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::here is the raw plane telemetry.
::here is the raw plane telemetry.
::https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218/history/20241208/0202Z [[User:Scoaldr|Scoaldr]] ([[User talk:Scoaldr|talk]]) 08:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
::https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218/history/20241208/0202Z [[User:Scoaldr|Scoaldr]] ([[User talk:Scoaldr|talk]]) 08:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
:The data shows that the plane did NOT crash. https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218 Do you know of any objects which slow down when they fall from the sky? That is a clear controlled descent. The plane even gained altitude again at one point. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:1810:4F0B:500:7791:C6EF:E1E4:5282|2A02:1810:4F0B:500:7791:C6EF:E1E4:5282]] ([[User talk:2A02:1810:4F0B:500:7791:C6EF:E1E4:5282|talk]]) 11:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)


== Intro update ==
== Intro update ==

Revision as of 11:33, 8 December 2024


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is he a politician???

Why is this dictator even called "politician"? Was he elected? Was the election free and fair? Dear wikipedia, why don't you refer hitler, stalin or mao as a "politician"? I mean the "d-word" is so rude... 92.249.214.251 (talk) 13:03, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

his dad was made leader by a military coup and since bashar came to power if you talked ONE WORD bad about him, your children will get poisoned and you will never see their face again, and you would be killed or forced in the army. 2001:1970:55E8:7F00:60F6:D4AD:9672:10DE (talk) 19:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These are the opening sentence of the Wikipedia articles on Hitler, Stalin and Mao:
"Adolf Hitler (German: [ˈaːdɔlf ˈhɪtlɐ] ⓘ; 20 April 1889 – 30 April 1945) was an Austrian-born German politician..."
Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili; 18 December [O.S. 6 December] 1878 – 5 March 1953) was a Soviet politician..."
Mao Zedong (26 December 1893 – 9 September 1976) was a Chinese politician..."
What's your point? DeCausa (talk) 20:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, those three were in politics, before becoming dictators and Bashar inhereted presidency from his father. Imperator159 (talk) 10:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Surname?

What to call this man - I had assumed that his surname would be "al-Assad", but many others seem to disagree with me.

  • al-Assad is used here (but mostly in the citations) - -

"Al-Assad: Enemies of Syria 'will go to hell'". CNN.
...President al-Assad gave...
Al-Assad family
"Throughout the speech, al-Assad remained faithful..."
...loyal to the al-Assad family.

  • Assad is frequently used throughout this article - - -

The Assad regime...
...after Assad assumed power...
...elite of the Assad family...
...the Assad government...

  • President Assad has a few entries (but no President al-Assad) - - -

President Assad also...
...President Assad step aside...
President Assad also told...

  • A few places use the whole name, Bashar al-Assad - - -

..Bashar al-Assad's core support...
Bashar al-Assad declared...
Bashar al-Assad held a meeting...

  • Then there is the naked Bashar contingent - - -

Bashar graduated...
Bashar later stated...
Bashar had few...
...which was Bashar's age...

So, what should this guy be called -

  • Bashar al-Assad;
  • al-Assad;
  • President al-Assad;
  • President Assad;
  • but surely not Bashar?

Is there a consensus?

Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 20:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His father’s name is Hafez.

Bashar’s father’s name is “Hafez” and not “Hafiz” as is printed on this site 2A02:AA7:4103:8767:50EE:4E1:FC17:3FFB (talk) 10:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Responsible for 90% of deaths

this is conjecture and unverifiable. A UK based source when the UK and its allies supporters the anti assad movement. Can't be relied upon and is an unnecessary addition of information..I'm sure the number of deaths alone is sufficient rather than attributing blame(which is unverifiable) 2A04:4A43:4C3F:D0F7:0:0:29D8:CD07 (talk) 04:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree, but unfortunately sources considered reliable by Wikipedia parrot the SNHR's figures so we have no point but to operate within those constraints.
Their methodology is flawed:
https://snhr.org/public_html/wp-content/pdf/english/SNHR_Methodology_en.pdf

Cases of uncertainty in deciding whether an individual is classified as a civilian or a combatant: In case of the absence of conclusive evidence of the victim’s status and of resulting uncertainty over his/her classification as a civilian or a combatant, we register him/her as a civilian.

