Talk:Theory of everything

Godel's Incompleteness Theorems

Should the page ever become unlocked, this section is in need of revision.

The claim that GIT is would block an TOE is presented one-sidedly.

In fact some experts disagree. See, for instance.

NYRB

and

C Shalizi

and the current page on Gödel's incompleteness theorems

"The conclusions of Gödel's theorems only hold for the formal systems that satisfy the necessary hypotheses (which have not been fully described in this article). Not all axiom systems do satisfy these hypotheses, even when these systems have models that include the natural numbers as a subset. For example, there are first-order axiomatizations of Euclidean geometry and real closed fields that do not meet the hypotheses of Gödel's theorems. The key fact is that the first-order languages used by these axiomatizations are not expressive enough to define the set of natural numbers or develop basic properties of the natural numbers."

"A second limitation is that Gödel's theorems only apply to systems that are used as their own proof systems. Gentzen's work shows the consequences of using a proof theory that is not the same theory, but a more powerful one."

1Z 17:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)1Z

I just have this to say. Godel's incompleteness theorem says you COMPLETELY CANNOT have a COMPLETE theory, unless it contradicts itself. Thus the incompleteness theorem itself is in contradiction of itself, because in order to say that nothing can be complete the theorem is acting like it IS complete, making a complete and "incontrovertible" statement about everything. So Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is simultaneously proving itself by disproving itself, and visa versa, it is disproving itself by proving itself. So is it true or false, that is the question?

Confusing it may be, but all that confusion is swept away when you consider that the number 1/0 is it's OWN contradiction that literally explains everything - a number that is both postive and negative - the absolute greatest value!! The end all of mathematics.

Let's consider the incompleteness theorem one more time. Nothing can be complete unless it is contradictory, right? Well you see!! Right there! The incompleteness theorem is giving us a choice. The theorem is representing the axiom of CHOICE in many ways, because according to it, we can choose one of two options!!! Option A is that nothing is complete and everything is consistent. Option B is that nothing is incomplete and everything is contradictory. Now I personally like it when everything is contradictory and nothing is incomplete! I know how to spot a good opportunity when I see one. For that is what makes life so great and what really exemplifies the IRONY OF TRUTH!!!

If we can define, by matter of choosing the best principle afforded to us, that nothing is incomplete and that everything is contradictory, then it would make sense that everything is defined as 1/0, and that this "one" thing divided by "nothing" must be both postive and negative at the same time. In conclusion, Godel's incompleteness theorem is defined as the opposite, the completeness theorem, when people finally have the logic and the wonder to define 1/0 and realize that it is the true paradox that defines everything.

sincerely, Archetype

None of that is correct as the links should make clear. 1Z 19:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)1Z

perhaps you'd like to explain it a bit more as I have gone to considerable lengths. -Arch—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.59.90.219 (talk • contribs).

"The conclusions of Gödel's theorems only hold for the formal systems that satisfy the necessary hypotheses...Not all axiom systems do satisfy these hypotheses,". So a TOE that does not satisfy the necessary hypotheses is immune from GIT.1Z 17:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

that still doesn't answer the question. What are the neccessary hypotheses? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.16.111.54 (talk) 17:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Jaki stuff is seriously problematic

Let me preface this by saying that I want to disassociate myself completely with the writings of Archetype above; what's written there, as far as I can tell, is complete nonsense.

However the Jaki section is still written far too uncritically. I haven't read Jaki's writings, but if the content is substantially as presented here, then he sounds to me like one of the many writers who attempt to apply the Gödel theorems outside of mathematics, without really understanding them. The results of these attempts are almost uniformly disastrous.

For example, the section claims

Gödel's theorem states that any non-trivial mathematical theory will be either incomplete or inconsistent.

Well, no, not exactly. It says that any recursively axiomatizable first-order theory in a recursively presented language, in which Peano arithmetic is relatively interpretable, is either incomplete or inconsistent. "Theory" is a word that has a very specific meaning in this context, and one not really all that closely related to what's usually understood by a physical theory. Physical theories generally accept mathematical truths as "ground truths" outside their purview; a theory that successfully explained all physical phenomena once allowed to access mathematical truth as an oracle would, I think, count as a "theory of everything" in the sense ordinarily understood in physics.

