Talk:Barbaro family

Spelling variations include: Barbaro, Barbara, Barabari, Barbarino, Barbarella, Barbarelli, Barbarotti and many more.

"Golden Books of Venetian Nobility"

There are no such books, according to Google. I would like to see some ISBNs for a lot of the other references. The "Golden Books of Venetian Nobility" is also being used to source another, hoaxish article with no reliable sources, and therefore I have my doubts about this, as well. This article needs to be reverted a long ways back to its earliest beginnings and verifiable sources re-added. Corvus cornix 22:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Ecuse me butting in here, there most certainly was a Libro d'Oro recording the nobility of most of the Italian city states, including Venice. Giano 10:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, Vitus Sebastian Barbaro and Vitus Barbaro have both been deleted for failure to provide references. Corvus cornix 22:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I've just been WP:BOLD and reverted the article to a point before User:Tiki-two and his 65.54.xxx.xxx alter-egos started messing with it. If I've removed anyone's good edits, I apologize profusely, but I think this article needs to be reconsidered in its entirety before it can move forward. Verifiable sources are needed for any further additions or emendations. Deor 00:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Stop at once! You do not know what you are talking about. I suggest you go to Libro d'Oro as well as Libro d'Oro della Nobilta Italiana For those that don't speak Italian, that is The Golden Book, and The Golden Book of Italian Nobility, and there is also a Golden Book of Venetian Nobiility, and There is also a Golden Book of Venetian Nobility just for the Barbaro family because it is so big and old, abd there is even a newer addition for 2007 too. Stop what you are doing at once. You do not know what you are talking about. The whole article of Barbaro family is coming from the golden book of Nobility often called the Encyclopedia of nobility for that family with all references listed. And I have even personally fact checked what is written in the book to validate it's authenticity, Corvix is wrong and unjustidied.

• Vitus Barbaro was deleted because relevant infoewas included into the Barbaro family. There was no need for a seperate article.

• The whole article is sourced as it appears in the Golden Book. vandalism by Corvix must be reverted. He is deleting without being informed.

Prove it. BTW, I didn't delete anything in this page. Corvus cornix 02:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, now I have, since I reverted the hoaxer's revandalism of this page. Corvus cornix 02:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The same user that is meddling with the Barbaro Family page is also relatedly creating a page on something he's calling the Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent. I have found numerous inconsistencies with that article which he attempted to explain away citing unnamed sources, or sources only he claims to have access to. He has edited my personal comments on the discussion page of that article in what appears to me to be an attempt to cover his mistakes. In the discussion page of that article he has referenced pugilism, Amelia Earhart, the Wright Brothers, and a letter by Daniel Russell to a Bro. Chase, a letter which is also cited in his article on the alleged Skull and Crescent Order as being one of their prized artifacts. The citing of this letter was the final straw for me. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but when I found that letter quite amazingly and coincidentally while researching Theta Nu Epsilon on ebay, it became clear that the article on the Sacred Order of the Skull and Crescent was founded mainly, if not wholly, on this individual's fantasies. That letter can still be found on ebay by putting 200101453405, the item number into the ebay search. When I casually conronted the author of the Sacred Order of the Skull and Crescent wikipedia article with this, he initially presented a fantastic notion that perhaps the SOSC members were engaging in the ruse of selling their sacred artifacts to themselves in order to make them look worthless. When I gave the ebay item number, then he quite suddenly and conveniently recalled that oh yes, he just remembered that in his unavailable source it says they reprinted copies of this letter for their members and that this must be one of those ultra rare reprints. The buyer (obviously the author of the Skull and Crescent article) left positive feedback for it. Any dullard can tell an original hand written letter from a copy, if it were a copy negative feedback would have been left. Then upon looking into the publicly available links to items this same person purchased on the online auction site, I found many other fraternity related items as well as Amelia Erhart, Wright Brothers, and pugilism posters! Now I find the author's wikipedia alias is Tiki-Two. Well, that name is almost exactly what the ebay user who purchased this masonic letter uses!

I do not know what his motives are, but it seems he (perhaps in conjunction with associates) are building a hoax on wikipedia, possibly as members of a fraternity. It is possible that he is building a collection of items that he intends to present and cite in articles as important artifacts of secret societies. As a relative outsider to wikipedia, I don't know what course to take, and really don't have the time to find out. I mainly enjoy reading wikipedia articles, not engaging in what to me is vain online argumentation. I fully expect this individual to delite this post, but hopefully it will get through to someone at wikipedia who knows what to do. Wikipedia should not be used to further some publicity stunt or fraternity hoax.

There is no record anywhere else online of a Vitus Sebastian Barbaro that I can find. There is no record anywhere else online of The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent either.

This won't be the only place I send the above information. Hyper_individualist@yahoo.com July 5, 19:51 PST

Eveyone just stop! I am Tiki-two, and I am a Barbaro historian and have been buildingup a body of knowledge pertaining to the Barbaro family. Before everyone destroys all vaiid knowledge, please stop removing stuff untill people fully understand. That means both Corvix and Wikipedia. Everyone just chill. let me explaine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.114.3 (talk • contribs)

• So now both 4.142.114.3 and 65.54.98.111[1] have claimed to be User:Tiki-two. Exactly how many identities do you have, Tiki, and why don't you log on and sign your edits. Time for WP:ANI and a checkuser, methinks. Deor 03:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I would not be surprised if a great many of the IP addresses that have been editing this article are controlled by Tiki-two. But in the absence of any evidence to show this, I will WP:AGF and assume otherwise. Terraxos 03:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Why does everyone panic so easily- and it is so hard to explain with all of these edit conflicts. first, off I made it very clear that I am a Barbaro historian. And it is very clear that the source you questioned about Golden Book is just a misunderstanding Golen Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. Please stop destroying that article. How can you refute what even has a page on Wikipedia?