Skornezy (talk) 02:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fear not, you two. Now that the government has been overthrown, and secret regime archives will be opened, we will be able to know the full extent of horrors the Assad regime has committed over 13 years - from their own data. --Dynamo128 (talk) 01:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word "dictator" in the lead

I noticed that the word "dictator" to characterize him is often placed in the introduction and then removed. What consensus could we have? Should we put it or is it not necessary? FaChol (talk) 23:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no doubt that he is a dictator, this is not the question I am asking. I am asking if a consensus can be reached on whether or not to write that in the introduction. For example, Putin is characterized as a "Russian politician and former intelligence officer". Should the word "dictator" also be included on his article? FaChol (talk) 23:12, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be interested to hear people's arguments for inclusion, otherwise I think it should be removed. We don't tend to use "dictator" elsewhere in wikivoice, and it seems a recent introduction (or vandalism) to this article. We don't describe Hafez al-Assad as a dictator. GhostOfNoMan 22:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the lead already mentions the characterisation of Assad, by academics and others, as a dictator, or of his regime as authoritarian. That's preferable to "politician and dictator" as the opening sentence. GhostOfNoMan 22:57, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I say no because pages for multiple other dictators do not have the word "dictator" in the introduction. See Putin, Saddam, Gaddafi, Castro, etc. Setarip (talk) 18:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The wiki pages Kim Jong Un and Xi Jinping does not use the word 'dictator' as the introductory of a person must be adhered to the official status not the description so the word 'dictator' should not be used in the Assad page. Mhaot (talk) 08:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Murderer category

Should we keep the Category of Mass murderers for him? 2600:100C:A218:9A7B:BC5E:E0AD:C8F9:553 (talk) 15:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

End of term ?

Haven't seen a source saying he is "officially" overthrown. There is still, somehow, a state. Saddam Hussein's wiki page lists his departure as president as April 9th, the day Baghdad was captured/liberated. Damascus hasn't been captured yet. Remikipedia (talk) 02:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Someone is spamming 167.142.48.84 (talk) 02:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. That December 8, 2024 end of term needs a citation or it needs to be reverted. Mosi Nuru (talk) 02:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As of half an hour ago Damascus has been captured. 128.114.255.198 (talk) 03:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great, provide a citation. Mosi Nuru (talk) 03:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mosi Nuru
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-homs-latest-damascus-rebels-1.7404449
https://apnews.com/article/syria-assad-sweida-daraa-homs-hts-qatar-7f65823bbf0a7bd331109e8dff419430
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czxdd2r2191o
https://aje.io/pq3n3i?update=3371087 SatelliteOrbit (talk | contribs) 03:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/syria-rebels-celebrate-captured-homs-set-sights-damascus-2024-12-07/ OnHereAlot (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From a cursory glance at these sources, I don't see anything saying his term has ended or he's resigned. The fact that a head of state travels outside the city limits of his/her capital city does not mean he/she ceases to be head of state. Chetsford (talk) 03:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://x.com/Alhadath_Brk/status/1865587913817305454
both rebel and govt military leaders are declaring the end of the regime. might not be enough to edit yet, but we definitely don't need to wait for Assad himself to say something or "resign" when he's been deposed. 71.183.73.183 (talk) 03:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mosi Nuru
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syrian-insurgents-suburbs-of-damascus/
https://abcnews.go.com/International/syrian-rebels-claimed-4-cities-24-hours-now/story?id=116562929
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/07/syria-rebels-have-reached-damascus-suburbs-insurgent-commander-says
consensus among sources that assad is out of syria, syrian govt denies assad has fled syria, and that Damascus is in rebel hands SatelliteOrbit (talk | contribs) 03:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Syrian prime minister went on a speech to announce that the regime is officially downhttps://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/syria-civil-war-damascus/card/syrian-prime-minister-ready-to-cooperate-gG7okAui3MTS7vJA6oHR RayCh716 (talk) 03:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As of 10:30 UTC on the 8th: Syrian rebels declared President Bashar al-Assad's ouster after seizing control of Damascus on Sunday, ending his family's iron-fisted rule after more than 13 years of civil war in a seismic moment for the Middle East. (...) Syria's army command notified officers on Sunday that Assad's rule had ended, a Syrian officer who was informed of the move told Reuters. But the Syrian army later said it was continuing operations against "terrorist groups" in the key cities of Hama and Homs and in Deraa countryside.
(I will say that this article did move too fast for sure and still might be moving too fast.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