Anyway, my personal skepticism about Jaki's ideas per se are not really the point; the point is that I think he's being given undue weight in this article (and I think my background does qualify me to comment on that). --Trovatore 05:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Trovatore, I do not consider myself an expert on TOE and you can blame me for placing the piece about Godel in the article. I stumbled across it in the wiki a few months back and have heard it mentioned else where, so copied the section from the Jaki article onto here. There is more explanation, support (?) for this view and citations from this site [1]. Again, I'm no expert and will follow what someone far more qualified than myself thinks in regards to this. In the meantime I'm working my way through some background reading on godels theorem Thanks Pluke 21:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hawkings goes some way to supporting Jaki's theory, by making reference to Godel. Transcript of lecture he gave is here [2]. Is it worth putting this section back in? Pluke 14:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

This is also supported by Paul Davies in his book The Mind of God Pluke 17:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I certainly don't think I'd put it back the way it was; that put too much weight on Jaki, who as far as I can tell is a fairly minor figure in this area (though I could certainly be wrong about that). The Hawking talk might be worth a mention. But it was apparently directed at a fairly general audience, didn't get into a lot of detail. I'd be interested to know whether Hawking ever got into the subject in any more depth, whether he addressed the sorts of objections I raised at the top of this section. --Trovatore 19:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Trovatore. Also, I would like to add that Gödel's theorem has to do with mathematical languages in which one can have alternating universal and existential quantifiers. I do not think that physical theories are like that. A physical theory is more like a mathematical theory in which one can calculate properties of natural numbers which are recursive, like: whether they are prime or not; and whether they are quadratic residues or not. JRSpriggs 07:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-physical TOE's

If a T.O.E is a "hypothetical theory of theoretical physics", as it says in the introduction, why would philosophical and theological theories even need to be mentioned? And why is an obscure Finn the only philosopher mentioned? What about Hegel, Schopenhauer, Whitehead and so on? Surely every system-building metaphysician qualifies, if any one does.1Z 15:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

theories that do not make testable predictions

I propose we remove all theories from the "see also" list which do not make testable predictions. Furthermore, we should consider adding those that do, such as Heim theory—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.59.90.219 (talk • contribs).

Which theories make testable predictions is debatable..and will be debated!1Z 01:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

so then what is the criteria for inclusion? -fellow human

this is a start1Z 14:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

So then we can include Heim theory, the Aether Physics Model, Randell Mill's theory, and Kiril Chukanov's theory describing ball lightning. All of these theories have been published, experimentally tested, and proven. Rodin and Goschin proved Heim Theory, Aether Physics Model is proved mathematically by it's ability to do what the standard model couldn't and derive physical constants, Kiril Chukanov's theory does the same and it also has experiments with excited ball lightning to back it up, and Randell Mill's theory is also experimentally proven whereby he has been able to cause the electron in the hydrogen atom to move to a less than ground state releasing huge amounts of energy. All of these theories are correct that describe the new physics of post TOE science and they need to be listed and credit given where credit is due.

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Well, they can't all be true, since they say differnt things, and many of them don't seem to be aiming at everything. The TOE page should be about TOE`s not alternative or new theories.1Z 20:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC) e

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Actually they can all be true if they are all in concert with one another. But you are right, none of them defines everything specifically and mathematically. Only my theory has done that. 1/0=all. One thing divided by nothing. The unified field. Thank you.

Chomsky? (linguistics)

In "Teach Yourself Linguistics", Dr Jean Aitchison says that Noam Chomsky is also trying for a 'Theory of Everything' with his 'Minimalist Program'...Can we expand on that too? Zigzig20s 20:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It's supposed to be a physics page - I know religion and philosophy are mentioned, but they shouldn't be.1Z 21:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the phrase is not solely used in physics though...Zigzig20s 22:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The theory of everything is complete, in that it misses nothing. In it, Nothing is undefined.

