Talk:Ramakrishna

so sensuality is avidyamaya and love is vidyamaya . . . where does sex fall?

That's so simplistic as to miss the point. Sex if it is governed within a dharmic life is fine. Hinduism hails samsara (in the context of a career and married life) as a vital and important aspect of humanity. If one loses control of it and sex/sensuality (kama) becomes the end unto itself, one is being steeped in illusory (maya) ignorance (avidya). As for love, it has many forms. It's not just one thing, as you should know. Vidyamaya is also not complete enlightenment. It is still illusion. Until one is undifferentiated enlightenment, there is always an essence of ignorance. Not that this is bad. The world is fine, but one should be aware of oneself, one's actions.

Shri Ramakrishna once explicated the difference between maya and daya (compassion). Maya is attachment ('love') for one's family and friends, one's own little social circle. Daya, compassion, is love for all people, beings, animals, in the world. Those who are enlightened, like the Buddha or Swami Vivekananda, knew love and were love. I recommend you find (on the internet or whatever) a book called "The Gospel of Shri Ramakrishna" (in Bengali Shri Ramakrishna Charitamrit). It explains his view of Hinduism perfectly.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:17, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

>"so sensuality is avidyamaya and love is vidyamaya . . . where does sex fall?"

Ramakrishna implied that all things, good and bad, were maya (illusion). According to him, both love and hate, materialism and spirituality, egotism and generosity exist only due to our limited perception of Reality. However, he divided them in illusions that bind us further (avidyamaya) and illusions that take us further on the dispelling of maya itself (vidyamaya).

Sensuality here means that which is perceived by our five senses. As one cannot trust one's eyes before a trained magician, also our human five senses draw and drag us further to illusions and false conclusions, whereas the embracing and realization of some concepts that are not sensual (i.e., "of the senses"), such as love, generosity, spirituality, all of them "vidyamaya", take us further away from sticking to what we see, touch, smell, hear, taste.

In Ramakrishna's view, one does not have to close the eyes before the magician or to run from sex. But in both cases, man's senses do not account for the most important things happening there.

the link to the Japanese version of this does not seem to be linking...... whomever knows how to fix it should. -gren

NPOV Dispute...

Reading this entry in our wikipedia I am struck by the extreme single-sidedness of it as an introduction to Ramakrishna and his legacy. He is blatantly called "a man of God" and his impact on the world is judged to be "tremendous"... It makes me suspect that it is written by the Ramakrishna Mission...

The article continues in a devotional mode in which Ramakrishna is said to have experienced "nirvikalpa samadhi (absorption in the all-encompassing Consciousness)" which is it is then said "gave Ramakrishna an understanding of the two sides of maya (illusion)"... This may be true, but it is debatable and rational, reasonable persons could and do disagree with the implicit world-view expressed by the article as it stands.

We should strive for a NPOV stance in our articles. I know that there is a controversial discussion of Ramakrishna, his spirituality and his legacy going on and I want it to be represented in the article in the proper, agreed upon manner... But I do not want to be "flamed" and become involved in an "edit war" when/if I add information and links about it... Fair warning, no?Emyth 22:00, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dear Emyth,

I dont think the article is 'extremely' single sided. But there is lot of scope for improvement. The impact of Ramakrishna, Vivekananda on the renaissance that followed in Bengal has been tremendous - acknowledged by Subhas Bose, S. Radhakrishnan, Rajagopalachari etc. The mission runs around 600 educational institutions and has not been affected by any controversies. Vivekananda is treated as the face of modern day Hinduism by most of the sects of Hinduism.

The experience of Samadhi etc. themselves warrant separate articles and all mystics - most recently Ramana Maharshi - have tried to explain about what happens when one attains samadhi. They say that our language system as it exists is based on the perception of the world through our 5 sense organs and is incapable of fully describing super-conscious states such as samadhi. I would appreciate if somebody starts a wikistub on samadhi.

Every great character such as the Christ, Muhammad etc. have been made controversial by scholars. Relavent sections on them in wikipedia do not include those details, though ! I am not telling that there should not be NPOV stance. But let us judge for ourselves what the scholars really say and how sincere they are, else there will be "edit wars". What few "scholars" opine, should not become basis for controversy. The Britannica had a section on Sri Ramakrishna and only reference book it suggested was "Kali's child"- not including even Kathamrita, Lilaprasanga etc. That is certainly not NPOV :)

Last, i did study in Ramakrishna mission school and your fair warning has been noticed ! Ramashray 14:12, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Wikipedia entry for Ramakrishna is unabashed hagiography. For a full and clear discussion of the issues regarding Ramakrishna's sexuality, please see: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kalischi/ jodyrrr Mar 8, 2005

Yes, this is some of the material I knew was out there; thank you for the reference. (I hope that anyone who joins this discussion will sign their contributions so we can keep this civil. I am really put off by the tone, the ad hominum attacks etc. that characterize that dispute. I hope we can rise above that here.) At this point I am working on a response to Ramashray's comments. If one actually goes to the articles on the characters he mentions, one will find a difference in their treatment that we would do well to follow here; e.g. There are artilces about Jesus as well as Christ. And they are scholarly and encyclopedic. Controversy is not swept under the rug or erased; it is right there out front and dealt with in as NPOV as possible. If we work harder, then this article can rise to wikipedia standards. If one wants to read a treatment of Ramakrishna as a "saint" then there will be links to the Ramakrishna Mission site... One will also be able to follow links to the scholarly "opinion" that devotees may find offensive, even blasphemous, as well. That is what NPOV means, no? Emyth 19:29, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Emyth,

Pls dont waste your time in preparing a response to my comments. Its not necessary. Whatever your response be on Ramakrishna, it will be based on Jeffry Kripal's work. The author neither knows how to read nor how to write in Bengali. The mission, monastic order and Ramakrishna-Vivekananda are held in very high esteem in India and even people from other 'faiths' such as dwaita, vishistadwaita etc. look upon Ramakrishna with great reverence. In fact, before Kripal's work, the sources which he uses such as Kathamrita and Leelaprasanga have been read by millions in India (both scholars and lay people) and such interpretations as Kripal makes occurred to nobody.

So before commenting on anybody who belongs to 'other' culture, it is necessary to understand their culture.

I would like to point out several scholarly articles and the user comments which have appeared in this connection at http://www.sulekha.com

columnists such as Rajeev Srinivasan (address at IITM alumni), S. N. Balagangadhara (India and her traditions), Sankrant Sanu ( http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305899), Rajeev Malhotra etc. have written extensively on the same. Please read them once. Just for the sake of making an article 'imapartial' we should not be putting what every other person says, right ?

As regarding Jodyrr's link - it is difficult to get full and clear discussion as most of the Indians, who are spiritually oriented and are authority on the lives of Gurus dont have internet access !!

Ramashray 05:33, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rajeev Malhotra's critique of Kali's Child is refuted here: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kalischi/tantrictruth.html

Swami Tyagananda's is answered here: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kalischi/textuality.html

jodyrrr Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:10PM MST

I'm a Vedantist, and I have to admit that while the article certainly expresses some of my feelings and beliefs, it is far from neutral.

Also, I'm wowed that there is no reference to Sarada Devi, who does have her own article. 23:39, Apr 28, 2005 User:70.33.35.194