User talk:Ephyon

First Issue: Mahou and Majutsu

Definition

Mahou: Miracles. Impossible occurrences that defy all laws of nature. Things like making something out of nothing, resurrection, time-travel, dimension-hopping. What most people think when they hear the word Magic. In the TYPE-MOON world, exceedingly rare stuff.

Majutsu: Much more restrictive working of spellcraft. A determined, ordered system with definite physics and laws running under the world’s laws and following principles such as give-and-take. If I were to stretch it a bit, closer to the Fullmetal Alchemist concept of “Alchemy” than what most people consider magic.

Known translations

Moonlit World
Mahou: Magic
Majutsu: Sorcery

Mirror Moon/Revolve
Mahou: Sorcery
Majutsu: Magic

I asked about this, look at Ryuusoul’s second post.

Arai
Mahou: Magic
Majutsu: Thaumaturgy

That’s the gist of it. In reality, any term which is normally used for spellcasting could apply. Magic, Sorcery,Wizardry, etc.

Please vote using the following formula:

• Mahou: [Choice]
• Majutsu: [Choice]
• Reasoning, preference, why not a certain term, related ramblings, etc.

Votes

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• Mahou: Sorcery. If accepted, in synonymy with True Magic
• Majutsu: Magic

Reasoning: Primarily, it’s what Mirror Moon/Revolve choose for their translations, meaning that it’s what the majority of any upcoming fanbase will enter in contact with first. Following that, Nasu has established the word Magus in roman characters for Majutsu users, which I think goes better with magic. I’m not averse to going with True Magic, or at least using it in synonymy with Sorcery for Mahou if the voting leads to that, because I do consider the meaning to be closer to what’s intended.

While Thaumaturgy actually does fit perfectly in the semantic sense, it really just seems like an unnecessarily obscure term when there are more accessible and equally effective terms at hand. Finally, I share Ryuusoul’s view on “Wizardry”, it’s a predominantly masculine term with only male practitioners (Wizards), while “Magi” is more open to both genders, and Sorcery actually has separate forms for both. Ephyon 23:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think that miracle is probably the English word most evocative of the "true magic" concept, and would hence be the most accessible to the average reader. We could then use magic/sorcery/wizardry/whatever to describe the "magical technique" idea, either interchangeably or to make more minute distinctions such as that between Rin's mechanical (wizard-like) spellcasting and Shiro's more instinctual (sorcerous) talents.
  Basically, while the semantic differences between sorcery, magic, wizardry, thaumaturgy, etc. are all very minor and only a hardcore fantasy or mythology geek would distinguish between them, everyone understands the impact intended by "Good lord, it's a miracle!".
  On a final note, this might be better done on a talk page than on your main user talk, since someone may actually need to speak to you about something other than this. --tjstrf talk 23:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The problems with the word “miracle” as a general denominator are as follows:

• It has a tremendously predominant religious connotation. In fact, the textbook definition is “something wonderful brought by divine intervention”.
• It has no semantic correlation to the original Japanese term, which is the word they normally use for all kinds of spells.
• It really holds very little if any relationship with spellcasting as a whole.
• Nasu’s Mahou isn’t very close to what a normal person would call a miracle.
• It’d be a mess to relate to it’s users. What would you call Aoko? A “miracle worker”?

Basically, the word miracle is only used in addition to mark the fact that Mahou is an impossibility made reality. Using it as a real denominator would be completely out of place, in my opinion at least. Furthermore, creating personal distinctions like Rin/Shirö’s style differences would be original fiction and research. While I know where you’re coming from, no such distinction is ever made in any material.

Also, don’t worry about anyone needing to talk to me specifically here. That hasn’t happened… ever, and I’ve been around for a while. --Ephyon 00:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Some good points, but there will be similar complaints with any other term. Sorcery, for instance, is both insufficiently differentiated from magic in common usage (where it's just a fancy synonym) and by dictionary denotation is performed by demonic intervention and inherently evil. Nasu's use of the term is one of his own invention, so finding an exact synonym is not a reasonable expectation. Even if we went for a straight transliteration, mahō, it would only be accurate usage within the context of type-moonian jargon.