TOE (Physics)

Wouldn't one way to stop this article being swamped is to rename it something like Theory of Everything (physics) ? That way most of the philosophical & religious POV's would be redundant here, and a lot of the crackpot theories can be dumped too. If the article is getting too long, and swamped by string theory (as opposed to other credible, scientific (if maybe not the most currently popular or widely held) theories), it could be split into Theory of Everything (string theory). Then a Theory of Everything page could be just left as a disambiguation page, spliting into the TOE's (physics, religion, philosophy, linguistics, biology, crackpot#1, crackpot#2, crackpot#3, ..., etc).

PS Not my field, but do preons deserve a mention on this page ?

The Yeti 14:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

That is a good suggestion. "Theory of everything" has a special meaning within physics. Whether a physical TOE is a theory of absolutely everything is not a question physics can answer.1Z 18:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved 1/0 junk below for its own discussion. I will move all such 1/0 references to there in future. The Yeti 00:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was NO CONSENSUS to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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Theory of everything → Theory of everything (physics) — better description of contents The Yeti 13:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC) See also paragraph above: TOE (Physics), and discussion below. -The Yeti 03:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Modified to sentence case. --Stemonitis 14:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support - as the title change would more accurately describe the contents (ie) physics concepts, not just theories of absolutely everything and anything, which otherwise do seem to creep into the topic. The title as it stands is too broad and open to interpretation, including non-physics concepts. The Yeti 03:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose — there are only two articles called something like "theory of everything", which are the physics term and the philosophical term. Given that a disambiguation page should never have fewer than three entries, one of the two should be at theory of everything, and the use by physicists is almost certainly the primary meaning (the philosophy term being derived from it). --Stemonitis 14:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
   • Comment I can't really agree that a dab page should never have just two entries. If a title has two meanings of roughly similar encyclopedic prominence, it's the only possible solution. Picking one of them as the primary meaning should be done only when that meaning is very substantially predominant or very substantially more encyclopedic. That said, I'm fairly neutral on the move; "theory of everything" may well be predominantly associated with physics. --Trovatore 01:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Oppose per Stemonitis, though I agree with Trovatore that there is no absolute necessity to avoid having dab pages with only two entries, I do think such minimal dab pages should be avoided whenever possible simply to limit the amount of distance between a user and an article. The term "Theory of Everything" in reference to physics is obviously the more prominent of the two, and should be the one under the main title. siafu 02:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Oppose per WP:DAB. The physics use of the term is distinctly more prominent then the philosophical meaning. Looking at the "What links here", one can easily see the prominent role that it has in physics and well as relevant mention in non-physics related articles. 205.157.110.11 02:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Oppose. The physics term seems to be the primary topic, so this is fine as it is. The tag at the top of the page should be sufficient for anyone looking for the philosophical use. Dekimasuよ! 09:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Let me clarify, as there are two points to be addressed. Please discuss each on separate terms.

Firstly whether the title of the page should be Theory of Everything (physics), rather than just Theory of Everything, which too often gathers crackpots who literally talk about everything.

Secondly, whether there should be a dab page for Theories of Everything.

The Yeti 03:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a question: How much of these "crackpot" additions are actually properly sourced or encyclopedic? If the answer is "none", the problem is a non-issue. For well-known (notable, sourced) proposed theories of everything that are far removed from mainstream science, a short mention in a small section at the end should suffice (perhaps with a {{main|list of speculative and disputed theories}} or whatever it's called this month tag at the top). --Christopher Thomas 06:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Could someone add finnish link?

Hi, could someone add [[fi:Kaiken teoria]] to the list of other wikipedias articles? 213.186.240.74 05:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. JRSpriggs 05:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

1/0

I think that would defeat the purpose because the theory of everything is the theory of everything. In other words, the theory of everything is complete and nothing is undefined. According to the TOE Everything is one thing divided by nothing. That's a mathematical definition also. I agree that string theory should be removed. We need to replace it with the right definition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Betanon (talk • contribs) on 16:22, 25 February 2007.