If you feel you need to flag the page untill matters are resolved than do so but don't destro it. this is a misunderstanding- there is nothing bogus going on here. I will ccontue to explain after this post

Semi-protected

Semi-protected to prevent further revert warring. Tiki-two (and related anons), the ball's in your court to produce reliable sources, but given the state of things at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pugalist Club the additional information looks like a blatant hoax. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Is not Libro d'Oro a reliable source- would you also like me to find out the ISBN numbers for all the sources on the Barbaro page- you tell me, what will make all of you guys happy. You said Golden book was bogus, then I clarified that it is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. what will make you happy to fell cinfident that the Barbaro artcle is legit- you tell me.

You go and wipe out the whole thing because of some so called bogus source, I prove that the source is not bogus and you still question it. That make sense to you. you don't even give the the chance to explane that "Tiki-one" and "Tiki-two" are society names relevant to the group like "magog" for bones. This collectoron ebay knows that One for Jr. high Priest and two was for senior high priest. big woop. you can go on ebay right now andfine people with id's as bones and magog ans all sort of S&B stuff.

This guy is into the group like I am, and I'm into it solely because the head is a Barbaro. What is so strange about that?

The guy above said the ball is in my court to provide justification. I can give you every ISBN number to the soutces on that page. but you have to give me th echance to post. I have it in my research records right now, and can do it right now if you give me the chance. This is all a misunderstanding that went wrong.

Listen, every corcern that has been listed above- I can answer and explain, but every time I start there is an edit conflict, or someone else that jumps in, now we have the guy who is supicious from the SOSC article in there too, and some other person from PC jumped in and it's all over the place. And i lost my cool initially becuase of all of this, and maybee it is simply this crappy edit conflict sysrtem that Wikipedia has that is getting everyone testi. I don't even know where to start, but first to say that there is nothing bogus going on with anything that I have done, and lets begin by restoring the great body of knowlege of Barbaro family first, becuse to me, that is more important than any stupid college society anyway. Let me big there first.

I can provide you with every ISBN number for every source listed on the Barbaro page. I can do that immediately as well. If you like the golden book referenced in be spelled out in italian rather than english, it's no problem too, but english is acceptable- and more understandable to the Wikipedia audience. but I can Not provide any ISBN nubers to the sources if you keep reoving it. Please leave it.

OK, I brought the page back up as before. now, please leave so I can look at the sources on that page and check my records. I will have all ISBN's posted shortly- thank you for your concern Tiki-two

Wikipedia formatting and style

Please note several edits ending - 00:50, 5 July 2007 - by IP# 65.54.154.153. I attempted to put this article into a more acceptable Wiki format, but was promptly reverted by (from the info above) the original editor. Be aware that Wikipedia working standards for any article require that all material should be original unless shown as a direct quote and should not be under copyright. The format of the article is not dependent on any source or any sequence borrowed from a source, but should comply with Wikipedia standards. As content is under dispute and the article protected, I will not revert. But I will assert that the current article content and format due not meet minimum Wikipedia style and standards. Once content issues are resolved, I would urge a major cleanup. 65.54.155.36 05:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I hereby acknowledge my edits of 5 July 2007 (by IP# 65.54.154.153) as well as the edit above by User:65.54.155.36. When working from a computer I do not own, I am sometimes not able to sign in and so may show up with an MSN IP#. I will be pleased to help on the copy editing of this page once things have settled down. GwenW 20:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Dear editor,

• Please restore the Barbaro family article to it's former status. What has begun as a misunderstanding about Golden Book also being the same thing as Libro D'Oro has resulted in much damage on Wikipdedia. The previous page for Barbaro family had sources that are completely verifiable by ISBN numbers. This isn't right, and this damage was primarily caused by volunteers of Wikipedia that focus on secret college societies, and have it in there mind that there is some hoax going on here. A great shame, indeed. So much knowledge has been lost on this Barbaro page. Also one of Fenwick High School's in Oak Park's most illustious Alumni have also been removed from that page's "Noted Alumni" list. He does not deserve that. I commend Wikipedia in their desire to stop bogus knowledge, but sometimes it goes too far with more damage than good.

Corvus has destroyed this page. Look at all of these inaccuracies because of what he has done:

• The family is called "The Eternal Family" not eternal that has been destroyed.

• The family has two major divisions, one considered royal and one not, and one branch now extinct. Where is any of that referenced now.

• Where is the silk branch

• Where are the famous nicknames

• Where are the important contributions to history.

• Where is the Order of the Dragon

• Where is Villa Barbaro- arguably there most important and influential piece of architecture in Western civilization.etc.etc.etc.

I am just so disgusted with all of this. This article was butchered by someone that does not know the first thing about anything that he destroyed. The article as it was before he got there was PERFECT and ACCURATE as inspired from the encyclopedia of nobility with all sources listed and all ISBN numbers attainable. Just absolutely disgusting what has happened, and Vitus Barbaro that is a very private man, does not deserve to be discredited. Corvus could of contacted Fenwick very easily by sending an email to his High School's Alumni director that would have verified everything as true and accurate. Everything that Corvus has done in relation to this and other related articles was uncalled for, unchecked, and based on his ignorance that he did not understand that Golden Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro. and you can white wash all of this over, but this nonsense began from panic, poor communication, his conspiracy mindset, and Wikipedia's poor edit conflict format when trying to post explanations. I can not express how disgusted I am with all of this. It is just outrageous. Your team out there believe that the answer to all knowledge is a google search away- if being a true historian was only so simple.

Marchesi of San Giorgio in Wikiepedia that uses the source "unpublished research papers" is perfectly acceptable, but The Golden Book that Wikipedia even has an article on is completely suspect. Just outrageous!

