistakes in the process, but someone else came along and corrected them, and the resulting articles have been going strong for several years now. This option also has the fun factor of choosing a new lead image for each article rather than just being stuck with Aeschylus' death. (I would also support removing all the Biblical figures other than Eleazar Avaran, although even that would be unnecessary if List of unusual deaths in antiquity were a separate page.) Gildir (talk) 08:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

No real objections to #3, as long as the criteria for inclusion were clear and largely consistent. Re #5: ".. adjust the qualifications for inclusion.." - the current instructions at the top of this page say ".. the clear policy based consensus is to keep this list only to those deaths for whom there are reliable sources (as noted by one person, these need to be high quality sources, not tabloid journals who regularly fling around these words for fun) that the death is in someway exceptional." Maybe there is a case for explicitly requiring at least two RS sources for every entry (the current instructions are slightly ambiguous)? I think this would see a large number of entries disappear. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I personally think we should delete all the ones that don't explicitly say unusual and that have unreliable sources. I also think we should keep Eleazar Avaran but Sisera since both have other historical documents backing them. Bdblakley29 (talk) 22:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Bdblakley, you've now just added: James A. Moon, Andrew Westlake, Thad Jackson, James Gough or Goff, Morris Quinn and James Ferrera, Charles Salow, and 12+ cows, which all seem to be sourced to very brief reports in 19th-centruy regional newspapers. Are you prepared to argue for retention of all of these? Might it be a good idea to agree a pause on any additions while this discussion continues? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:37, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

And now Gwynette Erica Morgan? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I am fully willing to argue why these should be kept and I don't think It would be a good idea. Bdblakley29 (talk) 23:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

This edit is a very good example of why the "more than one reliable source" criteria that has been part of the article since 2012 should be the standard and be enforced in the article itself. Otherwise this article will continue to expand with questionable entries sourced to local papers who use eye-catching headlines to describe deaths. A local community may consider many things unusual for their community that the wider world would not, and the easiest way to check against that is to enforce the requirement that there be at least two separate reliable sources for an entry. Simply enforcing the criteria that has already been in the prose of the article for the last 12 years would cut down on the size of the article tremendously and would help ensure that the entries listed are in fact actually considered unusual. - Aoidh (talk) 03:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I would like to formally propose a pause in the addition of new entries while this discussion is in progress. What do other editors think? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me. Gildir (talk) 07:03, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if new entries need to be paused completely, but at minimum they need to meet the article's current criteria of multiple reliable sources absent a consensus that says this should not be the standard for inclusion. - Aoidh (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Would you agree that the existing wording, ".. deaths for whom there are reliable sources", is ambiguous? That it, it doesn't explicitly state that each separate entry needs at least two reliable sources? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The banner at the top of the talk page referencing the 2013 RfC is ambiguous to the question of whether one or multiple sources is needed. However, the prose of the article is not. The 2013 version of the article (which also mentioned the multiple sources criteria) was ~80k bytes (122 entries) and is now ~535k bytes (523 entries). It is expected that the article would grow in that time period, however the page has grown by ~200k in the last year alone, mostly due to questionable entries sourced to a single local source that does not meet the article's own criteria (the lede states the list is for deaths noted as being unusual by multiple sources). - Aoidh (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the lede is unambiguous. Although in practice "multiple" is taken to mean "at least two". I think all of those recently added, with a single source, usually to a regional newspaper, should be removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I have no issues with this; I would just add that potential new entries should probably be placed in the Holding Tank instead of just page history. I'm also comfortable with Aoidh's suggestion that new entries be permitted so long as they have at least two reliable sources. NekoKatsun (nyaa) NekoKatsun (nyaa) 14:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that all proposed new entries first go in the holding tank? Or just those that do not have at least two RS sources? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh beg pardon, I meant that if new additions are paused altogether, putting them in the Holding Tank instead of just undoing them seemed like a good idea - especially for contributors that aren't actively following this discussion. It'd feel pretty terrible to submit an entry and have it removed because of a discussion you didn't realize was happening.

