Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Louis Mangione

Louis Mangione

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Louis Mangione (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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I fail to see the notability of the father of the shooter in the Brian Thompson killing. Being the father alone does not grant such notability, and the enterprises Louis Mangione is head of were also created the same time and day this article was, by the same user. The known for is also a bit egregious, "known for being the heir to the Mangione family fortune". I don't think much of anyone before two days ago even knew the Mangione family fortune existed. Réunion! 08:29, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep It is irrelevant who created the article, why, or when. What matters is whether the subject is notable and whether there are reliable sources attesting to that. Based on that argument, you could have also nominated Nicholas Mangione for deletion, but you opted not to. Prior to recent events, Louis Mangione was mentioned by the Baltimore Sun here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here and by the Washington Post here, here, here, here, here, and here. He served as Vice President of Mangione Family Enterprises for decades and is now the head of the Mangione family fortune. All of that demonstrates his notability in the local business community. His son's recent actions simply shine further coverage on the family, which has been covered amply by the Baltimore and Washington, D.C. press for decades. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and Maryland. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:41, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep per Bohemian Baltimore.-🐦DrWho42👻 10:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep Why delete information? 2600:1702:540:6BF0:4403:38E5:2AA8:F46C (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Because WP:NOTEVERYTHING Geschichte (talk) 10:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete I went through every single one of Bohemian Baltimore's sources, and not a one of them is about Mangione; they are all about real-estate controversies loosely involving a Mangione property, with one or two brief quotes from Mangione sprinkled in. As for the references in the article, references 2 and 8 are the only ones I'd consider SIGCOV, and they are only talking about this individual in the context of the shooting. The article is a hybrid WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTINHERITED violation. Clearly this individual is not notable beyond the events of the past week. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 12:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  @WeirdNAnnoyed - Wikipedia:Notability says that "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 12:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete: So he's a buisnessman with a son that says he did bad things, not proven in court yet. If this was brought up to AfD six months ago, we'd delete it. Same reasoning applies, his business enterprise is not notable, he's only being talked about because of his son. Oaktree b (talk) 15:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete, per the analysis by WeirdNAnnoyed and my own at the sources, which do not include significant coverage. Esolo5002 (talk) 16:56, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment — It is irrelevant who created the article, why, or when. I'd say when the article was created is critical here. When other editors invoke "the sum total of human knowledge" in reference to this project and I poke holes in their arguments large enough to drive a 747 through, there's a reason why it's met with denial and suppression. There's far more to "the sum total of human knowledge" than parroting the agenda of the legacy media and writing about little else. If BB's laundry list of sources going back decades really meant anything, then I shouldn't be looking at an article that's only about 12 hours old. Wikipedia repeatedly shows its lack of credibility by newly creating biographies as a reaction to the subject's death, when the real world saw the person as notable decades ago. In addition to the WP:WHATEVER invoked by WeirdNAnnoyed above, there's also WP:COATRACK. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 18:52, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Delete per WeirdNAnnoyed. I also did my own research on Newspapers.com to see if there were any articles from The Baltimore Sun about Mangione himself, as there were about his father, and could only find articles about his proposed real-estate developments, in which he is mentioned one or two times and not as the primary subject. Y2hyaXM (talk) 21:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

KEEP. The only reason the family or family friend has requested deletion is because they’re worried about their reputation. The public should know about anyone running a “family enterprise” …especially when their ultra-privileged offspring murders a man who came from a rural, working-class family and worked for over 20 years to make CEO with a bachelors degree from a state school. If that isn’t ironic enough, the CEO made far less money than his own parents. There is a nation-wide conversation about wealth right now, and the Mangione’s shouldn't get to opt out. 2600:1008:B218:2C3F:F0FA:33BB:D96D:23E5 (talk) 04:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Correction: Mangiones 2600:1008:B218:2C3F:F0FA:33BB:D96D:23E5 (talk) 04:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

