Talk:Gothic rock

Redirect

ģFirstly, I think the redirect should have been to goth music, rather than gothic rock, since gothic rock is a subset of goth music. -- Birchtree

OK. When I merge, I tend to remove the smallest article, rather than making complicated decisions about which title is better. Do as ye will. Martin

Essentially though, such an entry ends up as nothing more than an opinion poll as to which bands are considered to be gothic rock. My vote is for certain parts of this page to be subsumed into the Goth entry (since the movement and the music are extremely difficult to seperate), and both goth music and gothic rock to be set as a redirect to Goth. -- Birchtree

Interestingly, I take the opposite approach: Large chunks of the Goth article should be moved to Gothic music or Gothic fashion, as appropriate.

The music and the fashion and the philosophy are easy to seperate. The fashion aspects of Goth are what you wear. The music aspects of Goth are what you listen to. The philosophical aspects of Goth are what you think. Clearly there are strong links between these aspects, but equally they can be profitably examined individually as well. Martin

Well, my point is that if you are to say anything remotely meaningful about the rise of goth, you have to talk about its development as a music scene. The philosophy aspect is something I wouldn't want to touch with a barge-pole because then you really do get into a completely subjective debate about 'what it's all about'. The main thrust of the goth article was to avoid that pitfall and still be informative. -- Birchtree

Well, one can take a holistic view of goth, or a reductionist view of goth. But they don't have to be mutually exclusive: we can have a holistic overview at goth, with more specific articles talking about goth from the perspective of fashion, music, and philosophy/lifestyle/... Martin

Taken from the article:

the solos are more moody & intellectual than aggressive.

Can someone explain this statement? How can a solo be "intellectual"? FWIW, my observation on goth solos are they're generally simple melodies, normally similes of the chorus and less focused on "flashy" playing than hard rock solos. -- Jim Regan 01:32 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Doings Things Differently

Silly point: since when were Jane's Addiction goth? I know you Do Things Differently in the United States, but not that much! -- Aleph

They aren't, but I think whoever wrote that thought they had much in common. Feel free to remove them if you want. —Morven 18:02, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Related Genres

I see that industrial is not linked as a related genre at the bottom of the page, yet it is mentioned just as much as punk in the article, and it is linked from the info box. I realize that to many, the separation of goth and industrial is a sacred one, but can anyone genuinely give a good reason why industrial music should not be listed in the related genres section at the bottom? There are probably fewer than ten "goth nights" at clubs around the world that do not play any industrial music. Again, I'm not saying industrial and goth are the same, or that industrial is better, but I think that even if they are evolutionarily different, they are culturally related today. If nobody objects to this within a few days, I'll put it back onto the list.

• Go for it; I've always considered the two a bit related (although usually clearly distinct). I figured if someone felt like removing it, they probably had a more meaningful opinion than I on the subject. However, I'd think the link would belong... Folkor 06:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

More info just moved in

I just transfered a bunch of information concerning gothic music from the Goth page to this one, since it is more appropriate here. I am kinda burned out from editing the Goth page, so the info here may still look a bit choppy or half assed. Anyone should feel free to clean it up. If not, I may do it slowly over the next few days or weeks. Grice 11:41, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

EBM & more

Front 242 is EBM. --vininim 20:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

that's right...and EBM was a mix between electro punk (DAF, Krupps) and industrial (Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire). EBM isn't goth.

90's Goth

I'm an ex-goth scenester who was pretty involved in the scene in the 90's, and I saw that there's a lot missing about 90's goth in the article, such as mentions of bands like Switchblade Symphony, Sunshine Blind, Bella Morte, the Cruxshadows, Rosetta Stone, etc. These bands were sort of a bridge between the Sisters of Mercy and the modern EBM that everyone's listening to now - electronic, yet still gothy.

I agree, though I always thought of Switchblade Symphony as more Darkwave, but that's splitting hairs, considering the impact they had, esp. on the San Francisco scene. Infact, the distinction between the 80's Goth tradition and Darkwave get blurry with the others as well, though the Crüxshadows are more like the Clan of Xymox I suppose. Any staple compilations such as The Goth Box or The Black Bible include these bands. Anyway, nevermind the ramblings of a plainclothes goth... Khirad 09:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I also agree with this. It seemed like there was a bit of a gap in the information from 1995 to the present. The resurgence of deathrock and the rise of dark cabaret, etc. are fairly recent movements, after all. There are a number of bands from this period worth mentioning. Darkwave, dark alternative, and gothic industrial are all terms I heard a lot cira 1997. AR 17:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Goth and Classical influences

I was reading this article, and it seems to be missing on information about the other kind of Goth music which doesn't involve heavy guitars, drums, electronics and whatnot, but instead use more 'classical' influences - especially piano and string instruments, and are not 'rock' in the common sense of the term. How does this fit into the genre (I'm not-really-goth except in what I believe), and does the style have a name? I can't name any bands in particular at the moment, so any edits would be great. --elynnia

Do you mean stuff like Lycia, Unto Ashes, Ataraxia, Faith & The Muse, etc.? Oh, and above all, the divine Black Tape for a Blue Girl of Sam Rosenthal! Some of them use electronic synthesizers, but they are ambient and such. I don't know what to call Ataraxia and Faith & the Muse, not exactly Medieval Rock, "folk goth" perhaps? The rest are Ethereal, in my opinion. By the way, I was meaning to write an Ethereal article, anyone want to help? I think bands with classical influences are too many to name though. "This Corrosion" could qualify, or the operatic Die Form. Khirad 09:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I forgot 'Love is Colder Than Death', which have lately taken the reins from Dead Can Dance, but were very electro-orchestral. Khirad 09:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

In Germany, we called it Dark Wave, because the term 'gothic' means mostly 'gothic rock'.

There are many dark styles from the late New Wave era... Not every kind of music is 'Goth music'.

Okay folks, I just updated a ton of information here. The page had become horribly disorganized with random comment on the early scene and influences. I created three new subcategories to help organized the information under the first generation of goth (emergences of the UK, American/Candadian, and continental European/Australian scenes), as well as updating some important information. Some people seem to want to throw in every little fact instead of the overarching ones, and also don't want to take the time to use good grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Also, value judgments or abstract conclusions are not really encyclopediac material; that is fodder for web blogs. Let's keep the intent of the Wikipedia here by keeping this page comprehensive but concise, informational but precise, insightful but objective/authoritative. Mick Mercer is a good reference point for understanding the evolution of gothic music. Please avoid adding tangential bands that may have existed for a year or two, but contributed no real impact to the development of the genre. (And yes, Faith and the Muse are Gothic Rock: subcategory, Darkwave...have talked to the band myself).---A soon to be registered editor, for now "EntropyTea". NOVEMBER 14 2005

Darkwave isn't a subcategory. Darkwave is a generic term and this term comprises styles like goth rock, neofolk, ethereal and other dark genres from the 80's New wave-era...

Messing with the band list.