TOE does have a very specific meaning. It talks about the unified field, and the unified field is, quite simply, undivided - the one thing completely divided by nothing. You will realize the TOE when you realize the one MATHEMATICAL NUMBER which completely describes the TOE is also the one which many were afraid of and labeled undefined. Allow me to clarify the truth: 1/0 IS the reciprocal of zero. 1/0 IS the opposite of nothing. 1/0 IS everything - the total amount of energy in existence EXCLAMATION POINT!!!!

This is the mathematical point where positive and negative infinity become the same thing! It didn't make sense to mathematicians of old because they thought it was "just a contradiction," but it should make sense to us now that it's made simple. Here's the key. 1/0 is more than just a contradiction, it is a CONSISTENT contradiction. So what is a consistent contradiction anyway??? Something that you can't escape!

It is the beautiful irony of the truth portrayed in the yin yang symbol. Yin yang symbol means the point where positive and negative infinity become the same thing. Yin yang symbol means the exact same thing as 1/0. You wanted a TOE? Well this is it! It is the marriage symbol, representing true love, which shows two circles overlapping eachother. One circle is negative infinity and the other is positive infinity (male and female). Like a venn diagram, the mandorla formed by the overlapping of the circles is where positive and negative infinity meet and become ONE.

Here is a list of the logos and ads which employ this symbol: Mastercard, Kool Cigarettes, DC shoes, Chanel jewelry, Yoga Booty Ballet, CBS, Double Tree hotels, Woody's food chain stores, and the list goes on and on

Why do so many people use the image of two interlocking circles? Because, it is the symbol of all symbolism.

When the universe begins expanding so fast that two points a planck distance apart begin receding away from eachother at greater than lightspeed then space/time will completely tear and everything will reverse. This is sometimes called the "big rip" but what they don't realize is it's really the "big reversal." It is the point where positive infinity meets with negative infinity.

I'm just trying to let you all know! It's been in front of us all along! It is all about the marriage symbol! It's the same thing as the mastercard logo!!! You would have never guessed it, but how easy can it be?? Just translate 1/0 from math to english and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Not undefined. Indivisble! It's something that you can't escape. Now go forth and spread the word! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.16.111.54 (talk • contribs) on 18:53, 23 March 2007.

Please can someone do something about the person posting this 1/0 nonsense. Its cluttering up valid points with rubbish (IMHO). The Yeti 00:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a single-purpose account that makes a flurry of edits once every couple of months. I suggest politely explaining WP:NOR to them, as a first-pass solution. --Christopher Thomas 01:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Is this prediction really nonsense? "When the universe begins expanding so fast that two points a planck distance apart begin receding away from eachother at greater than lightspeed then space/time will completely tear and everything will reverse." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.211.85.99 (talk • contribs) on 13:56, 25 March 2007.

Yes, that sentence appears to be nonsense. The universe doesn't "remember" how big a patch of space once was and do something special when it grows past a certain size. If, at a given time, a patch of the universe was the Planck size before the inflationary epoch, that just means that any density fluctuations dating from that time will have grown larger than the observable universe by the time the edges of the region are moving FTL relative to each other (as any density fluctuation from that time would have been at least the Planck length in size). Other patterns that form afterwards may still be observable, and any gravitationally-bound structures formed post-inflation might still be observable long after space expanded by the degree mentioned (though generally only if the observer is gravitationally bound with them). --Christopher Thomas 16:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be a garbled description of the Big Rip, though. What happens in that case is the _rate_ of expansion becomes arbitrarily high, causing the size of the observable universe to become arbitrarily small and forces on bound objects to become arbitrarily high. What is expected to happen in a universe expanding in that manner is for bound objects, including non-elementary particles, to be torn into their component elementary particles (which would involve quarks constantly being created, as tearing apart a particle made of quarks gives enough energy for new quark/antiquark pairs to form to seal the broken bonds). In practice, new physics is expected to take effect when the size of the observable universe shrinks to the Planck length (as general relativity is not expected to be an accurate model under those conditions), meaning a universe experiencing a Big Rip would not approach the final stage in exactly the manner described (its behavior would change in important but unknown ways before it reached the final stage). --Christopher Thomas 16:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Christopher, I have accurately predicted what will happen at the end of time or the big rip as you call it. It's not a big rip, it's a big reversal. Basically think about it like this. Let's pretend that the only reason that time moves forward is because the universe is expanding. Now the universe is expanding faster and faster and this is changing its properties more and more. If the universe expands so fast that it rips then everything will actually become torn apart and thrown into reverse instantaneously. Ultimately the sequence of numbers in the progression of change travels in a circular timeline, from 0 to 1/0 on the positive and then from 1/0 back down to 0 on the negative and so on and so forth. Right now we're on the positive side of time, right? And 1/0 is the point where positive infinite expansion instantly flips and becomes negative infinite expansion. So you see, it's going to be a big reversal, not a big rip. I figured it out G. It'll happen whenever two objects seperated by a planck distance or less begin expanding away from eachother at the speed of light or greater. Its the new math of 1/0 bro, and it's going to change the way we think about everything forever. The theory of everything broo. Go forth and spread the word. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.211.85.99 (talk • contribs) on 16:24, 26 March 2007.