That man wasn't known a week ago, and appears to have a rather ho-hum business career, that's not quite notable for here. Oaktree b (talk) 05:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Comment I find it funny how here I'm accused of being related to the Mangiones. I have absolutely no relation to him, nor do I know any of his family. He is simply not relevant enough to be on the site, as users WeirdNAnnoyed and RadioKAOS have articulated far better than I can. Réunion! 05:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

KEEP: Well, he just hired a posh, well-known NY attorney to represent his son who murdered someone. I say he’s about to be more notable than he was before. Perhaps we should give it a few weeks. 108.160.192.62 (talk) 05:31, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep as per Bohemian Baltimore. He clearly has has significant coverage. However, there is precedent from 2007 that this article could still be deleted to protect individuals only tangentially connected with a major crime; the subject made a direct appeal to Jimbo Wales, and then not only was the article deleted and salted, but the two AfDS were memory holed. Bearian (talk) 03:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per Oaktree b. This likely fails notability. Especially as most, if not all notability, is because of Luigi - not Louis or his career. Synorem (talk) 11:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete. E_F⁵ 15:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep, several reliable sources cover Louis. Senior Captain Thrawn (talk) 18:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep per Bohemian Baltimore, he's notable for reasons other than his son killing some big CEO. KmartEmployeeTor (talk) 19:34, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep Idek mann (talk) 20:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep I was on the fence about this one, but as time goes on there are more sources being added that support his relevancy outside of his son.Thief-River-Faller (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• delete Yes, there are reliable sources, and what they reliably show is that he's a reasonably successful business person of no particular note except for that son of his, whose notoriety he does not inherit. And yes, the timing does matter, because two decades of lack of interest in him here is already evidence for his lack of notability. Look if the Sun or someone were to put up a profile of him that would be a stronger argument, but when you compare his article to his father's, the paucity here is really very obvious. Mangoe (talk) 23:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep as per Bohemian Baltimore OsageOrange (talk) 00:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete - There is a lot of voting going on here (both ways) but little actual consideration of the sources. Bohemian Baltimore gave just two sources: The Baltimore Sun (which irritatingly presents different content in Europe to what Americans see, requiring a bit of trickery to review) and the Washington Post. Multiple articles from a single source count as one towards GNG, but that is moot because, as has already been pointed out by WeirdNAnnoyed, none of these sources count towards GNG, because none have significant coverage on Mangione. I'll take just one example: The idea is to preserve the golf courses and develop a mixed-use community around it with as much green space as possible," said Louis Mangione, "[etc.]"[1]. WP:SIGCOV requires that coverage addresses the topic directly and in detail The topic here is Mangione, and this coverage does not address him as the topic at all. Sources are required to give us something to write the page from. There is literally nothing there that we can say about Mangione. That source provides us nothing at all. It is not SIGCOV. And no, we can't use his spoken words because those are primary and not independent. Bohemian Baltimore quotes the guidance that the mention does not need to be the main topic of the source material and that is true, but it must still be significant. There is nothing we can say about Mangione from these sources. They do not meet GNG. None of them. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:58, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete Run of the mill business person, does not meet WP:GNG, notablity is not inherited. Orange sticker (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per Sirfurboy’s reasoning. While Louis Mangione has popped up in many Baltimore/DC newspaper articles over the years, the articles typically only provide the bare minimum amount of information about Mangione needed for the reader to understand his relevancy to the main article topic. These are trivial mentions, not significant coverage. The only meaningfully in-depth coverage about Mangione comes from articles about his son and father (who does actually have some significant coverage pre-dating the shooting). I don’t believe that a large number of trivial mentions and some inherited notability is enough to meet GNG. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 23:30, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep as per @Bohemian Baltimore AverageWikiContributor (talk) 23:38, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I put this as a reply. AverageWikiContributor (talk) 23:39, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