Somone is messing with the list of goth rock bands. I found Rammestein, HIM, All About Eve, 69 Eyes, etc

What's wrong with All About Eve being in there?? Are you familiar with their first releases? It's like a mixture of Skeletal Family, Sisters, and Cocteau Twins. Completely and totally Gothic Rock material. --FACT50 20:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted the band list to what I deemed as the most recently cleanest (Sept 17). If the last band listing seemed acceptable to anyone in terms of band names, might I suggest making a new page dedicated as a list? The last band listing had bands of all kinds listed under the moniker of “gothic” (add to that, it was sloppy in organization with band named repeated more than once, and with little sense of alphebetization…also, it was long). I’d disagree with some of the band names that were there (Duran Duran? GWAR?), but I guess there are certain bands that are debatable, after all (especially, as pointed out within this very article, that there is particular debate whether some third-generation bands are gothic or not). Overall, since I could see someone coming back to add debatably “non-goth” bands into the list, it might be a good idea to separate the bands by the “generation-gap” that is made out by the article in such a new page, with a summary to describe what goes in each section. Just an idea. Shadowolf 06:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Genres the bands fit into any why some shouldn't be on the list

I request that we remove all goth metal bands from the goth rock list. Apart from it being the difference between rock and metal, goth metal has nothing to do with goth rock or goth culture. The meaning of goth in goth metal is different to the meaning of goth in goth rock. - 666zombie666

Agreed.

Another request is that industrial bands are removed from the list. Industrial music is not goth music. Something about fusion can be mentioned but I think that if an article is about Goth Rock then the bands mentioned should be Goth Rock bands (or very similar genres such as Death Rock and Darkwave) - 666zombie666

We seriously need to trim the band list. Yes, industrial and other genres have overlap with goth, but it's not really informative to include all bands associated with the gothic scene. Plus, we have band lists for Industrial, Death Rock, etc. already. I don't mind if someone adds modifiers indicating a band is industrial or whatever, but just throwing in Nurse With Wound on a list of gothic rock artists isn't helping anyone. WesleyDodds 03:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Generations

Does anyone else think the random paragraph on Canadian bands in the 2nd gen. section feels out of place?

First half of 4th generation removed, this is an article about what Gothic Rock IS, not what it is misconceived by the media as, the bands mentioned in "3rd generation" aren't any generation of goth rock because they do not pertain to the genre. Glowstick kids and metal is not part of “Goth rock” there is already a “Goth metal” article on this site for those bands. - Deathrocker 07:08, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment on Removal of '4th Generation': Agreed with your conclusion, but you may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. There has a distinct change in the sound and style of Gothic Rock since the 9-11-01 event, and the sounds now (Dresden Dolls, Cinema Strange, Black Ice, etc.) are distinctly different from what marked the post-alternative era from 1995-1998, which had primarily either of two directions: a techno-cyberpunk or Projekt-style feel to it (Mors Syphilitica, Love Spirals Downward, Lycia, Sheep On Drugs, Wupscut, Haujobb, Apoptyma, etc). This should be recognized as fourth-generation goth, not third.

Gothic Rock?

I thought Gothic rock was a subset of metal, coming from a completely different tradition than gothic, or postpunk. This article just puts everything together as if it were one thing; different music styles, fashion and lifestyle... Migdejong 09:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Er, what? I think you are thinking about gothic metal. And this article doesn't put everything together; that's the Goth article. WesleyDodds 05:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I know this as goth rock, it is called that on the german, the French and the dutch wiki. You're right about the putting things together, I'm sorry... Migdejong 09:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Images

Somebody knows where the images have gone? 83.160.234.29 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason there aren't any images in the article?DeadLeafEcho 02:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

EBM / NDW

At the same time bands like Bauhaus and Christian Death were forming in those countries, dark bands such as Einstürzende Neubauten (1980), Xmal Deutschland (1980), Die Krupps (1981), and Pink Turns Blue were forming in Germany. Belgium gave rise to electronic body music (EBM) with influence from bands such as Kraftwerk and the early EBM band Front 242 (1981).

• A part of this section is not important for the article, because Einstürzende Neubauten, Front 242 & Krupps were never goth bands... they came from the post-industrial- & electro-punk-scene.

Well I Dont know about you guys, but here in aus, Darkwave, industrial and cyberpunk are very much part of the goth culture... gothic rock is a subset of gothic music. Definatley not the other way around. (J. P Marshall III)

• To the first part - I agree, but hose bands also aren't from the post-industrial and electro-punk-scene, they were industrial! To the second part - Yes, that may be true (in fact, it largely is true in America, too), but in the 80s, when gothic rock started, that definitely was not the case. However, this article is about gothic rock, not the much more broad topic of music that has a gothic sound, flavor, or image. Folkor 07:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Neubauten is a group from the post-industrial-era (about 1981), Die Krupps were electropunk (volle kraft voraus!), Front 242 were EBM. That's not the same like Industrial! Especially in the US, any shit is industrial or goth... really strange opinions...

Darkwave is not a part of the Goth culture, because Darkwave is the dark side of New wave, nothing more. Within the New wave movement there were many styles with dark and spooky sounds, especially Goth rock and Coldwave etc.

I think it's probably debatable that the term "darwave" is not associated with the goth culture. As the wiki article on darkwave succinctly puts it... it's a generic term... pretty much a catch all for all sorts of dark new wave music, and certainly plenty of goth bands fall in that category. Anyways, that's not what's realy being debated here, is it? What's being debated is the inclusion of certain bands that are not goth rock in this specific paragraph. The thing is, the article isn't argueing that these bands are specifically goth rock bands, but simply dark bands which sprung up during the goth subculture's genesis. These bands were eventually embraced into most of the goth scene even though they may not exactly be Goth rock bands, and if not, they deffinantly influenced the sound (and look) of goth over the years. Oh, and believe it or not, I know an American or two (including myself occasionally) who's just as anal about making sure every band fits into their own sub sub sub genre (not just broadly goth or industrial) so maybe there's hope for the US after all. ;D--Adrift* 18:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There is the main problem: Early goth bands in Europe and Australia

See, I think i'm seeing it in a totally different way than you are. I really don't think it's a big deal that these bands are not strictly "goth rock", because this part of the article is just highlighting the influences and development of the goth music scenes in Germany, Amsterdam, and Australia. Yeah, maybe a few more strictly "goth rock" bands should be name dropped, but the goth music scene we have today (in all it's wonderful variety) has strong roots to the bands in the article. But hey, if you think you can word that part of the article a bit better, why don't you come up with something and shop it around to the other editors. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal that these bands are in this part of the article, but that's just me...--Adrift* 01:43, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's ok to make reference to these bands and movements, but we shouldn't give too much space to it, since this article is about a particular style rather than music that is popular in goth culture. WesleyDodds 03:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Very true. Folkor 03:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

  I'd rather see Malaria! get a mention then Neubauten. --FACT50 20:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Info box

Just cuious, but why is the info box named Alternative rock and not Gothic Rock? And why is Grunge listed as a subgenre and a derivative form? --Adrift* 20:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Because that's the infobox for alt-rock, of which goth rock is a part. If you are suggesting that that infobox be used only on the alt-rock page, and that a new one be written for this one, I'd say that that sounds like good logic. Folkor 08:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

agreed. there's some stuff here about genre infoboxes. --MilkMiruku 04:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't think that reasoning makes much sense. Indie rock evolved out of punk and post-punk, and grunge is a mixture hardocre punk fused with metal. So listing them as derivative forms is misleading because neither one of them evolved from Gothic Rock, and neither one of them is a Gothic Rock fusion genre. Dark Cabaret and Gothabilly considers themselves fusion genres where Gothic Rock is one of their influnces, perhaps they could be listed as a derivative forms of Gothic Rock. FilmGal 03:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Some of these look dubious at best and a couple of them seem to directly violate Links to normally avoid policy [[1]]. I'm thinking we should probably take some time to discuss which links would be valid to include with the article before anyone goes off deleting them all though. Thoughts?--Adrift* 18:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• That sounds like a great plan. I've oft wondered about many of those links. Folkor 06:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

i also brought this issue to attention on Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres here (not that anyone else has replied yet :p) --MilkMiruku 01:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• I removed the Gothic Beauty link from the See Also links. That is a private company, not an informative site or literary refference. --FACT50 20:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

