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* '''Strong keep''': The entropy concept has rarefy been studied in biology and '''powerengineering''', althought entropy is as significant as energy, because entropy is the only concept in the physical sciences having directionality with lifetime. Application of the entropy concept to biology would lead to a deeper understanding of living systems. There are still conceptual and methodological difficulties in the measurement and estimation of the entropy content of living systems. --[[User:83.5.131.170|83.5.131.170]] 07:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
* '''Strong keep''': The entropy concept has rarefy been studied in biology and '''powerengineering''', althought entropy is as significant as energy, because entropy is the only concept in the physical sciences having directionality with '''lifetime'''. Application of the entropy concept to biology would lead to a deeper understanding of living systems. There are still conceptual and methodological difficulties in the measurement and estimation of the entropy content of living systems. --[[User:83.5.131.170|83.5.131.170]] 07:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:05, 29 June 2007

Fluid entropy

Fluid entropy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Incoherent ramblings Ϙ 19:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like to mention something in particular? Then I can try to explain. You can also provide us some sources to valid your opinion. I mentioned my sources and bibliography, where is yours?! --LidiaFourdraine 08:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User Q - I would suggest you to improve the article. Your remarks are too general ("ramblings") so they do not really help me to verify the article.
Please notice also: "Before nominating a recently created article, please consider that many good articles started their Wikilife in pretty bad shape. Unless it is obviously a hopeless case, consider sharing your reservations with the article creator, mentioning your concerns on the article's discussion page, and/or adding a "cleanup" template, instead of bringing the article to AfD". --LidiaFourdraine 09:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have got to be joking. Those google hits are referring to the entropy of a fluid, not the pseudoscience on the fluid entropy page. "solid entropy" and "gas entropy" return similar numbers of hits. Ϙ 04:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Just because neither I nor the nominator understand this, doesn't make it incoherent. It's cited, TenPound has verified that it's notable, and there is some attempt to put it into plain English. I get the idea that it's about loss of energy efficiency in a liquid. The author cites to an article called "Entropy issues in aviation," but misses the obvious next step... which is to give us an example of why we should care about "fluid entropy". How about it, Lidia F.? Mandsford 00:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fluid entropy or maybe even better "the entropy of fluids" describes the behaviour of fluids using the concepts of entropy, chaos, dissipation and quantum mechanics. The behaviour of fluids is fascinating and still unknown - laboratories are working to solve the mysteries - see page: [1]. The macroscopic effects (one can see with his eyes) are well known (bubbles, cavitation, damage) and the sources mention websites where one can see it: [2] and [3]. The microscopic effects (one can not see with his eyes) are connected with quantum mechanics and the mystery of bubbles (see Nature vol.409, nr.6822, the article "Quantum physics: count them all" and "Cavitation science: Is there a simple theory of sonoluminescence?" The articles are available on the website: [4] paragraph Research Highlights) - both are still an open book, the last word is not said yet ... If we put energy to fluids (by heating, filtration, pumping) we increase their entropy (state of chaos), the temperature rises, bubbles are formed and even nucleate boiling can take place. Just think about cooking some water. It is important to take the increase of entropy in a fluid into consideration, because it can have unpredictable(?) effects like described in article "Entropy issue in aviation". To reduce the risks US Transportation Board (FAA Federal Aviation Administration is the right name)ordered to fill the space above fuel in fuel tanks with nitrogen after a few unexplained fuel tanks raptures. I think this case illustrates why we should care about "fluid entropy". --LidiaFourdraine 08:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The citations are random. They don't actually have anything to do with the content of the page. Ϙ 04:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please read "Entropy and the Second Law, Fluid Flow and Heat Transfer Simulation", Journal of Thermophysics and Heat Transfer, vol. 17, no.3, July-September 2003, authors: G.F. Naterer - University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada and J.A. Camberos - U.S.Air Force Research Laboratory, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. It refers to fluid entropy (entropy of fuel).
  • Merge with Entropy (order and disorder) --- in all honesty, I am sceptical how much of this article's text is usable; however. I am no longer sceptical of how much of the text is usable, upon reviewing it more closely and reading the creator's remarks here, I am quite sure none of it is. Strong Delete, there are a number of wiki articles dealing with entropy and this adds nothing but weird post-modern pseudo-science. Bigdaddy1981 01:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To make it easier to understand for everybody (with and without knowledge of advanced physics) we can change the title to "Entropy of Fluids" because it describes entropy issue in fluids. Entropy issue in fluids is still not well-known among the public but it can be interesting for everyone interested in entropy, exergy and efficient energy production to save the environment and that is something important for all of us! Let me cite the two authors mentioned above (G.F.Naterer and J.A.Camberos) : "Entropy serves as a key parameter in achieving the theoretical limits of performance and quality in many engineering applications. Together with exergy, it can shed new light on various processes: from optimized flow configurations in an aircraft engine ...