grammar mistake

"The motivation behind this approach began with the Kaluza-Klein theory in which it was noted that adding one dimension to general relativity would produce the electromagnetic Maxwell's equations."

-equations are not electromagnetic. i do not know what is supposed to be meant by this sentence, as i have not studied it yet. maybe "the electromagnetism IN Mawell's equations" would make more sense? BriEnBest 06:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I tried to make that sentence clearer by changing it to "The motivation behind this approach began with the Kaluza-Klein theory in which it was noted that applying general relativity to a five dimensional universe (with the usual four dimensions plus one small curled-up dimension) yields the equivalent of the usual general relativity in four dimensions together with Maxwell's equations (electromagnetism, also in four dimensions).". I hope that is better. JRSpriggs 10:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Jaki

With the occasional exception of trying to caveat to editors, HTML comments in article space aren't a good idea.

I move the two sections here, if anyone wants to discuss their inclusion:

1Z deleted OR/POV "Finally, some theorists believe that a comprehensive TOE will, out of necessity, include information on how the nonexistent primary creative force and the existent ongoing creative process relates to the universe and its contents".

In light of Gödel's incompleteness theorem

Stanley Jaki was among the first to recognize the significance of Gödel's Incompleteness theorem for 'theories of everything' in theoretical physics. Gödel's theorem states that any non-trivial mathematical theory will be either incomplete or inconsistent. Jaki says that since any 'theory of everything' will certainly be a non-trivial mathematical theory, it must be either incomplete or inconsistent, thus dooming searches for a deterministic theory of everything in which all the parameters are defined internally and consistently. (Jaki 2005)

IMHO before putting his ideas into this article, most likely violating undue weight, the Stanley Jaki article would deserve some expansion, most importantly to give his opinions more explicitely and to tell us about his reception.

Pjacobi 21:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Theory_of_everything#Jaki_stuff_is_seriously_problematic for further discussion on this matter 80.41.191.152 17:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Marx

While it is probably futile to discuss this with John Smith, who just follows me around to revert and edit war with me from disputes we often have on politics related articles, the other editor is a different case.

Giovanni, you need to stop making allegations about everyone you disagree with. You've edited other articles I have. If you want to argue I maliciously follow you around then you are condemning yourself for your past behaviour. John Smith's 00:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Not everyone, just you. Do you deny your wikistalking me, or is it just coincidence that you happen to find yourself here to revert me on this article in all of wikipedia? And the same with other articles I happen to come across, which then follow the same pattern? Strange how you are the only one that does this to me. So I guess that does make it "everyone who does this to me," but that is still one person--you.Giovanni33 09:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, it's rather petty of you to accuse me of wikistalking when this is the only page I do not normally visit that I have edited against you.

As I pointed out, if you believe I am wikistalking then your past edits mean you did the same thing to me. John Smith's 13:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

About Marx, yes he did write mostly on Society, Economics, and Politics, History, as you point out but he also had a philosphical system which could be and was applied to Nature. For instance, Engles book Dialectics of Nature. If you look at that section in the articke, it deals with "all encompassing systems," and gave examples of other philosophers who create such a system. It need not have been about the Universe per se (although there are Marxist perspectives on theories of the origins of the universe, big bang, etc--applying its methodology and assumtions).