First Generation

I've been making some pretty big edits to this section of the article. I deleted this line: Throbbing Gristle's Industrial Records (1976) exemplified this attitude amongst the post-punk groups. Throbbing Gristle made the way for Industrial music, which is often catagoroized in with Goth because each cross lines and are easy to merge in the club scenes. In recent years, the tendency has swung almost entirely the other way, with many bands being quick to label themselves as goth and borrow the imagery. Because, unlike the debate in the EBM subheading on this talk page, i seriously can't see a reason to add TG to this section of the article. First off, (and correct me if i'm wrong) TG is not a postpunk band (they're strictly industrial) and the article doesn't go on to explain how TG exemplifies a distaste for labels. Secondly, it's stretching it to say that industrial is categorized in with "goth rock" (that's the topic isn't it?) or that post-industrial bands are are "quick to label themselves as goth". I also edited the area referring to The Sisters and how they don't fancy themselves a goth band. It just seemed a bit off subject when discussing the origins of the First Generation goth bands, the other deletions and edits i made were based on clarifying confusing sections of the article and removing redundant info.--Adrift* 01:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Throbbing Gristle are considered post-punk in some circles, but yeah, they don't need to be in this article at all. WesleyDodds 08:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Came across this discussion by accident, I remember when bands didn't really have labels and Throbbing Gristle was a "spooky" band that had a big influence on those that would evently form the "Gothic Movement". Whether they were first generation or just highly influential is debatable.--MALCOMXBLISS 02:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I think they were considered seperately experimental at the time. Industrial rose around the same time as Punk (Arguably Suicide and TG's first real "albums" sprung up in 77 around the same time as the Sex Pistol's first LP the same year. With Cabaret Voltaire's first LP in 79). As far as Goth is concerned, Bauhaus' Bela Lugosi's Dead EP (arguebly the first goth 'song') didn't appear till 79. If anything these band did influence what would be part of the overall future goth scene, but when discussing the first generation of goth at large... are they appropriate for the article? Personally, I don't think so.--Adrift* 05:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Always going to be a problem deciding who is in the "first generation" of any "movement" since the bands involved seldom know they are part of a movement. History usually decides long after the fact. Just look at the five bands listed under "Early goth bands in America"; Christian Death (at least early on) and 45 Grave were totally punk bands. Voodoo Church had such a limited output it's hard to say, but if given the chance they probably would have gone metal. Kommunity FK also had a quite limited output, but seemed to have more in common with the Suicides, Throbbing Gristles and the artsy farsty post punk movement than their deathrock counterparts. The fifth band, Theatre of Ice is by far the most obscure albeit also probably the most prolific. They had songs that today would fit the very "formula" of goth -- but also did deathrock, experimental, post-punk, pop -- you name it they did it (and probably did it before the others, they were just located in some obscure dead animal pit in the Nevada desert instead of L.A., London or New York). I find it intersting that you can now find so much information on the web about Theatre of Ice, when back in the 80's it was nearly impossible to find their recordings.--63.240.135.30 09:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

That's probably because some of the band members of Theatre of Ice are semi-active within the current deathrock scene (especially on message boards). But yes, I agree that history usually decides who had any major involvment in how the scene unfolded. I'd only argue that Christian Death, though strongly tied to the LA punk scene, probably had an undeniable connection to the evolution of goth music, but anyways, I get your point.--Adrift* 22:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree about Christian Death, althought I think they are abit "over-rated", not that they weren't great, but I think they were elevated by many to a "god-like" status. As for Theatre of Ice, whether they are responsible for it, or others --- history has been very kind to them. Back in the late 80's I tried desperately to get copies of "Mouse Blood" and "A Cool Dark Place to Die" --- most the time my letters were returned "Address Unknown". Now I have copies of both on CD. In a way it was cooler to try and find stuff that was so obscure and unavailable --- now it's all there for the asking. In many ways they've lost their mystery. They were definitely a band that many more had heard of, then had heard.--68.3.17.24 09:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed Siouxsie & the Banshees from the introduction as a "Goth" band. They were originally "punk", although not typical of conceptions of that genre even, and had a relatively brief period where their music could be described a "gothic" - even in retrospect. They obviously had a good deal of influence on the emerging scene, especially stylistically, but this is commented upon later in the article. Referring to them as gothic is simply an example of lazy journalism, after the event, which has taken on the label of fact.88.109.17.2 19:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC) damn, my connection was lost...LessHeard vanU 19:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah i didn't get that edit to Siouxsie to tell the truth. Practically every single first generation Goth Rock band was punk originally. With that reasoning we might as well ensure there are no references to The Cure, The Cult, UK Decay, and even Sisters of Mercy at the very beginning of their career. Obviously bands like the Banshees and The Cure went on and evolved their sound, but they're such an integral part to what Goth Rock is, it's wild to not include them as forefronters of the earliest part of the scene. PS. I understand "They" might not agree that they were Goth Rock (who did?) but as stated elsewhere, if that was the deciding factor in who is Goth rock and who isn't there wouldn't be any Goth Rock bands to refer back to.--Adrift* 22:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In "Siouxsie And The Banshees: The Authorised Biography", by Mark Paytress, 1981, Steve Severin says, "We'd actually described Join Hands as "gothic" at the time of its release, but journalists hadn't picked up on it. Certainly, at that time we were reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe and writers like that. A song like "Premature Burial" from that album is certainly gothic in its proper sense." --Amber388

Yes, and didn't that comment come back to bite them later? Obviously, as he was referring to a record from 1979, he was not commenting on a "scene" or musical/fashion movement since it hadn't started. However, from such little acorns mighty oaks doth grow. Seeing as SatB are undeniably an influence (and some insist a part of) the UK goth scene it may be worthwhile working that quote into the main body of the article - and let people make of it as they will?LessHeard vanU 21:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Or even better, find the original Banshees quote - and put them both in!LessHeard vanU 21:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• I added T.S.O.L. and Burning Image to the early Califronia examples. Both certainly fit within the confines of first generation American Gothic/Deathrock. --FACT50 20:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Columbine

How much of an influence did the shootings there have on Goth Rock and the overall goth scene? I'm wondering specifically about this sentance. The upshot was that many talented acts toured and recorded from 1995 to the end of the millennium, though their work was overshadowed both in popularity and ultimate influence by bands and fans alike who by-and-large cast off all things "gothic" once the Columbine school shooting happened in 1999. If anything this was probably an american only phenomenon, but to tell the truth, it really didn't seem to me that there was that much of an effect on the scene in America. Sure there were a few more "goths" on TV talk shows maybe, but overall I don't remember an influx of bands and fans casting away all things goth. Any opinions?--Adrift* 22:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

If anything it increased interest in goth music. Many people I think had no idea it existed. Those that were scared by it obviously would have never listened to it anyway. Those interested in "rebellion" or "counter-culture" had a list of new and old bands to go after and a new look which they could use to scare their "authority figures". I'm sure some parents "forbad" their children from listening to it which made many of them more rabid fans.--63.240.135.30 09:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

G**h bands, bless them, nearly always have at least one member who are pretty smart. It was quickly apparent that the protagonists in the Columbine tragedy used firearms to inflict the casualties they did, and not an assortment of amulets and silver headed canes. The fact they were dressed in para-military garb rather than velvet frock jackets give some clue as how they perceived matters.