So much damage has occured with The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent as well, after everyone got into a panic over that site. I tried to explain to the fellow that wanted to post pictures from EBAY onto the SOSC page, that he should first give me a chance to look into it before doing so, becuase he labled all the ebay info right away for people to be able to do that. I removed that info of his statement for protection from people wanting to post, so I could check both sources first, my Debris source and the Ebay site. I had to check the Debris source because it is not like I have the letter sitting in front of my face 24/7. When I checked ebay, it was the letter, but in comparison to the letter in the Debris it was without question different. The Debris letter shows lined paper, two signatures, yellow paper not white, and what is clearly a more stronger darker printed image at the top. Without any doubt that letter was a 1992 copy which was also verified when I read portions about the exhibition again, like I have every detail about the exhibition memorized and it is so strange for me to go back and refresh my knowledge. When knowledge was verified, I replaced everything the gentleman wrote and then some and cited the article with the new ebay info, the proper way to go about it. I also removed some things the man said that may have pointed to forceablely to who the head was, I wanted to also look into that before naming him- shoot me for being cautious and responsible. Moreover, no where on the ebay's listing does it ever say it was a genuine antique letter vs. a replica- and it sold for $9.99. I think true antique collectors know real things from copies and bid accordingly. Any true antique would have gone for higher. Then everyone got into a stink about Tiki-two and Tiki-one, but , Tiki, which is a mystical god (like that would be unappropriate for this group that focuses on mysticism) was used like Bones using Magog-know one asked that. One was for junior high priest and two was for senior high priest- and that ebay guy that was using it didn't even do it right when I checked. He is labled as Tiki-1 not Tiki-one. Moreover, that 1992 letter and that guy out there intersted in SOSC stuff is great proof of this group's importance and interest by many people. How many people are there on ebay right now that have Bones inspired ID's and collecting similar Bone's memorabilia- but I guess that is a conspiracy. You just think SOSC is some unheard of thing, but not to people in the midwest or Purdue and not to Purdue's current honor society that still uses Skull and Crescent as their name (go ahead and google that point), and not to TNE Alpha that still honors the SOSC group of Purdue at Wesleyan in their records even though the two groups don't even like each other (go ahead and check TNE page and the official website for chpater list #29- Purdue split -off of Skull and Cresent). So what we also end up with in all of this panic has also destroyed the article of the Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent which was existing perfectly fine with a constructive and healthy talk page based on an article that was perfectly sourced. Then people say what does The Golden Book have to do with secret societies- well if you checked, you would see that Vitus has his school's: Fenwick, Purdue etc, his clubs like SOSC all listed in it - a very relevant source I would say. It even says he was Senior class vice-pres in High School, Chairman of the Newpaper (Wick). Go ahead and go into Fenwick's webpage and find The alumni director Debbie Thompson and email her say, "I understand that there was a 1991 student of Fenwick that is now listed in the encylopedia of nobility as being an alumni- At Fenwick he was called Vito Albergo, but since he has been invested with his noble and royal names of Barbaro and Grand Prince. It says here that this Barbaro fellow was senior class vice -pres and is believe he went on to Purdue as well- can this be verified" You will get a big fat yes! Because eveything on both Fenwick, Barbaro family, and The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent was 100% accurrate with all sources give.

If Wikipedia has any honor it will return what was valid and true and took a lot of hardwork to create, research, fact check, and source.

• Sir, this is just pathetic. Why can't you just admit to having been caught in some sort of hoax? You are going to such great lengths here to try and make excuses while it is clear to all wikipedia veterans that you are simply a hoaxer. The letter you are referencing discredits you, which is why you bastardized the item number to a pair of lady's shoes. Come on Tiki-1 of Ebay, Tiki-Two of wikipedia. We see you. You have been utterly exposed.--76.83.249.234 08:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I have changed nothing- I am the one that put the source on the site for people to check for themselves. What the hell are you talking about- and what control do I have over Ebay to change anything. You are the one that is trying to gloss over that you did not fact check that the Golden Book is the same thing as Libro d'Oro

You can try all you want ,Corvus, by hiding out by not posting your ID, because you know you made a mistake, you began to edit before checking things because all of you secret society guys think eveything is s hoax. And I guess all that info on Barbaro was a hoax too, right- just like Palazzo Barbaro Curtis that was once written and now is gone; Umm, why don't you google that and tell me if the info that is now removed doesn't pop up as valid, as well as eveything else I told you to do. Please, you will go out of your way to cover up an gloss over the most obvious thing that started this all- and nothing more- you did not fact check Golden Book. And say what ever you want- it is listed right up there at the top of this page for all to see, unless you try to edit it out, and I quote, "There are no such books- according to google" which made you go off on an editing spree with anthing that had that source it. That is the truth!

---

PLEASE STOP BARBARO HOAX!

Dear Wikipedia, I tried to blank the page previously and confirmed that there is an official Barbaro hoax going on. I don't know why it was reverted, but please read the previous page. Thank you very much

There is something very strange going on here that might be coming either from a Fenwick student or someone close to the family, but I am confirming that Vitus Sebastian Barbaro was never involved in any organization known as "The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent" or the "Pugalist Club".

I am getting something that says new messages, but I don't know what this means exactly- I am not very familiar with Wikipedia, but the Barbaro family has been notified of this hoax and the family is confirming that Mr. Barbaro is not involved with and secret clubs or fraternities. Please remove any of this. Please contact Fenwick high school as well,I will be notifing them about this hoax. Someone please repond to advise me!

• New messages means than someone put something on your talk page. See the upper right-hand corner of the page? That's how you get there. Or, you could just click on the link that pops up when you get new messages. Also, please sign what you say, suing four tildes, so we know you said it. Gscshoyru 12:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Barbaro is the legitimate titled name holder as expressed previously on the Barbaro page, but Vitus Sebastian Barbaro has never been involved in any secret society. Please clarify this. I think someone is having fun with his title of Grand Prince of Transylvania and trying to make look like Dracula. Mr. Barbaro is a gentleman and has never been involved in any questionable groups. I was notified that the family was also linked to a UFO group as well. These are all lies. Please correct Barbaro family. They are an ancient and honorable family. Thank you

Thank you for responding, I don't know what is going on, but I work for Vitus Barbaro, and we were notified about some hoax going on with Wikipedia. I am new to this. I don't know how to sign, but I will use "BFR" to mean Barbaro family representative. I have just finished to contact Fenwick about this problem so the school is completely aware as well. We don't know where this is coming from,. But we think maybe a Fenwick student or possiblty a relative of Vitus who is angry that he is the sole recipient of all of the family's titles, maybee even a disgrunteled employee that works with me. I was sent to help Wikipedia clarify any questions you may have about validity, I will stay on line to answer, thank you "BFR"

