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Discrimination

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. The current article looks nothing like the stub created by the banned sock, so G5 is no longer relevant. Similarly, once editors in good standing voiced their opinion on an AfD, it no longer qualifies for a procedural close just because a banned sock was the nominator.

As for the substantive issues, I see some support that the title is inappropriate. That is not a valid deletion criterion, and can easily be fixed now that the AfD is closed. Please discuss alternate titles on the Talk page.

There were several valid arguments for deletion, including that the bundling of domestic and international genocides is potentially WP:SYNTH, and that most of the content is already covered by other articles. There was some support to the claim that this article is little more than a glorified category. However, I see a rough consensus here that the topic does not inherently fail WP:NLIST. Content can be cleaned up to avoid any SYNTH or duplication, and the title can be modified. Owen× ☎ 22:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of genocides committed by the United States

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The article should be deleted because the author is a sockpuppet NotSoTough (talk) 17:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete per WP:G5.4meter4 (talk) 19:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Discrimination, History, Lists, and United States of America. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete - WP:G5. Also this is just a linking of various existing Wikipedia articles on select conflicts. The 2003 American Indian Wars covers the same issue, but is a much better coverage. It's not something that lends itself to a simple list. — Maile (talk) 21:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - All of the examples listed are examples of genocide/attempts of ethnic cleansing committed by the United States. The fact that it was created by a sockpuppet should be irrelevant; many articles have been created by sockpuppets.ApolloPhoebus (talk) 23:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, if not protect - WP:G5, to my knowledge at least, only applies to articles made by users in defiance of their ban, so it wouldn't apply here. However, this list serves little purpose, as everything it mentions is covered better elsewhere, and in its current unprotected state, could easily become a WP:SOAPBOX.

Heck, in its initial state, it included black genocide, trans genocide, and workers genocide (an article the sock was drafting at the time), hence why the WP:NPOV tag was added (before getting removed by the commenter above me).

~~If it isn't deleted, it should at the very least be WP:BLUE LOCKed and actually converted to a list.~~ ZionniThePeruser (talk) 23:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Asserting that the article "serves little purpose" is a WP:USELESS argument; the content is clearly encyclopedic material, as the United States has verifiably committed several genocides. This list is just that; a list of genocides that the US has committed. Yes, things can be better covered elsewhere, but the purpose of this list is navigation; this list's removal would damage a reader's ability to navigate between those genocides. I do agree that the article should be protected, however, as it is clearly a contentious topic and prone to biased edits and sockpuppetry. ApolloPhoebus (talk) 23:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very curious how a new account, just created a few days ago, stumbled upon this deletion discussion and that WP:USELESS essay. Esolo5002 (talk) 05:45, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That seems irrelevant to me. You need to assess what is said rather than who said it and how much seniority they have. Athel cb (talk) 10:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Don't know about the situation of the article creator. However, the topic seems to be a reasonable aid to navigation. The list could / should be significantly improved, but I don't see why it would be deleted. Shazback (talk) 00:48, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the sockpuppet investigation for reference: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/KlayCax ZionniThePeruser (talk) 01:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This is an interesting one. This was most certainly created by a sockpuppet with an axe to grind. But it does seem like a reasonable navigational tool. Maybe move to Accusations of genocide by the United States for WP:NPOV concerns? Also noteworthy is that List of genocides committed by the Soviet Union was also created in direct response to this. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I strongly oppose speedy deletion. Esolo5002 (talk) 05:40, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps said article should've been included in this AfD, considering they're both so similar in content and format. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 07:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I'm bewildered by this nomination. It's an important page and useful navigational tool. It can be improved, but there is no reason to delete it. There have been several contributors to the page. The vast majority of contributions did not come from sockpuppet accounts. Firecat93 (talk) 09:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps ironically, NotSoTough, the user that nominated the page for deletion, has been confirmed to be a sockpuppet account!