Minimizing entropy production is equivalent to minimizing exergy destruction...." End of citation.
Now it is up to you to decide about the future of the article. Greetings. --LidiaFourdraine 09:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete As a physicist and a co-author of some of the articles regarding entropy, I must say it's terrible incoherent nonsense. Even if it were not nonsense, it should have been deleted, becuase there is nothing particular in fluid entropy, at least not in this article. Why not having articles about "toothbrush entropy", "car entropy", "toilet paper entropy" and so on? Dan Gluck 11:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The concept of entropy is interdisciplinary and touches almost every aspect of our daily lives (transportation, biology, energy, environment, industry) and is strongly connected with open thermodynamic systems, toilet paper is not an open thermodynamic system, a moving car yes. But the arrow of time has impact on everything even on your toilet paper. After years it will turn into dust. --LidiaFourdraine 12:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's my point, you wouldn't make an article about "entropy in toilet papers!", would you? by the way, toilet paper is an open thermodynamic system, as is almost everything in our world. Dan Gluck 13:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Example for incoherence: the section Fluid_entropy#The_development_of_fluid_entropy. 1) How and why should a fluid of bosons be turned over in time to a fluid of fermions?? 2) stating that a "low entropy state" becomes a "high entropy state" as the entropy grows is a triviality. Dan Gluck 11:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
1. Because both states are possible and probable according to quantum mechanics. See link: [5]
Thank you for teaching me physics, but you may notice that I am finishing my PhD in physics. Unfortunately this is obviously not your field of expertise. Bosons cannot be turned into fermions, except for some bizarre solitonic phenomena which I don't want to get into right now.Dan Gluck 13:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
2. It is not a triviality. It is in an agreement to the second law of thermodynamics.
--LidiaFourdraine 12:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No. What the table states is in fact pure logic: if we start with a state of low X, and X gets higher, then we end up with a state of high X. X can be anything. It is true that the second law of thermodynamics states that if X is entropy then the above sentence correctly describes reality.Dan Gluck 13:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep as I would like to take a crack at fixing the language and adding sources. The author seems to be stating a lot of what's in the c. 1980 pop science text, Order From Chaos, which I have at home (not here at work). For starters, I'd excise the first dependent clause of the first sentence, which would clarify much grammatical nonsense. I've had some great articles rejected by the finest physicists for peer reviewed journals, which is why I now teach business law and legal writing. :-) Bearian 12:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't give a reason for keeping the articleDan Gluck 13:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think the language is the problem here. The article lacks useful content and deals with subject matter about which other (coherant) articles exist. 65.241.15.131 16:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on notability: the following get more hits in google than "fluid entropy": "paper entopy", "Michael entropy", "google entropy", "car entropy" and many more... (unfortunately "toilet paper entropy" don't get so much...) so that's not a sign of notability.Dan Gluck 14:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: This article doesn't seem to be much more than vague ramblings about fluids and thermodynamics. There are clearly many interesting things to say in this regard but they do not appear in this article. Also, I'm very worried about the correctness of numerous sdtatements, particularly the "bosons go to fermions" line that other editors have mentioned. Joshua Davis 16:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: First of all, when "fluid entropy" is typed into Google, this article appears at the top of the heap. Which this is not too unusual for Wikipedia articles, it normally does not happen with new Wikipedia articles unless little else exists on the topic. So immediately we have evidence on non-notability in the Google search. Furthermore, examination of the other Google hits found shows that the term "fluid entropy" is used in the context "the entropy of a fluid", which makes this term quite trival. To make matters worse, the article offers no mathematical definition of this "fluid entropy", which is not in accord with the other existing entropy articles. Overall, this is a rambling article which does not add anything useful to this encyclopedia. As a description this term is trivial and non-notable. As a field of study it is a neologism and therefore inadmissible under WP:NOR. --EMS | Talk 18:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
— 83.5.131.170 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Bigdaddy1981 20:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note in interest of transparency anon. ip address 83.5.131.170 has made one edit to wikipedia, the above cyptic comment. I suspect sockpupperty is afoot. Bigdaddy1981 20:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the possibility of sockpuppetry(which doesn't seem small, by the way), this comment doesn't really add to the discussion. What is the "entropy taboo"? There are dozens of wiki articles on entropy. The problem here is that this article doesn't seem to add anything to those and has troubling issues of its own: it is not encyclopedic, it seems inaccurate and might violate WP:NOR. Joshua Davis 22:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • Strong keep: The entropy concept has rarefy been studied in biology and powerengineering, althought entropy is as significant as energy, because entropy is the only concept in the physical sciences having directionality with lifetime. Application of the entropy concept to biology would lead to a deeper understanding of living systems. There are still conceptual and methodological difficulties in the measurement and estimation of the entropy content of living systems. --83.5.131.170 07:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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