Will someone please respond again about this issue "BFR"

Thank you Gwscshoyru for informing me that I should post my concern here and Wikipedia will take it from there. Like I said, I really don't know what is going on, if this is a Fenwick prank or someone working here, I still have to confront my employees about this, I know there is jelousy because he bears all of those titles, and they don't. Maybe they were trying to sabatoge his image. I really don't know, but for the record, let me just clarify this, Mr. Vitus Barbaro has never been involved in any cult or UFO group. The only fraternity he was involved with was Phi Kappa Phi, which is an honors club for good grades. When I looked at the Barbaro family page last week, that had all of the information about the family members and different branches, the Albergo and San Giorgio etc. That page was completely correct. He is titled with a chinese title and the transylvanian title, he is a car designer, just like it said. That was all 100% on, and all of that was all true. All those historical points and details came from the official family record up till 20O7 and the sources on the bottom of the article are the official sources given in the public record, titled the "Encyclopedia of Nobility", that can be purchased publically as a published book by Alvise Zorzi who is the historian/author who formulates and writes this Encyclopedia of Nobility, and he is the single most respected authority on the topic in the world, what he compiles is checked and becomes theofficial standard. It is published by the Committee for the Publication of the Source Material on the History of Venice in Venice, Italy and the info on that page was derived from the latest published edition of 2007.

Also, Vitus did just recently update his alumni record with Fenwick, that why I also think a prank may be coming from there as well. He was also added recently to Fenwick's page as well that was also accurate. My gut feeling is this was a stupid prank by some fool to try to make him look satanic. my suggestion would be to just return things back to the way they previously were- they were accurate and more informative before, but I leave it up to your good judgement from this point forward. Thank you very much "BFR"

---

Please Contact Fenwick High School to Verify that Previous Information for Barbaro family was Accurate

Dear Wikipedia,

Fenwick High School, where Mr. Barbaro attended, has been notified about the hoax that has unfortunately destroyed valuable information about the Barbaro family that would have been useful to all searching Wikipedia. Please contact Fenwick Alumni director Debbie Thompson via email to verify previous knowledge that existed before the hoaxer arrived (dthompson@fenwickfriars.com). Thank you

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.97.195 (talk • contribs) Corvus cornix 17:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

One wonders why an alumni director would know the history of an obscure family from Italy. Corvus cornix 17:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Now we have hoaxes within hoaxes and an ever-widening network of same being posted by the same person ("Tiki-Two") both in articles and within their discussion pages. Tiki-Two is a wikipedia polluter and his IPs should be banned.--76.83.249.234 20:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

We are posting on both sites because related damage was also done to Fenwick as well. thank you

I'm getting really tired of dealing with this, but I'd like to ask you, How do you account for the fact that the Wikipedia user who is responsible for "the hoax that has unfortunately destroyed valuable information about the Barbaro family" is exactly the same user who supplied all that "valuable information about the Barbaro family" in the first place? And since you seem to be close to Mr. Vitus Barbaro, perhaps you could supply some verifiable sources to establish his existence, and if he indeed exists, to establish his being notable in any way at all. Deor 18:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

We are sorry that all of this happened, and I truely appoligize for this hoaxer, the very hoaxer that did this is the one that notified the family about the hoax, as a cover up for his wrong doing, and he has since come clean. What he did was honorable at first, he found the Barbaro page flagged and in need of expansion, and used the appropriate source to expand it with. If you go back to 4;30 6 July 2007 Tiki-two, that page is accurate as derived from info found in the the encyclopedia of nobility and sourced as such. Then he went to Fenwick's page, that was also in need of expansion, and expanded it properly too becuase he knows the school personally, and yes the info before the hoax is accuarte and well sourced- he did actually go look for proper sources. So Ironically, the very person that did this damage is the same person that should also be commended for a job well done, those were two great pages that were accurate with substantial knowledge present. But I don't know what to tell you after that, his buddies used the very knowledge that they compiled, which was accurate, and then just took a left turn as a joke that went to far by building from that true knowledge to create a phoney cult society and were basing purchases that Mr. Barbaro made on Ebay as evidence to support this phony society, Mr, Barbaro likes to collect antiques, and Purdue memorabilia, He also studied philosophy at the University of Illinois (so he also collects philosophical antiques like that letter) he also worked for the Art Institute of Chicago as a buyer before going on to be a top car designer- you don't here muh about him because usually with Ferrri, the design house of Pininfarina get all the credit and Mr. Barbaro has remained under the radar, but Vitus is not that old, actually he goes by V.V., and maybee in the future he may start to become more highly visible, but those that know of him regard him very highly, he is multi-talented. And that is what has happened- there are two things,the barbarfamily page and the Fenwick page are accurate. I went back a checked,for example the architect that now needs citing, was perfectly cited well. Go on line and seaech that source and it will have the architect in talking about his work in Notre Dame. so Fenwick and Barbaro family were genuinely good articles for wikipedia. And the Barbaro family now on Wikipedia is way off, there is an Albergo and San giorgio division- everyting as it was saiid before wa true and sourced properly. Now, I need your help, I don't know what to do to prove to you V.V. is real. you can contact Fenwick , that is one way, I can mail you a copy of his drivers liscense, that is another way. I can mail you his design work with Ferrari. All of the living Barbaro's are also notable to bring the family to the present they are called "The Eternal Family" as mentioned and listing those members in the way thearticle did was very relevent. I can also mail you his coat of arms, or letterhead.I don't know what else to tell you. Please advise-I ned your help.