If not paused altogether, I would support Holding Tank-ing entries with just one source, and keeping those with 2+. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 14:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of, I should make sure my recent additions have 2+ sources each, looks like I'm OK for the Dunns and McDermott, but need more for Wynekoop, Hilda, and McCullar...

i agree with number 3. i think we should divide each time period into its own page. i think it makes the bite count a bit more smaller and less laggy. Chaliceborn777 (talk) 23:19, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• Given that there's been no suggestion or consensus that the inclusion criteria mentioned at the beginning of the article should be changed, in the next few days I plan to start going through and removing entries sourced to a single reference if I can't find a secondary source for them, which includes the recently added entries that do not meet this criteria. @Chaliceborn777 and Bdblakley29: You have both been adding a lot of entries in the past few days that do not meet the inclusion criteria of more than one source and/or use highly questionable sources such as WordPress blogs. This HistoryCollection from this addition is a WP:QUESTIONABLE source with no claims of editorial oversight or review for accuracy, for example. I would ask that if you would like these additions to remain in the article, to go through and add sources, and to ensure that new entries meet the criteria before adding them, to avoid their removal. - Aoidh (talk) 15:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Looking at Long pages it now appears at No.65 with ‎[509,540 bytes]. Bear in mind that WP:Article size says "> 15,000 words Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed." Martinevans123 (talk) 12:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the first thing to do is split off deaths of people who are independently notable. Abductive (reasoning) 23:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I would still prefer a split by time period. Just my two cents. Gildir (talk) 01:17, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• I would very much like to see WP:CHALLENGE applied to this list. For example, hunters getting shot when their dog steps on the trigger is very common, as evidenced by this Washington Post article, In the past five years, at least six Americans have been shot by dogs. Yet somehow an item about that is disgracing the page right now. Abductive (reasoning) 23:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

  Surprised that the right to keep and bear arms doesn't also also apply to dogs (in some states)... Martinevans123 (talk) 09:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well, they're dogs, not bears... NekoKatsun (nyaa) 18:05, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

  I always keep an SKS-style rifle handy for the golf course... Martinevans123 (talk) 18:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Catherine Steyer - Jan. 1937

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-morning-call/101133365/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-gazette/101032333/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/daily-news/101135896/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-herald-sun/101133293/

This is a death I pretty randomly stumbled upon and seems to fit this list to a T, as it looks to me like a very unusual incident that is unique/probably hasn't occurred in that exact manner anywhere else. However, I'm not a reliable source, and since the sources don't explicitly describe it as "unusual", I wanted to check with people before adding this. The best I got is the Gazette or the NY Daily News' describing it as a "bizarre/baffling mystery" (with the Herald-Sun mentioning a "bizarre" trap).

Is this good enough, or should I just forget about it? LaughingManiac (talk) 14:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

i mean the word 'bizarre' could/can count. Chaliceborn777 (talk) 23:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

All right, thanks for the input. Given the discussion above, I'll wait a few days to see if anyone disagrees, then BEBOLD and add this. LaughingManiac (talk) 00:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, I gave it a month, and got no other responses. Thus, I've added it, as I stated I would. If anyone has issues with the phrasing, by all means, feel free to correct (or suggest). I tried to be somewhat detailed to emphasize the unusualness of the death, while not dwelling unduly on the minutiae - that said, I understand if someone finds it a little too wordy, or awkwardly presented. LaughingManiac (talk) 19:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Sophie (musician)

Yes, there are two sources. Yes, both sources use the words "freak accident". But deaths by accidental fall from a roof must be quite common? I suspect that the death has been reported more since she was famous. Does her fame make her death any more unusual than that of, say, a local builder? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC) p.s. Rori1911, I'm sure all your edits, since you joined on 5 July, have been made in good faith, but are you aware of Wikipedia:Single-purpose account? Thanks.