Marx, in addition to the above, also was a philosopher, whose philosophical system qualifies--in particular his dialectical materialism. Infact, dialectical method akin to Hegals is exactly such an all-encompassing philosophical method on all of reality. This is why it's apropos to include Hegel, whose dialectically dynamic model of nature and of history is such an outlook/system regarding it as a fundamental aspect of the nature of reality --Marx simply rooted this is materiaism (turned it upside down, or right side up). Its a question of (epistemology), an assertion of the interconnected, contradictory, and dynamic nature of the world outside our perception of it (ontology), and more improtantly a methodology. So while you are correct, it is also correct to include Marx's for his system as well for this point. If we disgaree I'm sure we can discuss this on the talk page instead of reverting each other after 24 hours as John Smith is content to suggest.Giovanni33 21:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the links you've supplied, and it seems that Marx was concerned almost exclusively with sociology in applying his philosophies (in particular, applying them to explain how societies developed throughout history). The section you added it to is listing philosophers who attempted to explain the physical world. Engels apparently did try to apply Marx's ideas to the physical world, instead of just the people in it, but the Wikipedia article about the book is a stub, and the article about Engels highlights his political career and thoughts about the philosophy underlying social development, so it doesn't seem to have been his primary interest.

My own feeling is that the section should be limited to discussing philosophers who put major effort into developing an explanation for the physical world, and even then should be limited to the most notable of these (I might have just left it at Aristotle and Plato if I were writing it, but I'm not a philosophy major). A more complete treatment would be at Theory of everything (philosophy).

I'm certainly open to discussion about it; my opinion is just one of many (though I do think I have a good handle on the intent and contents of the article as a whole). If we're looking for more opinions, I'd be happy to set up a straw poll, though this is strictly for gathering more thoughts on the matter (straw polls aren't intended to be a binding vote, and rarely end up producing a consensus on their own). What are the two of your thoughts regarding doing this? --Christopher Thomas 02:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The discussion barely began and we're already at the polling stage? Not good. ;) I think it merits inclusion. As well, although Marx did not write about the topic himself, he did help edit Anti-Dühring where some of these notions were expressed (at no point voicing objections), so we can presume he implicitly agreed with the concepts which were later further articulated in the Dialectics of Nature. El_C 02:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The main purpose of a straw poll would be to get more eyes and more opinions on the matter. As this discussion had appeared to me to be stagnating, this seemed like a good idea to me (and still does).

As for Marx, I'm deeply suspicious of arguments that rely on demonstrating indirectly that he supported applying his philosophies to the physical world at large. If Engels wrote the book, why not cite him instead?

Lastly, as previously stated, this is meant to be a representative list of a handful of the most important thinkers on the matter, not an exhaustive list. In my opinion, this discussion would be better focused by asking "Is Engels (or Hegel or anyone else) one of the 5 most notable people who thought about philosophies of the physical world?", rather than "Did Engels (or Marx or whoever else) think about it at all?". Save any exhaustive list for Theory of everything (philosophy) or other appropriate articles. --Christopher Thomas 02:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

We are just getting started with our own discussion so its premature to seek out others at this stage, I think. We don't really have an impase yet. As to what you wrote, first I thank you for expressing yourself, but I think you miss the point and are confused about the matter (the nature and context of this section in question--(or perhaps I am). This is not about listing the most important thinkers on the matter of the "theory of everything." This is not even about listing thinkers who talked mainly about the physical world per se. Go back and look at the section and what it tries to do. Its about a few of the most outstanding examples of thinkers who devised a types of all encompassing system/world view which can then be applied to help explain everything else---no matter what field or discipline you apply its methodology to.