I know the above sounds flippant, but there were as many people wanting an excuse to censor the goth / deathmetal etc. music genres as there were wanting to preserve the right to bear arms. The choice of the duo in their taste in music was soon realised as more a sympton of their social estrangement (and even that is stating it too strongly, perhaps) as its cause. As Michael Moore pointed out, nobody mentions the couples membership of the local bowling club as a factor. Marylin Manson made some very astute comments about people who listened to his music and the prelevance of serial killers amongst them (no different to those who listened to any other type of music). I applaud the bands who continued to purvey their music in the light of those ridiculous attempts to link homicidal individuals to taste in music types.LessHeard vanU 11:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Pre punk influences and anti-New Romanticism

i dont understand why Leonard Cohen isnt listed under this sub section. it makes no logical sense.

There isn't much in the article about the pre Punk influences on Goth music (do you have any idea how difficult it is for me, a Siouxsie and the Banshees fan, to write those words?), certainly in terms of subject matter and themes. I'm thinking particularly of Lou Reeds' Transformer and Berlin albums, Bowies' Low / Heroes / Scary Monsters (And Supercreeps) trilogy especially (although most of his post The Man Who Sold The World work would have some relevance), plus records by The Doors, Leonard Cohen, Scott Walker and the like, dwelling on the themes of doomed romanticism, insanity, suicide, decadence, loneliness etc. often set to stark yet sumptuous arrangements. Nearly all of the early G**h bands included Glam rock numbers in their set, although with darker/heavier arrangements, so these ideas of stylistic rebellion found some resonance in the later scene.

As for musical style predecessors you will have to include some fairly contraversial names, like mid period Pink Floyd, Gong and even Black Sabbath. If you want some prototype thudding hard percussion, booming bass lines and sweeping guitar these guys had it (just ignore the often silly words!) You might also want to listen to the work of some Krautrock bands, especially Can and Tangerine Dream. I would suggest that the major influence of SatB and Joy Division would be the placing of the bass unusually high in the mix, and it often carrying the melody/arrangement.

My other memory of that time is that G**h was very much the antithesis of "New Romanticism", which was very taken with the idea of dressing up for its own sake and generally being rather carefree and shallow in comparison to what had gone on immediately before. Whilst G**h tried to ignore the mainstream, the New Romantics wanted to be the new mainstream. I often thought that G**h would seem to subvert a lot of New Romantic style expressions by adopting a darker variant. Just my take on the scene, though.

Despite the amount I have written here, I am not the person to add it to the article. There seems to be enough editors here to be able to pick out anything they like from the above and add it in as they see fit, and it is your/their area of expertise - not mine. ps. Don't worry about me writing it "G**h", at least I didn't spell it "Goff" like a certain bassist does on his website! LessHeard vanU 01:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That is somewhat addressed by the musical predecessors section farther down the page. But if it needs to be expanded upon elsewhere in the article I'm not necessarily sure how to go about it. WesleyDodds 22:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The New Romantic/Goth split is highlighted in the Goth article. But it seems appropriate that more mention of post-punk influence as well as rock influences on goth should be cited within the article. I haven't been as active as i should be on these articles lately, but I'll try to help edit more as soon as time allows.--Adrift* 23:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Musical traits

Anyone else think the diction of the current form of the musical traits section is a bit impenetrable? WesleyDodds 17:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll clean it up later today. I wrote some of it originally and am mostly just wanting to make sure it doesn't devolve into esoterica about single-coil Fender guitars again. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Amber388

Esoterica Devolution the long-awaited debut by Impenetrable Diction... nevermind. sorry.DeadLeafEcho 05:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Wave-Gotik-Treffen

This isn't a pure gothic meeting, maybe you can see the term WAVE? WAVE is connected to the german Darkwave movement... --87.122.27.204 02:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW: This festival has nothing to do with the goth rock movement. In the 1990s, gothic rock was a popular genre in germany, a handful of bands played on the Wave-Gotik-Treffen. But not in the present time... most goth rock bands split up in the late 90s. The WGT of today isn't a wave or gothic rock festival. Wave and Gothic rock are dead genres in Germany. --~Menorrhea 14:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Related Genres

I added both Neofolk and Neo-Medieval to the related genres section. Neofolk is an already existing page, but I am working on creating one for Neo-Medieval. I am still learning how to use Wikipedia, so I will create it to my best ability. Anyone who is knowledgable about the genre is free to edit/clean up and help with the page. JanderVK 12:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Concerning WesleyDodds deletion of the link to Neofolk, I wouldn't say it's unrelated. Though, I'm sure many purist Neofolk fans would disagree, Neofolk has had a very notable and noticeable part in the Goth scene for years... I'd go as far as saying since it's inception really. Bands in the Neofolk sub-genre are consistently listened to, played in clubs, and have been reviewed in Goth magazines for years. Its only since the millenium really that "Neofolk" as a side genre has come into its own as a nationalistic, neo-heathen seperate genre. Before that many old school goths listened to and enjoyed bands like Death in June and Current 93. I agree that neo-medieval may be a neologism, but I think maybe the genre neoclassical probably doesn't truly convey what modern type medieval sounding bands have been doing (especially considering the traditional roots of neoclassical music).--Adrift* 06:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I must of missed what this person had to say, but I don't understand why Neo-Medieval was deleted. It is becoming a prominent and established genre of it's own, with many different styles (Gothic, Metal, Industrial etc.). There are bands such as Corvus Corax (traditional) and The Soil Bleeds Black (Gothic) that have been around for over a decade now. I think it has passed the neologism stage (as the word "Goth" once was), and in the realm of it's own being, with bands establishing themselves as being "Neo-Medieval". If someone who possibly might not be as informative about the movement as I am decided to delete it, fine, I will leave it be. I'd rather not start a flame war over it. I just thought it is important enough to include. Just ask the people who put on Wave Gottik Treffen every year... JanderVK 1:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Adrift - Nationalistic? "Neo-heathen?" Come on now! As for the term neo-medieval .. Well, you're probably not going to find that too popular simply because it's not a term commonly used to describe that sort of music. But, yes, I agree that there's a relation, particularly during the 'apocalyptic folk' period and its relation to the German 'dark' scene that eventually lead to the spawning of 'neofolk' music as a distinct spectrum of artists and culture. However, one could easily argue the relation to industrial music is far more apparent. :bloodofox: 11:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

you don't think that the neofolk scene is being redefined by heathenism and that a lot of the fans and musicians of neofolk tend towards nationalism? It certainly appears that way to me. However, I do agree with you about the relationship to industrial... to tell the truth, i don't feel strongly enough about it either way to fight for its inclusion as a link in this article.--Adrift* 01:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Heathenry has always played a large role in neofolk music, especially within the last several years as the genre has matured. I was raising a proverbial eyberow at the odd term "Neo-heathen.." As for nationalism, I really don't think nationalism has much at all to do with neofolk music. Martial music, to some extent with some artists. As for neofolk music, I cannot think of a single band that has any sort of nationalistic implications and that's negating the fact that equating Heathenry and modern nationalism together is extremely dubious. :bloodofox: 21:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Predecessors