While I do agree that said death isn't all that unusual, it seems like, unless someone makes a case for the sources used being unreliable, our hands are tied on this one. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 03:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

A death from a fall is extremely common, 46,653 Americans died in 2022 from some type of fall. As LiUNA points outhere, Journalists may use this term to create an attention-grabbing headline or make the story seem more “newsworthy” and judging by a few of the entries I've seen, journalists indeed seem likely to be overly generous with describing something as a "freak accident" when the circumstances are rather more commonplace than they are suggesting. Looking past the attention grabbing description and looking at the facts themselves, this does not appear to be an unusual death in any way, our hands are not tied just because an anonymous contributor and a campus paper's intern used attention-grabbing verbiage. - Aoidh (talk) 03:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I've had it drilled in my head time and time again that Wikipedia goes by what sources say, even if editors believe otherwise. Verifiability, not truth and all that. Wouldn't removing this entry because we don't consider it unusual stray into WP:OR? ZionniThePeruser (talk) 05:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It scarcely matters because the sources call the death a freak accident anyway, but I think SOPHIE's death was sufficiently unusual because she was a famous (and Wikipedia-notable) person who was taking photographs of the Moon when she fell. Just my two cents. Gildir (talk) 06:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Someone's fame makes their death, however it happens, "more unusual"? Not just "more notable"?? I suspect lots of people take photographs of the moon. Lots of people climb onto roofs with no safety gear. Lots of people fall off. But most of them aren't famous Scottish music producers, songwriters, and DJs. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@ZionniThePeruser: No, applying Wikipedia policy (WP:ONUS) does not contradict what is written in WP:VNT, particularly the second paragraph of that essay. This verifiability is sourced to two questionable opinion pieces that use this phrase in passing without making an attempt to explain what makes it a freak accident, and sources that have more established reliability do not describe it as such. Omitting such an entry has nothing to do with WP:OR. - Aoidh (talk) 00:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Not great sources, are they. The Guardian, used as the source in her article, doesn't say her death was unusual, just that it was a "sudden accident." Martinevans123 (talk) 06:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Ooo, tricky. On the one hand, as Zionni points out, the sources call it a freak accident (historically a qualifier for inclusion), and WP:VNT. On the other, the Daily Mail isn't even calling it weird, and they're one of the most likely to sensationalize, so if they're not calling it unusual... It was unexpected and it was unlikely (sounds like she was up on a roof terrace, so I assume people were intended to be on that roof), but I don't know if I personally would call it unusual. Granted my personal opinion is worth about as much as a single baked bean, but still.

I could be persuaded either way. I do think "freak accident" is a valid qualifier, looking over the other deaths that have used that phrase; I also think this particular "freak accident" isn't really that freaky on the balance of things, and could be trimmed as editorial oversight. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 16:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It is tricky. The words "freak accident" might carry more weight in The Daily Telegraph or in The BMJ, than in those two existing sources. They really don't look very 'reliable', do they. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• No Rod Hull?, then no Sophie. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well, he wasn't photographing the moon, he was just "adjusting the television aerial on the roof of his bungalow at half-time during an Inter Milan vs. Manchester United match" (... which is not at all unusual). Martinevans123 (talk) 18:22, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  Keep in mind, Martin, that SOPHIE was transgender, so please use her appropriate pronouns she/her. Using her dead pronouns seems offensive. Rori1911 (talk) 16:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  Errm, I was referring to Rod. I've used she/her for Sophie throughout elsewhere here? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strange vs unexplained

There seems to have been a recent increase in the addition of deaths, supported by reports in local newspapers for the 1920s and 1930s, that were described there as "strange" because they were essentially unexplained. The lack of explanation may have been because the formal procedures of post mortem examination and/or coroner's court proceedings were not yet complete, or because the scientific methods for investigating these deaths thoroughly were not yet available. In either case, I do not think that the description of "unusual", or similar, in those newspapers, is a valid reason for inclusion in the article. What do other editors think? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:42, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, largely for reasons I've touched on above. A local reporter using an eye-catching headline or describing something as strange or unusual usually only fits the description of "unusual...for their community at that time" rather than actually unusual from a global perspective. If we're going to be reliant on the assessment of local reporters like this, I think at minimum an entry that includes a local newspaper as a source also should include a non-local source as well, to show that it's actually unusual and not just unusual for that specific area at that specific time. - Aoidh (talk) 15:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds sensible. An associated issue is that some of these reports are only a few words. Perhaps just two or three short sentences, the briefest possible account. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Cleopatra