I have applied a six-hour WP:BLUELOCK to this article due to several disruptive edits and the apparent occurrence of off-WP coordination in furtherance of that disruption. During this period, non-EC editors can request edits using WP:EDITREQUEST. Chetsford (talk) 03:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

what evidence do you have of this? Cannolorosa (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are so many edits happening because of the situation in Syria, I know someone wrote his plane had crashed which has not been reported. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's new reportage, only one outlet that doesn't look kinda sketch though. Odds are Reuters will print the allegations soon.
Report I mentioned from Sri Lanka Guardian:
https://slguardian.org/breaking-plane-allegedly-carrying-syrian-president-assad-crashes/ Diogenes Redivivus (talk) 05:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2024

Change

... who served as the president of Syria since 2000

to:

... who has served as the president of Syria since 2000

TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 03:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should we change this to past tense

It seems that the Syrian regime has fallen, and there are reports that he has left the nation. Do you think we should change this to past tense. IdahoanLover (talk) 03:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/syria-rebels-celebrate-captured-homs-set-sights-damascus-2024-12-07/
By all accounts the regime has ended. This would be most appropriate. 2806:290:881F:A7AC:E9FA:B5D:B0DD:3810 (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He died

Plane shot down by Israelis 67.85.200.219 (talk) 03:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence to suggest this OnHereAlot (talk) 03:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
theres a few, although its light. Not sure about isreali forces its more likely opposition forces as it was in their air space. A plane from damascus was shot down, it is government owned. 2600:1700:F0:3DF0:3A3E:F11A:C85B:B70 (talk) 03:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
he is dead, no need to gatekeep this information anymore, as you left-wing assets always do. it's over, you lost 81.5.196.51 (talk) 10:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even though it could be possible that he was on that plane, there is no evidence that the Israelis shot him down. LycheeDragonLoverBACKUP (talk) 03:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the source of this information? FaChol (talk) 04:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we could use this for the plane crash, reliable and independent periodical: https://slguardian.org/breaking-plane-allegedly-carrying-syrian-president-assad-crashes/
not regional news source but still more reliable than twitter/x Diogenes Redivivus (talk) 05:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218 Scoaldr (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assad's Possible Death

A plane from damascus was shot down near lebanon, its said to be assad. Look into this

https://x.com/aja_syria/status/1865593628544155774 2600:1700:F0:3DF0:3A3E:F11A:C85B:B70 (talk) 03:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Until reliable sources report on this, we can't add it to the article. Gelasin (talk) 03:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this could maybe work as a source for now: https://slguardian.org/breaking-plane-allegedly-carrying-syrian-president-assad-crashes/
Sri Lanka Guardian seems decently reliable. Just phrase as "there were unconfirmed reports of a plane carrying Assad being shot down in Syrian airspace" or something? Diogenes Redivivus (talk) 05:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should wait for a consensus of outlets to report something. Not put information because one source put out news on it. TheFellaVB (talk) 06:44, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
here is the raw plane telemetry.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218/history/20241208/0202Z Scoaldr (talk) 08:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The data shows that the plane did NOT crash. https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218 Do you know of any objects which slow down when they fall from the sky? That is a clear controlled descent. The plane even gained altitude again at one point. 2A02:1810:4F0B:500:7791:C6EF:E1E4:5282 (talk) 11:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Intro update

At the very least the intro should describe the collapse of his rule over the last two weeks more than just saying rebels launched an offensive. john k (talk) 03:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Agreed, but a lot of stuff has been developing very quickly in this situation. I don’t think it will be long until we have proper sources. LycheeDragonLoverBACKUP (talk) 03:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

