Talk:Ishmael (Quinn novel)

This article needs to offer page numbers where the quotes are pulled from. This would be very helpful. 150.243.32.195 00:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel that this article needs more than just a summary of the book and how it arrives at the final conclusion—perhaps someone could write a "controversy" or "objections" section at the end. I remember reading this book and being quite disgusted by it. This article, I feel, is not NPOV. Benji 17:03, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Out of curiosity: what in the book did you find disgusting? Was it the manner of story telling or was it the story itself? I've been a very satisfied reader of the story, but that's probably because it fits my world-view nicely, which, I should warn, makes it impossible for me to present a really neutral point of view. --BigSmoke 00:38, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It was mostly the manner in which the story was told that got to me. It seemed painfully slow to me for some reason. The real problem I have with the article is that it makes the book out to have arrived at correct conclusions. I hold a more cynical/pessemistic view of the world I guess. However, it's been way too long since I've read it, so I don't really consider myself qualified to rewrite. Benji 11:21, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I to feel this article needs a controversy section, I just recently read the book and while a lot of the main points where interesting the supporting arguments it often used were either weak or entirely false. It states that humans are the only animals that kill our competitors, that seek to eat the same food we do. It also states we are the only beings that deny our competitors access to food(that we have made). It also was extremely misleading as to the cause of certain civilizations disappearances, such as the Maya or the Hohokam. In the case of both of these the book strongly implies or outright suggest these people left agriculture and irrigation in favor of hunting and gathering willingly. In the case of the Maya's they had a collapse of central government that caused a separation of power but they remained until they were destroyed by invaders from across the sea's. The Hohokam most likely disappeared as a result of a long drought forcing them to abandon irrigation. It also implies that everyone living in this civilization believes this universe was made exclusively for them to rule and that man is somehow not an animal but something better, no longer evolving. I hope this is not representative of the general populations opinion but it very well be. This last fact made the book somewhat difficult for me to read being that I consider humans just another animal, who happened to evolve a highly adaptive brain, which gives us no special position in the universe different from any other being. One last thought, this book suggests if we were to live the life of the hunter gather, being one with nature, we could survive this way indefinitely, this is not true, if we are still on this planet in several hundred million years we will be consumed by the sun(as the sun enters its final death throws), just like every other living thing here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.56.104.196 (talk • contribs) .

In several hundred million years, "we" as a species will definitely not be here anymore. Best case scenario: we will have evolved into something totally different. Just think about it, several hundred million years ago there weren't even any mammals. It's just what Mother Culture is saying: "creation has ended with the birth of Man". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.106.43.93 (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Wow, this book really sucked and was totally illogical. Don't bother writing anymore, it gives the book too much credit.

Someone who's read the book...

I removed this from the first of the summary paragraph:

"By this time the reader they will find themselfs sleeping or realizing how bad of a book ishmael is. one might want to put the book down or cry because our world has come to this. forget creation, captivity, diversity, and laws, the only thing you have ot realize is this book sucks. its a talking GORILLIA!"

Now I haven't read the book, but this is clearly in gross violation of NPOV, and sloppy to boot. Can someone who's read the book check if anything needs adding between these first two paragraphs of the summary section?

Yeah, I did that, the first two paragraphs are fine. I cleaned them up a bit since they were really confusing, so now they are good. And don't believe what that guy wrote, Ishmael is a wonderful book, you just need to have an open mind regarding the whole gorilla thing.

you just need to have an open mind

Which explains why a lot of people won't like it. They're "takers", not "leavers", and they'd rather not be called on their actions. I'm starting to think that Wiki needs a template tag for "Articles that will annoy Americans by describing truthfully what Americans do and how they think about the rest of the world". (And yes, before anyone asks, I'm an American.)

Atlant 11:18, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am the one who said the have an open mind thing and unfortunately I agree with you--most people will not have an open mind about radical ideas like Quinn's. As an anarchist I was pretty willing to look critically at power structures and society, so to me it was mainly just stating a lot of things I had already thought (plus a lot of new ones). And I too am American, at least by birth. I hate calling myself an American though, probably because of the same reasons you allude to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.205.10.56 (talk • contribs) .

So you claim to know the opinion of all Americans? Before being ashamed of your birth, do a little traveling. It is certainly true that America has more than its share of ignorant, bigoted, close-minded imperialists. However, it is also true that America is by far the most diverse country on the planet. See a connection? People have never had an open mind to radical ideas. That is what a radical idea is. t requires temperment to be accpeted by the general populace. Either that, or it remains a cult thing.

02:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)Anon 68.158.43.192

LOL, so you either accept the book's premise of a wise talking gorilla handing down sage advice--in which case you are an open-minded person willing to look critically at the world around him--or you're a closed-minded Taker bastard hell-bent on killing every nonhuman species. Maybe it's not just the book's opponents who have "open-mindedness" problems. As the above discussion indicates, if you swallow everything Quinn says with that open mind of yours, you may be accepting many baldly false assertions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.145.126.104 (talk • contribs) .

I definitely agree with the poster above.

Please say I'm not the only one who thought Ishmael was insanely over-hyped. It lacked pretty much any unique thought and was full of historical inaccuracies. There is no scientific consensus that the Hohokam said, "To hell with it," concerning their agricultural system. The Maya never decided, "Wow, having an agricultural society is suicidal," and simply abandoned their lives. After an incredible amount of research, it was found that both were found to be a mixture of political and environmental issues. There are very little remains of hunter-gathering societies, for obvious reasons, and we don't know nearly as much as Quinn is claiming. So, why is a man with no degree in history, anthropology, or biology writing a book on the anthropological and biological faults humanity is making? He has no authority in the sciences he's commenting on. Why are people believing him when he writes all of this without any citation or bibliography?

This book has as much factual credit as the Bible, Torah, and Koran. Daniel Quinn gives the reader no logical reason to believe him. All he provides are 250 pages of fallacies. Humans aren't nearly as savage as Quinn depicts them.. The reason why farmers go out and hunt foxes is because they are capable of doing so. The hyenas would go attack the lions if they were physically capable of being assured victory, like the farmer is. Animals (especially other primates) divide into tribes and attack each with little provocation. Humans aren't the only ones who behave in such a way.

Humans are the only animal on the planet that actually mourn over their kill. Whether it be fellow human or animal, we are the only species that have ever shown deep respect for our prey (though we rarely do that now) or for killing another human in battle.

Feel free to research any of these statements. I'd be glad to know that I'm wrong on some of them, because I'm having the hardest time swallowing the near unanimous respect this novel appears to be garnishing. There seriously needs to be a section about how inaccurate this book is. Antisthenex 13:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Ishmael (novel) Looking Back-ward and In-ward

It was I think Baldwin whose "we create our own universe" concept which motivated my good friend and writer Brady to question the Thrown-ness of Text. It seemed that in the novel (as genre) he found that the out-there (if indeed it be created by each of us) is both subject and object. He recently wrote to me that he found that the Post-Modern concept of throw-back-ness (as in Fowles's Magus)[that is the novel written in our time takes on the posture of the Victorian] drove a new sense of Baldwin's notion. It was for me Ishmael which (who?) drove the problem into thoughtful-ness. The opening line (who can forget it) sets it up and throughout -- at least through 2/3 of the text -- the Out-There became the In-Here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.69.208 (talk • contribs) .

Category

I am just wondering if this book fits in the "Alternative History" category. It doesn't really provide an alternative history it simply gives one person (gorilla's?) interpretation of history. Jhawk1024 07:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Plot summary?

The "plot summary" section is a hash of both items that are (a)plot, as in events that move the action forward and (b)items that are ideas or philosophy. I know the plot is not the most compelling part of the book but it deserves to treated separately from the exposition.

If anyone seconds the motion, I'll work on this right away. Kwarizmi 17:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I second the motion. Look forward to how you'll improve it. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I Third. Jhawk1024 05:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense. Heck, the plot could fit on one page of the book. A man has a telepathic gorilla tell him stuff. Telepathic gorilla dies from being in the rain. Bada bing, bada, boom. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 07:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I'm reworking the article using the following organization:

• Plot summary (reworked plot summary goes here)
• Major themes
• Ishmael's view of human history (existing text gets reorganized into this section)

• Takers and Leavers
• Enacting the story

... leaving as much of the original text as possible. Much of the narration in the current text ("Ishmael says that", "Ishmael makes the point that", etc) will be removed. Comments/suggestions please? Kwarizmi 15:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There should be a mountain of information at http://www.ishmael.org/welcome.cfm. However, if possible, you should seek third-party sources to make the article's information more balanced. Maybe you can find something about the book in Google Scholar or another database. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Something should be mentioned about the conclusions drawn by Alan at the end of the book. Something along the lines of: humans should see a greater potetial and act as stewards/shepards for other species as they evolve...Wewantutopia 03:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Mother Culture

Does anyone like the idea of having a separate section for the "Mother Culture" idea? I found it an interesting notion, but I'm not sure it's unique to Ishmael. Can anyone help with a possible source/referrence? Kwarizmi 15:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that there should be a whole new article about Mother Culture and the entire world view that Quinn proposes. Because... it's not all about this book, there are several others and articles, essays, interviews that bring a lot of clarity into the matter. 86.106.43.93 14:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:DanielQuinn Ishmael.jpg

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