Considering Joy Division is a massive influence on gothic rock but most sources don't consider them gothic rock proper, how about we add a paragraph on them to the musical predecessors section? We can probably just cut and paste the paragraph from the Joy Division article on goth here. WesleyDodds 06:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. --Adrift* 17:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually Joy Division were a New Wave / Dark wave band. Most of this article is faked information, in my opinion. With all due respect, I never heard such term, Gothic rock, along the 1980s. We used the term Darkwave. Gothic rock seems to me the Nth invention of a group of music web journalists from London that are trying to make their POV as a sort of universal truth. The same applies to the words Electronica and IDM: never heard before 2002-2004. Please also see my edits here [2] Dr. Who 01:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is implying that Joy Division was a Goth band, simply that their influence is felt in Goth Rock. And as far as the label "Goth" is concerned, i'm sure youre right that it wasn't very common before about the mid to late 80s. Pete Scathe in his article on the Goth scene said that that most bands in England either considered themselves Positive Punk or (later) Posi-Punk (I can't confirm, i wasn't there, but he's got some verifiable sources to back him up). Rozz Williams is quoted somewhere around here (i think it's in the Deathrock article) that before the Sisters of Mercy got big, Goth used to be called Deathrock in America. Other American musicians have told me they considered even their mid-80s bands Post-Punk, not Goth, Positive Punk, Dark Wave, or Deathrock. So yeah, you're right... it's the nth label, probably tacked on by journalists, for a series of bands that are loosely connected by scene, sound, and fashion. So what? Did the Wiki scribes make up the term? Hardly. I remember it being called "Goth" in the late 80s. Which parts do you think are faked? The great thing about Wiki is that we need to be called out on these things so we can verify our claims and avoid Original Research. As far as label Electronica is concerned, I was working in a music shop here in the mid-west from about 94-97, and we were using that term to describe everything from Moby and Portishead, to Elastica and Poe (of all things). As far as IDM goes, I agree, I never really heard the term till around... 2002 or so, but that's not to say that the term wasn't used somewhere before then. Just because I never heard it used doesn't mean it never happened, and if someone else can verify that it has, why argue?--Adrift* 03:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Joy Division isn't New Wave. They're consistently labeled as post-punk, to the point where the joint entry on Joy Division/New Order from Rolling Stone's 1983 encyclopedia of rock music refers to Joy Division as "post-punk" and New Order as "New Wave". WesleyDodds 10:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of sources, I'll at some point in the future get to citing material from Simon Reynolds' Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984 and the authorized Siouxsie and the Banshees biography. Both describe goth's roots from post-punk, and both establish that the terms have been in use since the early 80s. WesleyDodds 10:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Please remove Gary Numan, he had nothing to do with the Goth at that stage; though in recent years he writes lyrics and music pertaining to modern industrial and goth scenes, in late 1970s he was labelled postpunk or "electronic rock". Yes, that's true that Joy division were postpunk, but many "dark" listeners regarded them as (influential-)part of their scene. Actually I've found a source dating 1985 regarding the use of the term Goth and Neo Goth (?). I want to explain better my doubts: I am not trying to say that any of the term Goth, Gothic Rock, Dark, Dark Wave, Dark New Wave is faked or invented here, obviously, I just would like people and wikipedians to search further information regarding the chance that some terms are or were used just as mere stylistic adjectives, and are/were not referred to a Music genre in term of music theory. In other words, in this case, what's the difference between Gothic rock and Dark(wave)? To me it seems that in 1980/89 they were the same scene and style.Dr. Who 14:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The use of Darkwave is more expansive, incorporating bands like Depeche Mode and Cocteau Twins. WesleyDodds 17:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be great if you could cross-link both these articles and explain this matter. In the meanwhile I've found this database [3].Dr. Who 22:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I bought two books. The first book (called Die Gothics) says, that dark wave is the original dark music of the 70s / 80s, mostly rock music with bands such as Joy Division, Bauhaus, Siouxsie & The Banshees, The Cure, The Sisters Of Mercy, Clan Of Xymox etc. The second book (called Gothic- und Dark Wave-Lexikon says that darkwave is an undefinable mixture of postpunk, batcave, new wave and new romantic. Haha, this topic is really funny... --Menorrhea 23:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed music is also fun; it's ok if someone is going to improve these article, though they just need some minor rework, but please, I hope none will come just to say nonsense such as "merge", "redirect", "delete" (of course I am not referring to you). Here in my county recently (ehr.., 15 years ago) the Christian Death came for a concert, but I didnt go to the show becouse those days I was only into Jazz-Fusion and New age ambient. Uh, I just remembered that some works of The Residents and Tuxedomoon were seen as influential by many listeners and musicians along the 1980s. Good work.Dr. Who 23:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Missing Bands

Early goth/dark wave bands in Germany

• Geisterfahrer (Schatten voraus, 1980)
• Xmal Deutschland (Succubus Incubus, 1982)
• Leningrad Sandwich (Heat, 1982)
• Malaria! (Emotion, 1982)
• Mona Mur (Jeszcze Polska, 1982) (Co-operation with Einstürzende Neubauten - See this funny video!)
• Belfegore (Belfegore, 1984)
• Marquee Moon (Beyond The Pale, 1985) (http://www.crepuscle.com/marqueemoon/marquee.htm)
• Remain In Silence (Monument, 1985)
• Stimmen der Stille (Morgenstern, 1987)

Early goth bands in Spain, France and Greece

• Ana Curra (http://users.servicios.retecal.es/asegura/)
• Parálisis Permanente (http://usuarios.lycos.es/quierosersanta/)
• Los Humillados
• Neva (http://thearchive.free.fr/arch-neva.htm)
• Villa 21 (Ghost On The Move, 1983)
• Metro Decay (Ipervasi, 1984)
• South Of No North (Lacrimae Christ!, 1985)

I removed Front 242, Die Krupps and the Einstürzende Neubauten. All of these bands were post-industrial/post-punk groups. Front 242 were influenced by DAF, Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire etc. Die Krupps were an avantgarde/post-industrial group in those days. They are absolutely goth-untypical... --~Menorrhea 15:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Again on the terms

Actually Joy Division were a New Wave / Dark wave band. Most of this article is faked information, in my opinion. With all due respect, I never heard such term, Gothic rock, along the 1980s. We used the term Darkwave. Gothic rock seems to me the Nth invention of a group of music web journalists from London that are trying to make their POV as a sort of universal truth. The same applies to the words Electronica and IDM: never heard before 2002-2004. Please also see my edits here [4] Dr. Who 01:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What complete nonsense. The main origin of Goth as a term for the sub-culture is commonly agreed to have been Ian Astbury mocking Andi Sexgang, though there are other influences [[5]]. Gothic Rock proper came from the UK scene of 1983, particularly around the Batcave club. Arguing that the term that was used at the time, in the place, where Gothic Rock was born is "the Nth invention of a group of music web journalists from London" (oh, I wonder who you're talking about) is the most ridiculous crap I've heard. Gothic Rock is a UK thing, there has been a constant scene in London since 1983. There are people still in the scene who have been part of it for 23 years. I do, however, agree that Joy Division were not a Goth band, they were clearly part of the post-punk movement that ran parallel to the Industrial Records scene. Donnacha 10:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that goth was an UK thing. But bands like Alien Sex Fiend said that they didn't knew what gothic is. IMO goth was a little movement in Leeds or London about 1983 until 1986. Many groups from the batcave club didn't use the term gothic, e.g. the Virgin Prunes hated this term. On the European continent there were parallel movements in France and in Germany (including bands such as Malaria!, Xmal Deutschland, Geisterfahrer etc.). They never used the british term "goth(ic)", but mostly "wave". In Germany "goth" as a term came into use in 1992/93. --Menorrhea 12:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