• You may need psychiatric help which is beyond wikipedia's purview. If you are planning on fobbing off items you bought on ebay as secret society and black nobility related items, I suggest you brush up on your hoaxing skills. Fraud won't work for you as a hobby or as a criminal enterprise. You will get caught, especially if you claim to be a noble named VV Barbaro. Tiki-1 is the ebay name of the hoaxer. Tiki-two is the wikipedia name. The IPs he uses usually begin with 65, and include 4.142.114.3 and 65.54.98.111. Wikipedia hoaxing is a nuisance, however falsifying provenance is illegal, and masquerading as nobility for fun and profit is as well. Those two fraudulent possibilities regarding this hoax are the only things that make plausible sense regarding this hoaxer, either that or it's just a teenager (or frat member with similar mentality) pulling a prank or a mentally disturbed person doing this. But the existence of the ebay purchases related to the hoaxer's posts suggests the aforementioned attempt at building a fraud base for a fake identity and falsified provenance. You have been warned Tiki-1/Tiki-Two/IP 4.142.114.3 and 65.54.98.111.

Hyper_individualist@yahoo.com --76.83.249.234 20:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Additionally, what blatant absurdity it is to cite privacy concerns related to ebay elsewhere within discussion pages when it is YOU who continue to blow it by saying the Tiki-1 account belongs to him and going on to give so much more information about this alleged person who more than likely doesn't actually exist outside of your mind, such as it is. This is a sad case. If he were real and you were concerned about his ebay privacy, then you wouldn't have exposed it this way! HOAX HOAX HOAX! Hoaxes within hoaxes, lies within lies expanding ever outward! A huge bundle of nonsense that seeks to suck in everything it can like a black hole! It's hilarious in a twisted cretinous sort of way. I'm sorry, but I just couldn't hold at least that small measure of amused exasperation back. This will be a thorn in wikipedia editors' sides for a long time without an IP purge.

hyper_individualist@yahoo.com--76.83.249.234 21:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Individualist, I understnad your anger, and rightfully so, but the situation is under control, you are right, it is the product of a stupid punk, and he is being delt with. It will not happen again. We are very sorry for any distress the situation has called, but it is truely under control by Mr. Dunning from Wikipedia- I refer you to the Fenwick High School Talk Page in Oak Park for validation. You do not need to respond, it will be taken care of. Please have a good day sir.

Let's put in what is known to be true.

I don't want to be the mediator here, and I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family, but I do know that the first paragraph of this version of the page is true [2] and completely uncontraversial. So can be re-instated quite safely. Giano 10:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Taking your word for it, I reintroduced that section and wikified it a bit. Do you have any opinion on the remainder of what is currently on the page? It looks okay, but it never hurts to have an extra eye on it from someone with a measure of familiarity with the subject. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I would have thought, what is there now, would easy enough to check out. The Barbaro are an old, established and well recorded Venetian family, of the reinstated paragraph, the only thing I would like to see cited to a reference is the connections to the House of Grimaldi, I would have though this was more likely to be through a Genoese branch of the family. Venice's Golden book (Il Libro d'Oro) dates from about (I think) about 1320, so that should be mentioned as the article does insinuate (at least to me) that it is before this time that they changed their name. So all the people listed under the section "EARLY BARBARO PATRICIANS" can't have had that name if the they did not change their name until they were listed in the book - so either my date is wrong, or the information is wrong. I suspect it is the latter. This whole page has a grounding of truth, but I did not know, as claimed above, that Venice was still publishing its own Libro d'oro I though they were now included collectively in the Il Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana

Regarding the article phrases such as this:

• "The Barbaro mystique is that they are the only family without a beginning and without an end, The Eternal Family" are plainly rubbish and have no place on Wikipedia.
• "The current legitimate holder of the Albergo branch's titled names is Vitus Sebastian Barbaro (born on July 27, 1973). His father is Sebastiano (born on July 18, 1935). His mother is Baronessa Grazia Talarico di Capace (born on July 2, 1946)." cannot be correct unless his father is dead which the article does not claim, until that sad day the son can only be "nobile di Albergo branch's titled names"
• "The Crown of a Grand Prince [Grand Prince is a very rare title that is about equal in rank to a King" - complete rubbish. Very rare it is true but King no.
• "In the United States, the Barbaro legacy is most apparent in the design of the U.S. Capital Building. The original design by William Thornton was directly inspired by Villa Barbaro." Here is Villa Barbaro [3] I think people can draw their own conclusions as to the amount of inspiration it provided.
• "The building was inspirational not only for it's aesthetic form, but also for the character of the family it represented" No, I don't think so. This is all beginning to sound horribly like an Italian version of the Arbuthnots.
• "Clearly, The Eternal Family's legacy will always be engrained in America, in Europe, in Western Civilization, and in the world." Again no.
• "Vitus traditionally goes by V.V. Barbaro, Vitus Barbaro or Vitus Sebastian Barbaro after he was invested with the right to use the family's titled names. " Invested by whom exactly - I would love to know the answer to that - the present Holy Roman Emperor perhaps?
• "His Illustrious Highness The Princely Count Vitus Sebastian Barbaro, Patrician of Venice of The Grand Princes of Transylvania and The Venetian Barons" A patrician of Venice would not include the lower title Venetian barons after after his name. In fact it is doubtful a Patrician of venice would use any other title - we are talking about a cast and class of merchant-aristocracy that generally looked down on titles as vulgar, basically telling Napoleon where to stuff them. Even today they are very proud of ther Venetian heritage, almost to the exclusion of all other titles. I think young Vitus is getting a little carried away here, and may have a problem wanting to be called "Illustrious Highness" on the fondamenti of Venezzia.

In short yes the Barbaro existed, yes they were powerful, and like all old aristocratic families are connected to influential families and have numerous cadet branches. However, I can think of dozens of more influential Italian families than the Barbaro. This reads to me like a Barbaro across the Atlantic looking for some famous titled ancestors. In one of the most recent social history book of Venice "Venice" by Francesco da Mosto - the Barbaro do not have one listing among the references to the ancient powerful of Venice. So let's not get carried away with this family's fame and influence. When this page is unprotected I suggest any fact not well known is tagged as such and then deleted after a short interval. Giano 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

It does say that "Sebastiano was an artist, art restorer, and international art dealer in Italy, France, and the United States. He specialized in dealing with mid-century modernists such as Enrico Donati, Lucien Ruolle, and artists of the Peggy Guggenheim circle.". So I presume that the wording indicates that Sebastiano is no longer alive? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 16:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

---

An Educated Response to Correcting the Barbaro Family Page

• I'm curious, how does a person that first claims that they don't know that much about this family, all of a sudden has all of the answers. You really are not well informed. They are specifically called "The Eternal Family" as well as having gone from from their previous motto "Circlo Moro" "ring of the moore" to the eternal ring of blood of the Barbaro family. That is why Romania is so important to them which is clearly discussed in Vittorio Spretti's work which was mentioned within the text. Spretti, also specifically made the statement about their high character alone over any other family. It is written in Spretti's work. I know for a fact, and those discussions of Spretti were also mentioned in the other sources given, so there was need to source Spretti as well.