And to clarify, I wasn't suggesting we OR a non-existent formal distinction between sorcery and magic, just that if the words were being used as equivalents (rather than to describe two different ideas) the subtle connotative difference could help in writing accurately. Whatever route we go with, it would probably be better to get some input besides just the two of us arguing back and forth.

And finally, that's quite surprising. I get people posting on mine constantly. Maybe not every day, but at least several a week when I'm active. --tjstrf talk 06:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

• Maho: Magic
• Majutsu: Sorcery

Reasoning: These seem closest to me. "Sorcery" has more wordly or technical connotations to me, while "magic" seems more mystical sparkly mysterious, or less explainable. I don't know what you would call someone who uses magic, though. A magician? That seems cheesy, at least in most cases. (EDIT: I guess magus would work.) Voretus 15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Mahou: Sorcery
• Majutsu: Magic or Magick

Reasoning: I am leaning to "magic" as "majutsu" Mainly because we already have "magus" for "majutsushi" and "Mage's Association" for "majutsu kyoukai". One problem with this, however, is that magic also occasionally refers to "illusion/state magic/sleight of hand", which is not what majutsu is all about.

One suggestion I can present is to use magick instead (or alternately). "Magick" by definition is "a paranormal practice that is not capable of producing 'miracles' or violating the physical laws of the universe", which I think is exactly what majutsu in Type-Moon universe means. I do think, however, that this term is a little bit occult.

As for the other one, I think we need to establish a somewhat commonly used word in English as "mahou" is pretty common in Japanese. "Sorcery" it is. - Scroogey McDucky 03:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Second Issue: Maryoku

Definition

The energy used for spellcasting. Magic power, energy, chakra, MP, chi, Athena’s saints’ cosmos, what is OVER NINE THOUSAND. You get the idea.

It is divided into energy existent in the environment (Mana) and energy generated internally by living things (Od). However, the usage of Maryoku when describing processes related to spellcasting is much more predominant than distinguishing between the two. Meaning we can’t weasel out by just saying either Mana or Od depending on the situation.

Notes

The word literally means “Magic Energy” or “Magic Power”

“Mana”, in it’s dictionary definition, actually is both environmental and personal energy, but Nasu has specifically limited the usage of the term to the former, so that’s a no go.

Known Translations

Moonlit World: Magic(al) Energy
Arai: Prana
Mirror Moon/Revolve: Magic(al) Energy

Once again, I asked at MM/Revolve.

Votes

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• Choice: Magic Energy

Yes, it’s somewhat simple and unrefined, but functional, and most importantly, closest to the original meaning. A writer with a moderate amount of skill can phrase things so as not to constantly repeat “Magic Energy” over and over and the term can be shortened to simple “energy” if it’s necessary to use it continuously.

My view on Prana is the same as the one for Thaumaturgy. It fits, but it’s an unnecessarily uncommon term. Ephyon 23:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• Magical energy

I think "magical energy" works better than "Magic Energy". The latter sounds like a role-playing game, which usually isn't that bad in-universe, but I think it's a bit too much. Using "magical" as an adjective sounds better and captures the meaning of the word more. "Prana" is just silly. Are all the magicians in the Type-Moon world going to start practicing hardxxxxcore yoga? Voretus 15:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Image category

I have just created and populated Category:Type-Moon images for the purpose of tracking all the images related to the various Type Moon articles. In the process, I also attempted to clean up the various images, so that they at least all had a nominal amount of copyright information. Some day they're all going to need rationales as well, frighteningly enough.

Since this required nearly 150 exceptionally tedious edits over an hour or so, I'm absolutely positive that I screwed the description of at least one image up where I did not catch my mistake. So if you see any edits I have made to image pages that seem incorrect to you, rest assured, they are.

I'm just notifying you of this since I am unaware of any centralized discussion area for type-moon's stuff (except maybe Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual novels) and figured I should tell someone what I was doing. --tjstrf talk 10:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding name changes in Vampires (Kinoko Nasu)

I understand. However, "Gransburg Blackmore" is credited as "Gransurg" in both the game and the Character Material, with "Black-more" and "Blackmoa" as his last name (the second one obviously wrong). - Scroogey McDucky 13:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

My bad, never noticed that. Ephyon 13:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)