This account has been confirmed by a CheckUser as a sockpuppet of BaharatlıCheetos2.0 (talk · contribs · logs), and has been blocked indefinitely. Firecat93 (talk) 09:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Doesn't matter who created the topic, its a valid list article. Category:Native American genocide exist, and a list is more helpful than a category, allowing more information to be shown. Could add rows to list information such as year that it happened, number killed, etc. Dream Focus 10:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree with Dream Focus, Shazback and ApolloPhoebus that there is no valid reason to delete this article. Whether one likes it or not it is well worthy of including in Wikipedia. Athel cb (talk) 10:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep would be very useful (though probably needs to be developed or made into a disambiguation), made by a socketpuppet or not. Mason7512 (talk) 15:59, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This list article is perfectly fine; it should be kept and maintained. Even when article creators are malicious users, if the topics are substantiated topics, they shouldn't be deleted without more thorough reasoning. --Bhjbggoonnv (talk) 04:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request that we remove 'nominated for deletion' AfD from top of article The individual who initially nominated this article for deletion is ironically also a sockpuppet. No content-relevant reasoning has been provided for deletion. There is no need for the template at the top to remain. --Bhjbggoonnv (talk) 04:44, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It will be removed once the discussion is closed. Firecat93 (talk) 06:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - It currently serves no purpose other than being an article that should be made into a category. Another editor pointed out that Native American genocide in the United States exists but the difference between these two articles is that one (the native american article) has content and the other (this one in question) is only a list of entries. Now if it was made into a table, had citations to go along with it, and explanations about it than it would be a different story. The lack of sources also doesn't help WP:GNG even though it should be on Wikipedia, the lack of sources doesn't help notability. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 16:12, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete this is a glorified category. Could be something more at this title, but as is there is nothing here to save. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The title is completely misleading. There is still debate about whether actions against Native Americans constitute a genocide, while the other entries are genocides committed by others, with alleged complicity by the US. There is not really anything that has been fully confirmed as such, despite what the title implies. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In general, it is widely considered that there were a genocide against Native Americas, in the several pages about the topic in wikipedia this is pretty well documented. For other cases abroad there are also other pages in Wikipedia reporting at least a reasonable basis for that consideration (the International War Crimes Tribunal is a good example). An this is even not considering sources outside of Wikipedia, as I commented even the Holocaust Houston Museum has a topic about it. Even there is apage about the Denial of genocides of Indigenous peoples. AyubuZimbale (talk) 15:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This article if wanted as reasonable aid to navigation should be converted into a category - and pretty much per cowboygilbert The AP (talk) 05:42, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it is informative and it is collecting relevant historical articles in wikipedia. Although the page is incomplete and further work is needed. There is a relevant number of sources about the topic, for example Holocaust Huston Museum , or this article. In principle the disagreement was in the definition of genocide however with the current definition given in UN, it seems that there is no question about the genocide of Native Americans both in North America and South America. AyubuZimbale (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Too subjective. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 03:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is quite objective. Other question would be the best way to proceed: category or this page. But I note that there are pages of other countries not marked for deletion which seems to be quite inconsistent. AyubuZimbale (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. If we could table the contentious nature of this article and focus on policy reasons for Keeping or Deleting this article. Although it has become more than a list, does it meet WP:NLIST? It is now sourced, what is the quality of the sources in supporting the claims of genocide? Is this article a duplicate of another list? Issues like a possible rename of this article can be discussed if this article is Kept.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete - material seems fine, even if created by sockpuppet. Main issue is that the grouping of domestic genocides and international complicity in genocides seems like a WP:synth, not sure there are sourcing that combines all in one list outside of wikipedia. the International complicity in genocides could be split into a separate article, maybe, if there are sources that talk about all the international genocides the US is accused of being complicit in. The domestic genocides are mostly captured by Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

going off of Liz's suggestion, not sure all genocides US was ever complicit in is regularly combined and talked about like this... maybe United_States_war_crimes for international complicity, but these generally aren't grouped like this in sourcing. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as, at the very least, the domestic entries easily meet the WP:NLIST criteria. Simonm223 (talk) 10:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—I think an article/list that discusses atrocity crimes committed by the United States would be useful (see Atrocity crimes during the Russo-Ukrainian War or Atrocities in the Congo Free State, so perhaps something like "Atrocity crimes committed by the United States" or "Atrocities committed by the United States"). This article covers several such crimes, and "atrocity crime"/"atrocity" might better encompass complicity in genocide, war crimes, and ecocide as discussed in this article. Whether or not the name and scope of this article should be changed or a new article should be created—I don't know. But I think something of this article should be preserved. Spookyaki (talk) 13:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support rescoping / renaming of article to Atrocity crimes committed by the United States; same goes for the sister article. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for the reasons mentioned already. On Liz's point, I do believe there's worth in taking what List of genocides does with tables, which allows for a much more easily display sourced verifibility, as well as greatly reducing prospects of coatrack cruft. Bejakyo (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: As highlighted by others there are issues of redundancy due to what little this article provides already being addressed in much greater detail in multiple other articles, such as the Genocides in history series of articles and Native American genocide in the United States. The sources people have brought so far to this discussion showing RS supporting the topic, don't actually support the scope of this article, as they specifically refer to US genocides against Native Americans, which is already well covered in the afore-linked article. To those who point to WP:NLIST, again they also specify the "domestic" cases, which are all genocides against Native Americans, and so once again, covered by the afore-linked article. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Discrimination Proposed deletions

The following articles have been tagged for proposed deletion:

@@ Line 7: / Line 7: @@
 <!-- New AfDs should be add to the top of the list, directly below this line -->
 {{Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_genocides_committed_by_the_United_States}}
-{{Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Victorian_bias_in_the_Australian_Football_League}}
 ==Discrimination Proposed deletions==