• Your theory about "nobile di Albergo" is wrong. I don't even think you know what nobile is. It is a specific title given to a Venetian noble when Venice was briefly under Austrian control. Unlike other titles that were specific to a fuedal estate, Nobile granted power within a whole general region. And Vitus can easily be designated as the head in accordance with Venetian noble custom.

• I think you are confused as to Italian noble customs and designations. Giano 17:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Grand Prince being a title "about equal in rank to a king" is absolutely true. Some say that it falls between King and Grand Duke, others say it is more like a king. And for the Habsburgs and Russian Royalty, it was definetly defined as King.

• It is not about equal rank with a King, it is a bestowed title, a Grand Prince no matter how grand is a vasaal a King is not. Giano 17:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Your percieved opinion about the Capital Building only mildly being derived from Villa Barbaro is also wrong. It is a fact to be fully derived. Before Villa Barbaro was made, there was no other villa like it in the wold- it was ground breaking and revolutionary for renaissance architecture. It was the direct source for many buildings including Buckingham Palace. Thomas Jefferon was a friend of the Barbaro family. He specifically got Palladio's book called the "4 Books of Architecture" from the Barbaro family and when Jefferson, who was also an architect, came back to the U.S.after staying with the Barbaros in Italy at their villa, he specifically designed his own home after Palladio's Rotunda and specifically accepted the U S Capital submission based on the "Noble" character of the Barbaro family. In Jefferson's own words.

Jeferson referred to 4 books as his bible, and had known of them for years before he had even heard of the Barbaro. Giano 17:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• If the page was intact the way it should be, it was clarified that after 1933 noble/royal families own their titled names. The investitute they are referring to is when Vitus became the official head of the family and legally took on the right to the family's names which no one else in that family has right to. It was made very clear in the article.

No it is not, it says he was invested, there ws ni investiture for the simple reason there was no monarch to invest him with these titles. Giano 17:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Your theory about having a branch from Genoa is also bogus, no such thing. Your theory about Venetians having a cadet branch is also bogus, no such thing. Zorzi ,the expert, makes that very clear in the sources listed. This Barbaro branch was a cadet branch to the Imperial house as perfectly explained in detail on the original page.

• I merely question the Genoese Grimaldi family marrying into the Venetian nobility, I do not say it did not happen, I merely ask for a reference. Giano 17:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Illustrious" is not there to be fancy. It is the specific "style" for a princely count- used universally for all princely counts. And Styles like (His Royal Highness etc.) are manditory to establish royal rank. There are families like Prince Borghese who are using Prince and are not royal, they are only nobles, and when Princess Diana had her style of HRH removed by the queen after her divorce was a big deal to those that know these things. It meant that she was no longer considered royal, she technically was only a noble princess there after.

• The removal of Diana, Princess of Wales' HRH was probably ilegal as there is no provision in British law for a non-royal princess, however. It is not used universlly, the 1st Duke of Marlborough was a Holy Roman Prince his family do not use the title. Neither do most other descendents of such people. Giano 17:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Morover, Zorzi the single most authority on Venietian nobility/royaly, as well as Basehart whose sources were listed in that article specifially call them "the Imensly Noble" and the "Most Illustrious family's of Venice". They controled the silk industry ;they are the most culturally influential family in the world by any all experts opinion.

I further encourage you to google "Barbaro San Vidal" and you will find that the majority of the whole Warburg and Courtauld Institute has devoted all of their work on this family alone. There is a listing right now just to study Daniele Barbaro's last will and testiment as a piece of 16th C. philosophy . It is number LXV by Bruce Boucher.

Then there is a second study of the "Divine Love and Veronese's Frescoes at the Villa Barbaro" by Jackson Reist of the same institute that made up the majority of the art bulletin in vol. 67. no. 4 Dec. 1985.

In short, what has occured to the Barbaro family page on Wikipedia and Vitus Barbaro being removed from Fenwick's noted alumni is outrageous. Vitus has always been considered America's prince. He is the only known royal born and raised in America, and has done much to help other Americans. I emailed the school and he is even in the works of talking to the students about aerospace car design and has even offerened to bring exotic cars over for display for the students to learn from as soon as the new construction of the school's expansion is completed. He is highly, highly regarded by anyone that knows him, and everyone is falling into the trap that the hoaxer wanted of you- to try to discredit a great and honrable family. There should be no question that the Barbaro family page and the Fenwick page be brought back to the way they were and immediate removal of those two stupid secret societies that were nothing more than a stupid prank that is now hurting innocent people and everyone's availability to the most fullest and accurate knowledge. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.155.41 (talk • contribs).

• "Vitus has always been considered America's prince. He is the only known royal born and raised in America" - Complete rubbish he is not Royal and he is not a prince, and Prince Vitus had better get used to it - how are you suggesting he is known Principe di X, where is the X? - that should be easily checkable. Giano 17:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• I still remain astounded that the person considered "America's prince" gets not even a single Google hit, Google Books hit, or Google news hit (archives included). Obviously we Americans don't threat our reigning monarchy nearly so well as most other countries. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• .........and as for the external link leading to this [4] to belive that one would have to be as daft as those who pay a fortune for a copy of that coat of arms - it is rubbish with a capital R. Those are not princely arms in Italy or anywhere else for that matter. Incidentally that site says the family are of Sicilian origin - Oh just beam me up! Giano 18:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• PS any Barbaro out there considering buying that "crest" should be aware that a "crest" is just the emblem on top of a coat of arms not the whole thing as that site suggests. Giano 18:24, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• First off, by the expression "America's Prince" I don't literally mean that he is a Prince ruling over America. What I mean is he is someone royal born in America. He is also one of the most grounded and hard working people you will meet, so you should not also assume that wants special privelege either. He is an American of noble/and royal heritage lets not read into that anymore than needs to.