OOPS* Can someone delete this? I don't know how; AverageWikiContributor (talk) 23:39, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I removed your duplicate per your request and left this one in place as requested here [2]. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete As per the reasons put forward by Oaktree b who said: "His business enterprise is not notable. If this was brought up to AfD six months ago, we'd delete it." Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 01:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable outside of his son being a widely-known suspect in a crime. Kingturtle = (talk) 18:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. But at this point, I'm leaning Delete. I think those argue for Deletion have made the argument that aside from his son's alleged crimes, he is a run-of-the-mill businessman. There are only a few sources used in the article but a source assessment and whether or not they provide SIGCOV would be useful right now.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:38, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete: fails WP:GNG. The sources provided give the illusion of notability, but upon closer inspection, none of them offer WP:SIGCOV. They're all passing mentions. This is a clear case of WP:NOTINHERITED.--DesiMoore (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep There are many articles about non-high profile individuals. I don't see why should we treat this one differently. Equalness1 (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:LPNAME Wafflefrites (talk) 20:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete- run of mill references by internet sleuths cannot justify notability. Only thing notable is that person is related to an accused killer, which is a huge WP:BLP violation. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:19, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  As per Liz, some source analysis of this version [3]:

  • [4] is a youtube interview of Nino Mangione by the Republican Women Baltimore County club. It does not mention Louis and is only used to cite the pronounciation of the last name of Mangione. Obviously should just be removed as a source (and I just did.)
  • [5], archived at [6] is an obituary of Nicholas Mangione. Louis is mentioned twice, once when he recounts a story about nicholas mangione, and another time to repeat that Louis survives as the son. Is obviously WP:PASSING coverage.
  • [7] mostly part of the media circus of the killing
  • [8] mentions louis as son of nicholas, and includes multiple quotes by him. However, the subject matter is mostly about the resort and speaks nothing about louis himself.
  • [9] - a single quote by louis. is WP:PASSING coverage
  • [10], archived at [11] mostly just mentions louis as a project lead a single time. WP:PASSING
  • [12].. no useful archive, so goodby $6 i guess. A single quote by Louis.
  • [13] a single quote by Louis.
  • [14] - media circus of killing
  • [15] - no mention of louis, just used to talk about his son being arrested

  Findings: Of the 10 sources in here, 2 do not mention Louis by name at all, just different members of family. 5 are clear WP:PASSING mentions, a single quote or a single sentence in a larger story. 1 source includes louis talking extensively about the business prospects of a major resort, arguably more about the resort than louis And 2 are the media circus frenzy around luigi mangion. Even then, its more about the mangione family as a whole.

  We should delete article. There is no meaningful notability here, only WP:BLPCRIME, and much of this is mostly WP:BLPGOSSIP about the family. See also WeirdNAnnoyed for a more succinct summary. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  .. and now Baltimore Sun won't lemme cancel my $6 yearly subscription :( Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  Will also note nearly all Keep votes are citing Bohemian's reasoning, but as most sourcing is clearly trivial, those Keep votes should be discounted/discarded. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Historical events matter. They can and do transform irrelevant people into notable people. For example, Marina Oswald automatically becomes notable only because she was married to Lee Harvey Oswald. Eva Braun becomes notable because she was Hitler's longtime girlfriend and finally wife. Clara Petacci becomes notable because she was Mussolini's mistress. The fact that Louis Mangione is very wealthy obviously means that he's capable of paying for his son's legal services and defenses. IZAK (talk) 00:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

there is significant literature of Eva Braun, and Lee Harvey Oswald. All literature and sourcing in this page is passing references or mostly about Luigi Mangione. And historical significance is hard to judge when WP:RECENTISM is driving most of this convo on this AfD right now. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Historical events unfold at blinding speed. The calculated cold blooded assassination of the CEO of America's largest health insurance company on the streets of NYC by the scion of a fabulously wealthy family headed by Louis Mangione is a major event with major media and social repercussions as one can easily see from the massive amount of reporting and interest by the media. Thousands of articles, TV reports and social media posts continue to flood in. It's obvious we are dealing with a major story that is not going away and that it's not a flash in the pan event or a "run-of-the mill" random murder. IZAK (talk) 01:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, thousands of articles about Luigi Mangione 'continue to flood in', and nobody is arguing over the fact that the killing is a major story that is not going away. However, the notability of a random businessman in Louis Mangione who just happens to be that same person's father does not in and of itself meet notability requirements, a reason among others being WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Réunion! 09:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