I have added a WP:SILVERLOCK to the Talk page for this article for six hours due to a fast-moving series of violations of our WP:BLP policy by IP editors. The BLP policy applies equally to Talk pages as mainspace. Any other Administrator should feel free to lift this protection at any time if they feel it's no longer necessary, or was never necessary in the first place. Chetsford (talk) 03:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Should we make an article on the remnants of the Ba'ath Syria, and the remaining army in Latakia? PopularGames (talk) 04:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lede should be changed

He's been deposed. He has vanished. So, can he really be called Field Marshall still?Dogru144 (talk) 04:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He left syria probably by fleeing
https://apnews.com/article/syria-assad-sweida-daraa-homs-hts-qatar-7f65823bbf0a7bd331109e8dff419430 Wikiwaki6969 (talk) 05:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Afaik rank doesn't usually get stripped automatically for cowardice. I could see in future days a transitional government demoting him either in absentia or posthumously but for the moment it should probably stay as is. Maybe update for leaving the state, though. Diogenes Redivivus (talk) 05:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please add new section

add section of bashar al assad regime ending. He has fleed from syria facing rebels today. Rebels was for 11 days. After 11 days. Al assad has fleed to Iraq today. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/syria-rebels-celebrate-captured-homs-set-sights-damascus-2024-12-07/ Wikiwaki6969 (talk) 05:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. The PM declared ready to hand reins of government. This page currently is totally obsolete. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/syrian-troops-withdraw-south-country-rush-defend-homs-116552588 Dogru144 (talk) 05:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cannot get more obvious than this: Reuters, 11:46 pm 12/7/24 EST 'Syrian army command tells officers that Assad's rule has ended, officer says' https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/syria-rebels-celebrate-captured-homs-set-sights-damascus-2024-12-07/Dogru144 (talk) 05:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Prime Minister: Ready to cooperate for a new government: Wall Street Journal 'Syrian Prime Minister: Ready to Cooperate' https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/syria-civil-war-damascus/card/syrian-prime-minister-ready-to-cooperate-gG7okAui3MTS7vJA6oHR Assad's authority is null. The above references should make this obvious. Dogru144 (talk) 05:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

al-Assad is dead from a plane crash???

So there's multiple reports from citations saying that former President Bashar Al-Assad has died from a plane crash. (Google search). They're, unsurprisingly, unconfirmed reports and maybe (likely) unreliable but I'm not gonna let this slide. What do others think of this? (Also, here's the Wikipedia article for the plane crash al-Assad was probably on). Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 05:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is just speculation. Until we hear that the plane crashed or confirmation that he has been found dead, we should let this topic rest.Dogru144 (talk) 07:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's Source policy is fairly clear on this, a major paper has to report on it before we do anything, but I watched the telemetry of the Plane as it went down. He is super dead. Scoaldr (talk) 07:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
here is the flight data.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218 Scoaldr (talk) 07:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until major outlets like BBC News, New York Times start reporting the possible crash. RealStranger43286 (talk) 08:44, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The data shows that the plane did NOT crash. https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218 Do you know of any objects which slow down when they fall from the sky? That is a clear controlled descent. The plane even gained altitude again at one point. 2A02:1810:4F0B:500:7791:C6EF:E1E4:5282 (talk) 11:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Linking the start of the offensive to Assad's rejection of an Erdoğan diplomatic initiative

The section on the 2024 offensive could benefit from adding context that links the start of the offensive to Al-Assad's rejection of a diplomatic initiative from Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. References are:

(1) https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-erdogan-backs-rebel-offensive-syria

(2) https://www.politico.eu/article/tayyip-erdogan-aleppo-abbas-araghchi-hts-lebanon-hezbollah-syria-bashar-assad-forces-aleppo/

(3) https://thesoufancenter.org/intelbrief-2024-december-2/

Suggested text:

Planning by anti-Assad forces for an offensive against Aleppo began in late 2023 but were delayed by Turkish objections.(2, 3) Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan sought negotiations with the al-Assad government, to "determine Syria’s future together," but received a negative response.(1) Turkey lifted its objections and the anti-Assad forces began what started as a limited offensive against the Aleppo countryside on 27 November 2023.(1, 3 and the [2024 Syrian opposition offensives] article) ScottWade56 (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is he still the President?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/07/middleeast/syria-rebels-homs-damascus-assad-intl/index.html

It looks like he might have been deposed. I'm not 100% sure, but I think he might be the former President (?) Luna <3 (She/Her) (talk) 06:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As of now, sources still refer to Assad as president.
I don't think there's any reason to rush changing the article. Let's wait what happens in the next few days. Cortador (talk) 06:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
His prime minister is explicitly speaking of handing over the reins of government. Assad's return from oblivion looks extremely unlikely at this point.Dogru144 (talk) 07:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He just died

I need to sleep and can't fix it, but someone has to change all the is to was and add a death section.

He was on a plane that was shot down. Confirmed by live telemetry from the plane. Scoaldr (talk) 07:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you source it? David O. Johnson (talk) 07:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Live feed from a plane telemetry tracker that was taking off from Damascus. No confirmation he was on it, but he was on it. He dead. Scoaldr (talk) 07:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done If there is no confirmation he was on it, then the chance exist he was not on it and is alive. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Scoaldr Lmfao the confidence is commendable. I think you're right btw. He's dead. There's a high chance. Alexysun (talk) 09:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218
That's not an airfield. Scoaldr (talk) 07:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yet still not a single video of the aftermath of the supposed crash. It was just flying low and went out of ADS-B coverage. This plane did not crash as far as my conjecture goes. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 08:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The data shows that the plane did NOT crash. https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/SYR9218 Do you know of any objects which slow down when they fall from the sky? That is a clear controlled descent. The plane even gained altitude again at one point. 2A02:1810:4F0B:500:7791:C6EF:E1E4:5282 (talk) 10:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it’s safe to say this is all hazy at best and all edits should be paused until a consensus on what has happened has been reached by reliable sources. Me.Autem.Minui (talk) 11:32, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bashar the dictator in the first sentence

Notifying editors who were involved in the related discussion recently. @FaChol @GhostOfNoMan @Setarip @Mhaot

Some editors pointed out that other dictators like Putin, Saddam, Gaddafi, Kim Jong Un, etc. do not have "dictator" in the first sentence of the lead. I'd like to mention some points:

  • Unlike the dictators mentioned above, Bashar al-Asad was a dictator who he has been overthrown by the Syrians and unanimously disgraced across the world. And that too without any lethal military intervention by a foreign state against his regime. (Gaddafi was overthrown by the Libyan people; but NATO also intervened against his regime)
  • Apart from that, Bashar's regime had no independence was a totally a puppet regime propped up by Russian and Iranian states which occupied Syria. Bashar was even more of a puppet than Benito Mussolini during the latter's reign as the dictator of Italian Social Republic! Syrians rose up to oust a puppet propped up and imposed by Khomeinist Iranian and Putinist Russian imperial states.
  • Additionally, Bashar was the most savage, ruthless and blood-soaked dictator of his generation and operated a dynastic dictatorship. His violent regime was the most repressive tyranny of his generation and is also literally described in the academia as "Jamlukiyya" (an Arabic word which combines "al-Jamhuriyya" (trans: "Republic") and "al-Mamlaka" (trans: "Kingdom")
  • Lastly, Bashar is today publicly viewed across the world as a symbol of dictatorship, tyranny, totalitarianism, repression, purges and mass-murder. All these points, (and others) make Bashar part of a megalomaniac class of despots associated with tyranny and cruelty throughout history. (such as Vlad the Impaler, Ivan the Terrible, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Idi Amin, etc.)

I am also interested to know about the opinions of history-focused editors Bobfrombrockley, Cinderella157 and Skitash. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 09:38, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead section length is fine tbh.

Not sure who put the "This article's lead section may be too long." tag but I disagree. The lead section length is fine. Alexysun (talk) 10:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, leads should be limited to 4 or 5 paragraphs maximum for readability. Having to scroll down just to read the lead defeats the point of a lead. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 11:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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