• Those sites of arms are complete bull- your right. And if the article was intact it also explains why those sites have to do that because true nobility own their titled name and arms as property. Those sites have to have to create bogus arms to not get in trouble. Sicily is bull too- there has never been a branch from sicily of Barbaros. They are a Venetian family and if the article was in tact it also says that the Albergo branch was a cadet line of the Habsburg House through their Grand Principality of Transylvania.

• All of this was already explained in the full article. What is all of this talk of Principe di X. If the article was in tact it explained it all. Gefursteter Graf, Grand Prince of Transylvania, Princely Count to the house of Habsburg. The meaning of Princely count. Everything.

• All of those comments that were added were way off base too. 4 books of architecture was a book writen by Palladio on architectural design called "Quatrro Libri" in Italian. No where in the article did it ever say marring into Grimaldi family, it said connection through an "Albergo". Go back and read it. Also, the confusion over the Barbaro family that has occurred becasue of this hoax is not about this information. It is about some's nonsense secret society that was made up and then got attached to this becasue they were saying Vitus was the head of this secret society, which he is not. That is why we are here today. You want me to address all of these issues ,that are not even issues, if the article was intact. You want me to address about marriage of Grimaldi family, and vassal kings, and investiture that was completely answered perfectly in the original article. This is silly. It explains what a cadet branch is, it explains what an "Albergo" is, it explains about being "invested" with title names. The article explained it all!

We are now in a conversation that has absolutely no benifit. Why should we be questioning if the Barbaro family was married to the Grimaldi. The simple and only answer without any question is NO. This isn't even an issue that needs to be discussed, Neither is Principe di X, Etc. Return the article the way it was before the jerk hoaxer brought all of this on and we are done. All the answers you need are already answered. Why should anyone be in a discussion of Principe di X. When there is no Principe di X in the Barbaro family or anywhere in the article or anywhere else in the world.

Look at all of those names of members listed at the bottom page now. Before, everyone of those people had information about them with dates. Now, that is all gone. Where is the explanation about the different branches, where is the explanation about Villa Barbaro, where is the explanation about the 2 different Palazzos, Where is the discussion about the symbols on Villa Barbaro, Where is the discussion of the Chinese title, Where is the discussion....This is stupid guys, we understand what has happend with the hoaxer now. We just have bring back up the page as it was, and we are done. We are arguing in circles now over things that don't need to be discussed like "if the Barbaro family married Grimaldis".

Where is the explanation about silk production, where is the explantion of the cures with Louis Pasteur, where is the "Farfalla di Barbaro" that is still used today, where is the discussion of Prince Wei long, where is the discussion of everything that was important. The article was perfect and complete before!

My God, not even Alvise who was elected doge is even on the page- how much more venetian can you get. And what about even current Barbaro family members like the von Zimmermanns that even have their own individual page on Wikipedia but are not mentiond in the Barbaro family- or Sebastiano's link to the Guggenhein circle that is profoundly important to the history of art and it's connection to Jackson Pollock and putting the American modern art scene on the map, and Vitus's work with Ferrari on the Enzo the 4th greatest ranked car in the history of automibles. And what about Vitus's mother who is a descendant of Italy's first king and conquer of Rome- I would say that is pretty important to Barbaro history because it is pretty important World history!

Where is the Barbaro contribution to changing the abuses of the church, where is the Barbaro discovery of sexual reproduction by patronage of Fallopio, where is the patronage of Galeleo that results in the telescope as we know it today. Where is everything thats is BARBARO! Everything that this family is known for, everything that this family is famous for- Everything that is BARBARO! Even our Kentucky derby champion horse was named after a foxhound who was named after Daniele Barbaro. That specific foxhound belonged to Bonheur. and when Barbaro the horse got hurt at the preakness. Roy Jackson himself contacted Vitus and even has a letter to prove it addresed as "N.H. Count Vitus Sebastian Barbaro". Everything about this page has been ruined now. It's meaning, it's significance, it's purpose in relation to context. The page was perfect before the jerk hoaxer came along and ruined it for all of us. This is dumb, we just need to return the page before the jerk hoaxer started, and prove that his vandalism got him no where. If we let him get away with this than he won and made all of us look like fools.

Oh, this is classic, I had the opportunity to look at the link, just now, on the bottom of the Barbaro family page that leads to the Barbaro site that has a bogus company that must sells fake crests otherwise the true titled noble family's of the world could sue them for identity theft. The Barbaro arms is the ring of blood, a red annulet on a silver field, as previously expained perfectly before. Could this bogus seller go any more out of his way to protect his back than by using the most exact opposite thing he could find Blus vs. Red; Gold vs. Silver; Lines vs. a Ring. The true Barbaro coat of arms is carved right on top of Villa Barbaro. Go google, Villa Barbaro right now and find a good picture of the front of the building that shows the ring on top of the double headed eagle as perfectly explained in the article as it was before the hoaxer ruined it. Could this current Barbaro page be any more inaccurate?

For those of you having a hard time finding a good picture of the TRUE Barbaro coat of arms do this: do a search online, not through google, just a regular online search, and type in "Malta Barbaro", because as you may remember before the page got ruined, there is a difference in the arms between the "St. Georges" and the "Albergo" line, the St. Georges have a division in their arms because of the mariage to Countess von Zimmerman, Oh I'm sorry, you wouldn't know that because it was removed. Any how, type in Malta Barbaro and the 5th entry on the page should be "Search Malta Maltese Surname Connection". Then find the B's and click Barbaro, and what do you have?: exactly what was written before, but now is all gone. What was written said their was a division in the Maltese arms that had the ring of blood in the upper half and 3 black greyhound heads in the lower half because of the marriage to Countess von Zimmerman. The page even went into greater detail about what a count's coronet looked like and what a marquis' coronet looked like. This picture shows two pearls between strawberry leave, which means it was for the marquis of the line vs. a corronet with 9 pearls which would have been for the count of the line. You could have known this, but the page that once had that imformation is now destroyed and can easily be brought back for the hoaxers damage.