A lot of bands didn't like the term goth. Some felt it was limiting, and it was also used as an insult. Nevetheless, they still fit the style. WesleyDodds 12:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Not liking the term is one of the main cliches of the Goth scene - There's nothing more Goth than insisting you're not a Goth. Uncle Andy (Andrew Eldritch) is one of the key figures in this, he loves slagging of the scene, his fans and they, in turn, love slagging him right back and calling him Goth. The Virgin Prunes were a different case, they were around before '83, were highly experimental and disliked what they saw as the lack of imagination of the new wave of Goth bands in the UK. Anyway, this article is about Gothic Rock, so it's always going to be difficult. The term Gothic started out as a simple adjective used by and for some bands like the Banshees and Joy Division. This does not make them Gothic Rock. It then became a term of mockery in the London scene, where the more serious "Positive Punk" (particularly Southern Death Cult) bands mocked the more stylised and outrageous bands like Specimen or Sex Gang Children and their fans. Then it became the term for the scene (ironically including the Positive Punk bands), then it grew to become a definable sub-culture, particularly as it merged with the US Death Rock scene. The music is notoriously difficult to define because it is the music associated with the sub-culture rather than a specific musical style. Donnacha 13:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Goth as a music style is pretty easy to define. This does a pretty good job of it:

Standard musical fixtures included scything guitar patterns, high-pitched post-Joy Division basslines that usurped the melodic role, beats that were either hypnotically dirgelike or "tribal" in some ethnically indeterminate Burundi-meets-Apache way, and vocals that were either operatic and Teutonic or deep, droning alloys of Jim Morrison and Ian Curtis. (Reynolds, 353)

It's when you try to define gothic rock by the subculture that things get tricky. WesleyDodds 13:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL, you'll note there's quite a few eithers and ors in ther! It also misses out the innovative use of repetitive electronic beats (early Sisters of Mercy), the inclusion of "world music" elements (early Dead Can Dance), the screechy vocals of Rozz Williams and the likes, etc. So many different bands have been called Gothic because they became part of the sub-culture rather than the fact that they soundalike. Sheesh, The Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus and The Fields of the Nephilim - three of the iconic Goth bands - do not sound particularly alike. Donnacha 14:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

That's getting into individual tics. The Sisters, Bauhaus, and Fields of the Nephilim may sound different, but it's more that they're coming from a similar grounding with different takes. Like how blues artists can have easily-identifiable unique styles yet can still be considered blues. And as for Dead Can Dance, that's getting into the whole 4AD goth-descended thing that's since been labeled dream pop.

Certainly the subculture comes into it; the music and the culture are more or less intimately tied. But it's still a definable style of music. People have done it. Just because people listen to it in the goth scene doesn't mean that's the primary way to define it. If you're looking for music from the goth scene, check out the music section in goth subculture. WesleyDodds 14:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I was being a little argumentative to prove a point. That said, the original Batcave and Death Rock sub-cultures pretty much defined what became the original guidelines to the music. But, back to the original poster, Dr. Who hasn't a clue (hey, that rhymes). Donnacha 16:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Gothrock and the goth culture are 2 seperate things. The question is not whether or not goths listen to it, or whether it makes you think of the dark ages or gothic fiction literature. Joy Division was so influential that many or all gothrock bands have clearly been influenced by Joy Division. So even if the term was not used by Joy Division they are part of what everyone refers to when they say goth rock. If there was no Joy Division, and a new band was born now that happened to sound like Joy Division, they would be catagorized goth rock. If someone said let me hear what Goth Rock sounds like, you could let them listen to Joy Division, without giving them the wrong impression. Thats all general readers of an encyclopedia are looking for.TheDarknessVisible 21:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Clean up

I cleaned up some pretty broken grammar in this article, and fixed some factual errors. Also adding alink to Coldwave (the french centered atmospheric guitar genre, not the U.S. Industrial/Metal hybrid) to the related genres list. --FACT50 20:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Related Genres

Rather than have a revert battle over whether to include industrial and EBM in related genres, I figured I'd open it up to discussion. The current logic being used to excluse them is that they do not share musical characteristics. A.) I disagree that they do not share musical characteristics, as per Diary of Dreams, Dream Disciples, Cruxshadows, ThouShaltNot, Tear Garden, Cyan, Shock Therapy, and Car Crash International. Furthermore, their musical heritages are deeply entwined, especially if one looks to strong relationships between Neubauten/Nick Cave, Joy Division/Psychic TV, Legendary Pink Dots/Skinny Puppy, Christian Death/Nocturnal Emissions. And I haven't even hit the late 80s yet, chronologically. B.) Are stylistic similarities really the basis for related genres? I would call the early baroque a related genre to the second Viennese school, even though they have effectively no stylistic similarities, but they take part in the same musical tradition. Similarly, rock 'n' roll and jazz are related genres, as they feed off of one another and one was impossible without the other.

To be frank, I'm leaning towards the inclusion of both EBM and Industrial in the related music genres-- primarily for the same reasons that you stated. Though I can see why some people would have trouble including them. Take industrial for instance-- that genre has evolved to the point where it now has an assortment of sub-genres, one of which is devoted to bands with a very metal sound. And apparently, many rivet-heads have taken to calling the early industrial bands (the bands that were truly close to the goth bands of the same era) something along the lines of "experimental noise". Even though when I think of industrial, I think of bands like Cabaret Voltaire or Einsturzende Neubauten, alot of people associate industrial with the more "industrial metal" bands-- which to me, sound nothing like the industrial bands of yore. There's also the fact that Industrial music and EBM have FAR more similarities to Darkwave (which has its own article here), and has evolved to the point where it is distinct from goth rock as we know it. Nonetheless, I still think it wouldn't be wrong to list Industrial and EBM as related subgenres. Any other opinions? I'd like to see more reasons to back up either claim. Inclusion or no inclusion? --CatZilla 23:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think a purist attitude toward goth rock is elitist, outdated, and prescriptive. Musically AND culturally, I think definitely industrial, and maybe EBM deserve to be listed here under related genres. If others disagree, I welcome their viewpoints. Let's hear it. Amber388 01:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about the music genre gothic rock, EBM and Industrial have NOTHING to do characteristically with this form of music. Thus they don't belong on this article. If this was an article about gothic subculture, it may be worth mentioning how EBM pushed gothic rock out of the clubs... but it isn't, its the equivelent of listing "Punk rock" as a related form of the "progressive rock" article. - Deathrocker 09:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I understand where you're coming from, and am more or less willing to grant that EBKM is a stretch; by the time its modern incarnation came into being, the dialogue between goth and industrial had more or less had its effects. I really do maintain that industrial belongs though, for all the reasons stated in my first paragraph on the issue. The comingling of genres since the earliest days of both goth and industrial is undeniable. As I recognize this is a loaded issue for some, I'll not be making any edits along these lines myself, but I'd have no complaints if others added industrial back.