The asp thing started with Shakespeare. It was a poisoned hair pin Whoami313 (talk) 17:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

At least she wasn't killed by having poison poured into her ear while asleep? But, it does happen! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Mysterious = Strange or Unusual

I have seen this multiple times on here, but I see that people disregard the word "mysterious" as unusual. However, I found this Collins' dictionary site that states: "Someone or something that is mysterious is strange and is not known about or understood." Also, "strange" is listed as a synonym.

I don't know if this will, in fact, fully settle this debate.

Link: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/mysterious#:~:text=Someone%20or%20something%20that%20is,curious%20More%20Synonyms%20of%20mysterious Rori1911 (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't "mysterious" imply that some or all of the details are unknown, i.e. a mystery? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

By that logic, wouldn't all those listed in List of unsolved deaths and/or List of people who disappeared mysteriously at sea be eligible for inclusion here? ZionniThePeruser (talk) 19:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

More "first" deaths

Please note that User:Bdblakley29 has recently added four more entries for "first" deaths to the list (Thorvald Eiriksson, 1006; two Dutch sailors, 9 July 1594; unknown man, 15 August 1640; John Gregory Tierney and Harold Connelly, 20 December 1922). I still fail to see how we can include "first" deaths that sources do not explicitly call "strange" or "unusual" without making the list far longer than it now is, nor what other criteria we could use to keep the number of "first" deaths to a reasonable limit. (We ought to consider removing Thomas Selfridge, 17 September 1908, and possibly even the Soyuz 11 crew, for the same reason, whereas some other "first" deaths, such as Bridget Driscoll, are properly sourced as being unusual as well as first-time events.) Gildir (talk) 01:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, if you think we should delete the aforementioned entries then do it. Bdblakley29 (talk) 01:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The currently agreed criterion makes no mention of "first". We'd need another RfC to agree that. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I will begin deleting entries for "first" deaths with no sources calling them "unusual" or a synonym and moving "first" deaths with only one source calling them "unusual" to the holding tank. Gildir (talk) 13:15, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

"455 quotations"

Regarding this recent edit: my understanding is that the quotations in the references have been deliberately added to allow an easy means of verification that the sources describe the death as "unusual" &etc. I'm not sure there are other methods of providing this is a convenient way. Any suggestions? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

What is the word count limit for a quote in a reference? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I have two unusual deaths to be considered for addition to this list.

first and foremost is a suicide by volcano from the 1983 catastrophic and explosive eruption of mt. St. Helens in WA state. Owner of the Mt.St.Helens lodge Mr. Harry R. Truman is a local folk hero for refusing to leave after several official evacuations of the entire region surrounding the volcano. Mr. Truman, the entire USA knew for weeks prior that an eruption was imminent. Truman's death attributed to "pyroclastic flow" alone is worthy of this list. The facts that this was a suicide by volcano as well as that he was a respected war veteran and resort owner, but also that Truman took with him 16 pet cats that he refused to evacuate. All died as a result when the volcano erupted and sent a tsunami of scolding hot earth, lava, and ash completely consuming his lodge and burying it and the adjacent Spirit Lake in a reported 150ft deep mass of debris. The reported landslide was given the record for largest landslide in recorded history. Most certainly this is a more unusual and spectacular demise then dozens already on this list. Not to mention world renown.

My second one is an obvious one that I'm absolutely stunned isnt on this list. You'll have to do the fact finding for Bruce Lee. His death is still the subject of conspiracy theories and superstitious folklore to this day. Not too mention it is still mostly a mystery. 2601:600:CB00:2BD0:40D1:A49B:5EC9:BEE3 (talk) 06:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)