• Regarding the claim that the Villa Barbaro was Thorneton's inspiration for The Capitol building in Washington - these edits fully referenced [5] and [6] seems to answer that. At the moment I think all but the first paragraph of the article needs to be deleted Giano 21:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh really, first off using a Wikipedia source of edits is hardly a primary source to base historical information on. No one in Wikipedia references an article by referencing another Wikipedia article. It is not done. And if you would have checked the source of "Venetian Villas" by Michelangelo Murano and Paolo Marton, as it once was listed, It is talked about. In the meantime, why don't you do this, go into google and type in 'Metropolitain Museum of Art in New York ". Go into the museum site and on the left in search type in "Barbaro". What comes up? Only two of the some of the greatest Barbaro treasures to be found in the 1# ranked museum in America. 1st, there is "The Glorification of the Barbaro Family" you would have known this before, but too bad it's gone. What does that world class historian write, and I quote, "The Barbaro were among the MOST ILLUSTRIOUS Venetian families". Umm, seems like this world class historian thinks those Barbaros were pretty darn important.Then what is listed below that, Oh my God, it is the Quattro Libre (4 Books), you remeber those, don't you, those books that Jefferson brought back after he was a guest of the Barbaro family in Italy and used ss a guide to design Montecello, something that is written right on the display when you go to the Met to look at it for real. But you don't know that because you are uninformed and would have benifitted from the true article. Moreover, you have zero credibility to this issue already with your nonsense of Principe di x etc. You have already said yourself, and I quote, "I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family". Your opinion carries no weight. This was a perfectly good article that a hoaxer has taken everyone on a ride with. When are we going to have perfectly good knowledge restored?

WHEN IS THIS PAGE GOING TO RESTORED WITH IT'S FORMER KNOWLEDGE?

Lets talk somemore about important knowledge that has been lost. Remeber the important portrait of Daniele Barbaro about him being painted in the black and white robes of the Dominican Order rather than the red garments of the cardinals of the "old" church and in his hand were the important writing that he did and not a bible or a picture of a saint that would have been typical before. Remember that? Let's take a look shall we: go type in www.portraitgallery.org.uk on a regular online search. This will lead you to the very important royal gallery in London. Then when you get to the page, do a search for "Barbaro". What do you get? Well you get exactly what was written and even more. There is the portrait of Cardinal Daniele in the Black and White garments just as describednad and in is hands are and I quote, "on the table are two volumes of his REKNOWN translation". Then go right below that picture, what do we have, we have more very important stuff, we have the "Grand Canal, Venice" painted by Monet who was able to do his work in Venice because the Barbaro family paid and supported both him and his wife, and I quote, "where he and his wife had lodgings".When will this page be restored to it's former state, it is quite obvious that what was listed before was perfectly good knowledge. The page was perfect and existed without even a single remark on it's talk page because it was 100% perfect. When will the page be corrected?

Well, lets now see what an Ivy League school thinks about Villa Barbaro. Is it really as important as people say? Go do an online search under "Barbaro Columbia University" and then go into the 6th entry listed titled "Columbia University-Universita Ca Foscari" Check that out, Columbia University has a whole summer course to go specifically to Padua and VILLA BARBARO. It is Art History course number S4430. So out of all the places they could go, and out of all the things they could see in Italy, and out of all the beautifull buildings and villas. Where do they take their students to, VILLA BARBARO. Villa Barbaro is the single most influental building that inspired countless buildings across the world. When is this page going to be restored properly?

Now lets see what else Columbia University thinks about the Barbaro family. Remember that portion about how a Barbaro family member translated important philosophical works that are now in the special collections of Columbia University. Is that really true? Do an online search for "Ermolao Barbaro Columbia University" and go to the 4th one: Treasures:Columbia Rare Book & Manuscript Libraby. Umm, it's listed as "treasure" that sound pretty valuable and important to me. I wonder what it is? Look at that, it is the actual translation of Aristole from ancient Greek into a modern language by Francesco Barbaro and Ermolao Barbaro. It was also given as a gift by the famous George Plimpton. You are telling me that if these two Barbaros didn't actually take time to learn a dead obscure greek language and used their knowledge to translate what Aristole wrote, the world today would not even know what Aristole written- you mean they saved Aristole for the whole world today- you mean they actually impacted the world that much? YES! When is the Barbaro page going to be restored back to the way it should!

Now lets look into the most remarkable part of the former article.It said the Barbaro branch of the Albergo line went to China and got a silk moth specific to Asia and then they created this rare type of silk moth that had dwarfed wings that was so astonishing, it even made them become Chinese princes. That can't be true, there isn't any rare moth that they specifically made, Right? Even Vitus Barbaro uses a symbol of this called the "Farfalla di Barbaro", Come on. This moth sounds like it is made up? If it exists, show me a picture of it. Fine, go to WWW.Wormspit.com. Now, once there, go into Bombyx mori. Do you rember Bombyx mori, it used to be in the article-but now it's gone. Wow, it even says it is the "China silkmoth" Now, see those picture poping up go down to number 38, pass number 39 which is a grouping of 7, and then go to 54. Oh my god! There it is! Exactly as descibed with its dwarf wings and inability to fly!

WE can go on forever with this. The former Barbaro page was perfect, we now have a page with a completely bogus arms link, and we have all of this proven knowledge gone.

With all do respect, and with your appreciation for safety, I think it is time to bring back the page the way it should be. We all understand what has occured, and the Barbaro page was perfectly fine. There is no justification for this block. All of the information on that page was true and verifiable from sources listed. Please return the page back for others to have access to valuable knowledge about the Barbaro family. It is information about our world history. It is information about all of our history. Thank you.

• The previous article with all information and sources was also a value research guide with excellent topical direction for the family, renaissance information, and excellent structure, meaning and context. It was genuinely better before. Thank youF550 04:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)