And FYI, the edit by metallicker was not a sock puppet of mine. I do not know who that user is, but s/he seems just to have lifted my edit summary. I promise, I don't use sockpuppets, and I hope that my ~750 wikipedia edits thus far demonstrate my integrity as an editor. No hard feelings. Amber388 12:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I know Metallicker isn't a sockpuppet of yours. But he is suspected of being a sockpuppet account and is making malicious edits in regards to my edits because I opened a case on him. Sorry if there was any confusion with that.

If this was an article on darkwave then industrial and EBM would fit as related styles. But industrial is not related to gothic rock... the only thing they have in common is that they are forms of post-punk (as is indie, alternative rock, etc).. but this is an article on purely gothic rock, not post punk. - Deathrocker 12:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Industrial music can't be a form of post-punk. The first industrial artists were formed in 1974. The stage of industrial music (1975-1981) has nothing to do with punk or goth. There were a few overlaps within the post-industrial movement, that's all (e.g. Alien Sex Fiend mingled goth, psychobilly and post-industrial sounds). The post-industrial movement had begun with the split of Throbbing Gristle in 1981. ~Menorrhea 17:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There were quite a lot of bands we consider "postpunk" who were around pre-punk. Pere Ubu, Devo, Suicide, Wire, to name a few. To be sure, the link between industrial and punk itself is limited, but postpunk and industrial were in heavy dialogue, especially by the time that industrial became a genre of pop music (early 80s). Industrial indeed has different roots than goth, but they have walked hand in hand intermittantly for more than twenty-five years. Amber388 19:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

post-industrial, not industrial. That's a difference. Suicide was electropunk. --~Menorrhea 19:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Those terms don't seem reliable. Suicide is definitely often classified as post-punk. WesleyDodds 21:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the specific "relationship" required to be listed under Related Genres. It seems like a largely pointless section. If it doesn't document exactly what the relationship is, we are going to simply get into revert wars. How is this information of any use without documenting the relationship? TheDarknessVisible 19:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Gothic Beauty

Gothic beauty on their own web page include the following: "underground fashion & pop culture: Established in 2000, Gothic Beauty covers Underground fashion, lifestyle and events, as well as music and entertainment. Independently published four times a year, Gothic Beauty has grown into America's largest Gothic publication."

Its a goth music magazine among other things. It belongs in the article. TheDarknessVisible 00:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel that it does. It does not focus on gothic rock music. Most of the bands that it covers are not gothic rock. They are either synthpop, nu-metal,industrial or EBM. There are differences between the genres. If it focused more on gothic rock then I wouldn't have a problem with it's inclusion. Also, it primarily focuses on fashion, not music. Just because a band is called goth doesn't mean that they are gothic rock. There is a difference because gothic rock is a sub genre of goth. The term does not cover all 'goth' bands.- Crescentia

The section on 3rd generation does not focus on goth rock. it specifically says GOTH SCENE. And Gothic beauty was already present (by consensus) in the paragraph. You only noticed that I added a URL. It should not be removed without a consensus now, simply because I added a url.

With that said, Gothic Beauty would be happy to interview any goth rock bands. Although you are right, it doesn't exclude other things 'goth'. As long as the entire section talks about goth scene and and implies it is talking about "goth fanzines" rather than gothrock fanzines, then then Gothic Beauty is appropriate. It has multiple music articles in each issue. The last issue I bought in addition to some interviews with bands inclued reviews of like 100 CD's. No.. its not all goth rock. In fact most isn't. But its all goth, and it is as related as cruxshadows, and voltaire. The problem is NOT the inclusion of Gothic Beauty. Is is the inclusion of the information about the goth scene. If the section talks about the goth scene it is suspicious to include certain elements which are not goth rock and then exclude gothic beauty.

I propose Gothic Beauty (its been there a while) until there is consensus as to what exactly this section is REALLY talking about. If it is talking only about goth rock, then mentioning specific non-gothrock bands by name is misleading. Also, if it only refers to goth rock, it should NOT purport to describe "the goth scene", because it misleads the reader into thinking gothrock is more prevalent than it really is. Do you know of a pure gothrock scene? Most goth scenes are mixed musical styles as the section already implies by mentioning industrial (it doesn't bother listing specific industrial bands). Gothic Beauty is a mixed music magazine which includes coverage of the entire goth scene, including goth music scene, gothic literature, gothic fashion, everything gothic in fact. Some consensus was reached to include it. It should not now be deleted without a consensus on reaching a policy for what exactly defines a "goth fanzine" or what that entire sections is REALLY intending to describe... The Goth Scene? or Gothrock? TheDarknessVisible 20:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you happen to work for Gothic Beauty magazine? You said I quote 'Gothic Beauty would be happy to interview any goth rock bands'. If you do work for them that is a clear conflict of interest and spam. Also, in many circles, Gothic Beauty is considered substandard when it comes to it's content. Many of the bands that they cover are not goth at all and it is geared towards mostly a teen crowd. The magazine is called Gothic Beauty not Gothic Rock or Gothic Music.-Crescentia

I do not work for gothic beauty. I have not heard any reliable reports of it being substandard. Can you quote a reliable source? I bought an issue of Gothic Beauty at a music store, HMV. Gothic Rock is beautiful so I dont see any contradiction there. In any event. I do not work for them. And if I did I would not be arguing in favour of the inclusion of orkus would I? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheDarknessVisible (talk • contribs) 21:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Orkus Magazine

I'm adding a reference to Orkus magazine. Its a gothic rock magazine among other things.TheDarknessVisible 00:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Orkus is absolutely no goth rock magazine... --~Menorrhea 14:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Orkus is not a goth magazine. I think you are having some problems with the definition of what gothic rock is. It is not goth metal, EBM, synthpop, etc. It is a sub genre. --~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crescentia (talk • contribs) 15:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Orkus is clearly a goth magazine. Most or all of the bands interviewed are part of goth scene. As to whether it is a gothrock magaze is a seperate question.

What percentage of coverage must be devoted to goth rock? Is the theshold 50% or more?