What you don't seem to get is that the Mangiones are an interconnected dynasty, clan and a family business and you cannot seperate one clan member from the other especially when Louis Mangione is not just another random member of the dynasty and clan, but he is the head and CEO of the entire multi-million Mangione business empire and that is WP:N and not a trivial thing. In addition his wealth allows him to buy the best lawyers to defend his son which is a critical piece of this story. IZAK (talk) 20:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Before the killing nobody knew this “multi-million dollar empire” even existed, it wasn’t in the public eye nor did it gain any notability as referenced by Sirfurboy’s analysis of the sources you provided and the sources provided by Bohemian Baltimore. If you’re able to provide sources that fit SIGCOV then that would back up your claim but so far there hasn’t been any, nor do I think there will be. Unrelated, but happy Wikipedia Birthday! Réunion! 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep per previously stated reasonings. DovahDuck (talk) 00:49, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep There are significant coverage in reliable sources as Bohemian Baltimore listed, they decided that he is notable, we don't get to perform original research on whether he is a run off the mill guy or not. Kenneth Kho (talk) 00:53, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  Which of the sources do you believe provide significant coverage? There are certainly a lot of sources, but so far no one has found any sources that contain coverage going beyond a trivial mention or passing reference. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 18:09, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  I vehemently agree with you @Spirit of Eagle, nobody has found anything to merit a keep in my eyes, everybody is just assuming he passes notability requirements. Réunion! 09:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep Subject is notable Codonified (talk) 11:49, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete Yea its useless Yesyesmrcool (talk) 15:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete To me it seems that he's just notable by association. The analysis of the sources by other users also did not give favorable results, so either the article needs to be updated with strong secondary sources that specifically discuss the subject of this page or it should be deleted and/or merged under its current condition. Keivan.f^Talk 21:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Merge I agree with reasonsing about lack of sources but I think that will likely sort itself out in the following year with inevitable journalist and academic reasearch that will be conducted about his son's life. What I am worried about is that the article is extremely short, that he's just not notable enough as a parent or business man to warrent a full article. I believe until there is information that makes him more notable that this article should be merged with his son's. AssanEcho (talk) 23:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Keep because he is WP:N in his own right and the article has enough WP:V WP:RS. IZAK (talk) 04:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  See the relist comment. Could you show at least 3 sources that meet GNG please? Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  He is notable because he owns multiple big companies: Mangione Family Enterprises, Lorien Health Services, Turf Valley Resort, Hayfields Country Club. Therefore, to allege that "he is a run-of-the-mill businessman" is both not true and misleading. In any case, just exactly what is a "NOT run of the mill businessman"??? You don't have to be a Bill Gates of Microsoft or a Jeff Bezos of Amazon to meet the notability guidelines of Wikipedia where even Bugs Bunny and Woody Woodpecker are notable enough to get articles of their own. IZAK (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

  I asked for sources and you gave arguments. Sources are what matters. We need multiple independent reliable secondary sources that discuss him as the subject. We need those because that is what we use to write the article. If we don't have such sources, he does not qualify for a BLP article. You cannot write a BLP without independent reliable secondary sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

(1) "Nick Mangione Sr. said in 1995 that he was beginning to pass the torch to his children, in particular his two eldest sons, Louis and John, who were described as civil engineers. Louis, Luigi Mangione’s father, became the point person for the Mangione Family Enterprises" [16]. (2) "Who are Luigi Mangione’s wealthy parents, Louis and Kathleen – and what have they said since his arrest? The couple are involved in the healthcare and travel industries" [17]. (3) "His father, Louis Mangione, known as Lou, now runs much of the family's business empire" [18]. (4) "Louis, and uncle, John, took over the role of handling the family's business affairs when Nick Mangione Sr. began to step back from those duties in 1995, with Louis taking the lead of Mangione Family Enterprises" [19]. (5) "His father, Louis was groomed to help take over the family’s business empire, according to a 2003 Washington Post article" [20]. With hundreds more references like these. He may not have been NOTICABLE before, but, once his son assassinated the largest US health insurance company CEO, he is very NOTABLE now. IZAK (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. The first thing to notice here is that all five of these sources are occasioned by Luigi's arrest, coverage extending over just 3 days. They ask "who are his parents," but although family always gets such a brief flurry of notice following arrests for such crimes, per WP:NRV, the evidence must show the topic has gained significant independent coverage or recognition, and that this was not a mere short-term interest. So they are insufficient on those grounds. But in any case, these are not evidence of notability per SIGCOV, which states GNG is only met if, among other factors, the source addresses the topic directly and in detail Looking at these:

(1) You quote the entirety of what it says about Louis. 45 words. Sources are required so that something can be written about the subject. This gives us nothing to say about him. There is no detail here. N

(2) The only information in this piece is that Louis is 71 and "Louis is reportedly the owner of Lorien Health Services." Again, nothing in detail. Very telling that the article asks "Who are [Luigi's parents]" and then spends most time on Luigi’s paternal grandfather, Nicholas. This is evidence that Louis is not notable. N

(3) Same comment as above. The article asks who is Luigi's father, gives us just 15 words! And then it launches into the much more notable grandfather, Nicholas. In an article looking at the accused party's father, they could find nothing to say and so talked about his grandfather. This is clear evidence of a lack of notability. N

(4) Just 36 words. Not SIGCOV. Nothing from which the article can be written. N

(5) Just 20 words. And note that all of these are only repeating the only single factoid we know about the man. He took over the family business created by Nicholas Mangione. Five articles and all we can say is that he is 71 and took over the business. There is no SIGCOV here. GNG is not met and these are excluded per NRV. N Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

It makes no difference how we arrive at the WP:V and WP:RS and how many words are or are not expended in articles in the process because if you add up the hundreds of mentions of Louis Mangione it amounts to massive WP:N. What you are really doing is going into overdrive and nitpicking hoping that your WP:LAWYERING will make reality go away. Of course Louis Mangione was under the radar but his son's assassination of a notable CEO have brought Louis Mangione out from behind the curtains into the spotlight of publicity in the public domain and behold he is in fact WP:N in his own right to deserve a short article about himself, and no one can change that or make it go away. IZAK (talk) 20:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Nah, it's not wikilawyering when I was perfectly clear. We need [significant coverage in independent reliable secondary sources] because that is what we use to write the article. If we don't have such sources, he does not qualify for a BLP article. You cannot write a BLP without independent reliable secondary sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:13, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

This subject is about breaking news and as such a lot of important information is not going to exist in the formalized WP format that you mention in order to write a "perfect" WP article about a key person, Louis Mangione, involved in this story. It has only been a few weeks that the assassination took place and it takes time for all the relevant facts and personalities to come into public view. Therefore we rely on news reports and articles from whatever sources no matter how brief as long as they are bona fide WP:V and WP:RS even though they may individually lack longer details. In this kind of situation WP allows, even encourages, editors to WP:BEBOLD and Wikipedia:Ignore all rules and write up an article about Louis Mangione who is both a notable millionaire in his own right and is therefore also responsible for hiring the best lawyers for his son in this sensational murder trial. IZAK (talk) 20:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep because he is notable. Theofunny (talk) 17:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete – Per WP:GNG: None of the sources provide significant coverage of the person in question, only providing trivial mentions, with notability not being inherited. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 22:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete he is not notable. Anvib (talk) 22:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia, notable subjects will be those for which sufficient sourcing is available. If there is sourcing, he is notable. I do not feel we have the right to dictate who is notable or not if the information is present. That is the spirit of Wikipedia. 19.12.92.185 (talk) 22:53, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep 19.12.92.185 (talk) 22:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• Redirect with history - Redirect with history to Lorien Health Services, Luigi Mangione or Nicholas Mangione, but do not delete. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• support Redirect- Redirect with for the reasons stated to Lorien Health Services, Luigi Mangione for the reasons stated. 190.219.101.225 (talk) 04:26, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• keep, notable by himself as a businessman Kingofthedead (talk) 04:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)