Cresentia you need to stop worrying about these 2 magazines. The problem is the entire paragraph:

"Though the goth scene has diminished in popularity and its record sales have fallen off, there are still events, labels, and publications supporting it. Dancing Ferret Discs, Projekt Records, and Metropolis Records are releasing goth music in the American market, and Cherry Red has been reissuing early goth rock recordings in Europe. The genre's most popular live events, such as the German Wave Gotik Treffen, Zillo festivals, the British Whitby Gothic Weekends, and NYC's Drop Dead Festival & Chamber's DAMF still draw tens of thousands of fans. Some of the pioneering goth zines or magazines have transitioned to the web, including My Gothic Heart, Asleep By Dawn, and Gothic.net. Others are still available in print editions, such as Drop Dead Magazine, Gothic Beauty[3], Orkus and Virus."

it says "goth scene", "Goth Music" "German Wave Gotik Treffen" "goth zines or magazines" "Gothic.net".... THOSE ARE GOTH CULTURE terms/events/sources, not gothrock per se. I dont know the other events mentioned off the top of my head, but I'm willing to bet some of those are ALSO not pure goth rock. The paragraph talks about goth culture, it only says goth rock once to say Cherry Red is REISSUING old gothic rock. (sugesting new gothicrock doesn't exist) Gothic Beauty and Orkus are BOTH "Goth zines or magazines" German Wave Gotik Treffen is not goth rock events but rather a GOTH CULTURE event.

lets stop worrying about the 2 magazines... for now please. Lets discuss the entire paragraph... and the entire section. As they stand they encompass more than goth rock. It is illogical to jump to the last sentence of the section and suddenly impose a different standard of purity. I agree on what you are saying, they are not gothrock magazines. They are goth magazines. Which is exactly what this paragraph purports to be telling the general reader. I can't in good conscience let the reader believe the only 2 goth magazines are drop dead and virus because it would be a lie. Perhaps a sentence indicating those 2 specialize in gothrock while the others cover the wider goth scene including other styles of goth music, would be better. Their mere omission does nothing to fix the fundamental problems with the section but is unfair to them. They are both very notable magazines with high production values.TheDarknessVisible 20:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

DropdeadMagazine purpose to be "Goth Punk Psycho"?? is that gothrock? Virus purports to be Gothic, EBM, Electro, Industrial, Metal, Alternative, Dark Wave, Pop, Emo

 it has an article "PAradise Lost to support Nightwish".... gothrock??? I think someone is "having some problems with the definition of what gothic rock is."

What exactly is the reason to exclude Orkus? It claims to be Gothic Romantic Industrial Electro We have no standards and we apply them willy nilly. we should just delete ALL these magazines and say there is no gothrock magazines anymore or else include them and say that gothrock is covered under the broader envelope of the entire goth subculture.TheDarknessVisible 21:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Orkus is no goth music magazine. Its a magazine for different kinds of music and different subcultures. You'll find genres such as elektro, power noise, goa trance, ambient, metal, synthpop etc. It's mainly a music magazine of the dark culture, in Germany called Schwarze Szene. --~Menorrhea 13:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I took Orkus off once again. Two against one is a majority. -Crescentia

Jim Morrison and David Bowie

according to pete scathe's webpage the term "gothic rock" was first applied to Jim Morrison. David Bowie apparently called his music gothic in 1974 (I think I found that in the gothic bible. . but perhaps on pete scathe's page also). shouldn't this be in the article somehow? TheDarknessVisible 17:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really, because there's a distinction between using "gothic rock" as a adjective and as a noun. Even many articles on early goth bands used "gothic" more as an adjective; looking at my collection of NME reprint articles on goth it begins to be used as a noun (meaning to name a disinct genre) around 1985. WesleyDodds 09:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems, that "Gothic" as a genre term came in same time popular like the term Darkwave. In Germany, all of these gothic rock bands were called Dark Wave until the early 1990s. After that we used the term Gothic Rock. But in the Germany of today, Gothic Rock is unfortunately a dead genre since the end of the 1990s... displaced by Metal music and cyber-kiddies. --~Menorrhea 04:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The Doors were the first band ever referred to as “gothic rock”. I’ve added that into the article now with a source. I don’t think it can be argued that they’re actually a gothic rock band in the same sense that Siouxsie & the Banshees or Bauhaus are but its an important piece of information and they are certainly one of the largest influences on the genre.

The exact quote on the Doors from 1967 by John Stickney was; “FOUR DOORS TO THE FUTURE: GOTHIC ROCK IS THEIR THING”[6]

- Daddy Kindsoul 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Neogoth and Electrogoth are nominated for deletion

If you have any information on these articles (Neogoth or Electrogoth) or topics, please go to their respective pages join in the deletion discussion, or help to improve the articles.TheDarknessVisible 22:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Pre-history

I've started to turn the "historic influences" part into a pre-history, rather than it just having bullet point artists. At this point, I've got as far as Bowie and quite a bit more of the influences needs adding, particually...

• Lou Reed - Transformer (produced by Bowie) & Berlin
• Iggy Pop - The Idiot (produced by Bowie)
• punk rock movement (particually mentioning The Damned, Siouxsie & the Banshees & UK Decay's roots in that)
• Joy Division
• Psychedelic Furs (on Sisters and mid-80s gothic rock) - Daddy Kindsoul 13:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

good work. --~Menorrhea 12:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Not Including Gothic Metal In Related Genres

I don't think Gothic Metal belongs in the related genres section for the simple fact that it has nothing to do with Gothic Rock. In fact back in the 80's, when Gothic Rock was at its peak, metal fans could not stand people who listened to Gothic Rock, or Gothic Rock itself. I was there, so I remember the constant problems between the two different groups of people. To include it would ignore the constant animosity that metal fans had for Gothic Rock fans and bands. If a couple of musicians in the Gothic Metal genre say that they were influenced by one or two Gothic Rock bands does not mean that the two genres are related.-Crescentia

Are you talking about subcultures or music scenes? Both are different things. The problem is that you don't know the developments of the 1990s. My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost and Tiamat were not really Doom/Death bands. They were Doom/Death/Gothic bands with a strong influence of end-1980s gothic rock such as Fields of the Nephilim. In the 1990s, Paradise Lost released the album "Gothic". In those days, Paradise Lost were fans of The Sisters of Mercy (i'll scan the interviews, but it's in german language). Since 1993 german gothic rock bands such as Dreadful Shadows, Secret Discovery, Love Like Blood, Sepulcrum Mentis etc. started to blend their gothic rock sound with metal guitars. Dreadful Shadows are one of the first gothic metal bands in germany, founded in 1993. I don't like the gothic metal music, but it's a fact that gothic metal is a mixture of metal and gothic rock. --~Menorrhea 12:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

But the issue is this.... Are such relationships bi-directional? This is an article on Gothic Rock.. not on Gothic Metal. And while gothic metal some has sylistic origins inside gothic rock, does this cause gothic rock to have a relationship towards a kind of music that didn't even exist at the time gothic rock became what it is. Gothic Rock was NOT influenced by gothic metal. So while gothic metal may be related to gothic rock, gothic rock is NOT related to gothic metal. And this "related genres" section should only be about styles that Gothic Rock is related to. How many gothic rock bands were ever gothic metal bands? When gothic metal bands start making gothrock and influencing other gothrock bands, then I would say gothic metal has developed a relationship. Until then gothrock is not related to gothic metal.

We could go and stick "futurepop" as a related genre to baroque classical music under this kindof backwards relationship model. However every music historian will tell you, notwithstanding how many futurepop bands steal from baroque, baroque is unrelated to futurepop. TheDarknessVisible 16:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The complete gothic rock bands of the 1990s are metal-related. Angina Pectoris, Fields of the Nephilim, The Sisters of Mercy, etc. Today you can't find any gothic rock group without metal sounds. The pure gothic rock genre died in the early 1990s. And yes, it's a "bi-directional relationship" since the middle of the 1990s. German bands such Lacrimosa used speed metal elements and co-operated with the thrash metal band Kreator, Das Ich released the hit "Die Liebe" in co-operation with the death metal/power metal group Atrocity etc. In Europe there are no limits between the "modern" gothic rock scene and the gothic metal culture. Here, it is a big fat blend. --~Menorrhea 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)