This was the point of listing Marx as an outstanding example of just such a system. Any subject that you can think of there is a Marxian take on it. Be it art/ aesthetics, literature, mathematics, biology, geography, science in general, and of course we are most familiar with all the social areas where Marx has the greatest influence in such as criminology, sociology, political economy, theory of history, journalism, etc. That it’s an all-encompassing system is the point that is being made. Does not make it necessarily related to the TOE, or even the "physical world." For if that were the criteria, how would you justify including Plato? He fits only because he is a good example along the same lines as I explain: because of his all encompassing (albeit religiously based} objective idealism expressed in his metaphysics, i.e. Platonic realism, his Universal and Theory of forms. The system is universal enough so that we can derive a Platonic view and interpretation for almost anything, just as we can with Marx. When I say Marx, I mean the system that is attributed to him, Marxism (even though it was a collaborate effort with Engel’s and then later thinkers applying “Marxian” modes of analysis.

I only raised Engle’s work on Nature and Science because it makes the point clear that Marxist philosophy indeed strives for exactly a kind of “unified field theory of the sciences” which includes both “natural” and “humanistic." Dialectical materialism, as elaborated by Marx and Engel’s was concerned with much more than political economy; it asserts itself as an encompassing worldview explicitly. When he wrote about Nature, Engels was trying to show the universality in application for materialism and dialectics. He even writes in Anti-During: "My recapitulation of mathematics and the natural sciences was undertaken in order to convince myself also in detail…that in nature amid the welter of innumerable changes, the same dialectical laws of motion force their way through as those which in history govern the apparent fortuitousness of events…" With Marx's works in mathematics, he like wise regarded knowledge its knowelege (of mathematics) as essential to ‘a conception of nature which is dialectical and at the same time materialist’. (Anti-Dühring, p. 15} [3] Marx studied mathematics as Engels wrote, as an attempt “to produce an encyclopedic survey of our conception of the philosophical, natural-science and historical problems.” Some more works of note that touched on science, whichi make this clear:

The Holy Family, Marx, 1845

Part Played by Labour in the Transition From Ape to Man,Engels 1876

Anti-Dühring, Engels 1877

On Dialectics 1878

Time and Space

Cosmogony, Physics, Chemistry

The Organic World

The Organic World. Conclusion

Mathematical Manuscripts, Marx 1881

The Dialectics of Nature, Engels 1883Giovanni33 09:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

DiaMat isn't a theory of everything, but a method of everything. Yes, it was also an attempt of an “unified field theory of the sciences” -- but that doesn't imply a unified theory of all phenomena. Marx, Engels and Lenin (Materialism and Empirio-criticism) may have thought to be in posession of the correct and most efficent method to gather knowledge about the material world, but they surely didn't believe they were already in posession of all knowledge about the material world. --Pjacobi 10:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Call it a theory, a method, philosophy of science or what not: dialectical materialism unifies materialism and dialectics. Engels wrote that:

dialectics, prevails throughout nature, and so-called subjective dialectics, dialectical thought, is only the reflection of the motion through opposites which asserts itself everywhere in nature, and which by the continual conflict of the opposites and their final passage into one another, or into higher forms, determines the life of nature.

Anyway, Alan Woods and Ted Grant's Reason in Revolt: Marxism and Modern Science seems like an encompassing enough attempt. El_C 10:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Pjacobi, exactly correct. However, the point of the section is dealing with just such a philosophy; some thinkers have attempted to construct all encompassing systems. Marxism is definitely in that category. It is not a theory of everything but its a theory that can be applied to everything in terms of anaysis and further understanding, hence it being all encompassing in nature. That was all that this addition of Marx was meant to illustrate. Its a good example in this respect, and should be included for the same reason that Plato and Hegal are included. For balance, there should be a materialist outlook given as an example, I think. Giovanni33 19:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

From my reading above, Pjacobi does not disagree in principal. Correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, I see this as 3 editors who see this addition as valid. John Smith hassn't made any argument, so its really just one editor who is correctly waiting for proper consensus. I've waited and don't see any further disputes to the points above, so I am going to restore the bit. If someone disagrees, I'd hope they can further discuss the matter here.Giovanni33 17:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, don't make arbitrary decisions as to what people do and do not mean. There are other people (apart from myself) who disagree with your desired inclusion. Why not get them to agree first? I will not revert if both Pjacobi and Christopher Thomas agree with you. John Smith's 17:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What I find especially confusing is the fixation on Marx, when it was Engels who actually published the main work about applying the philosophy to the physical world. Why exactly is it Marx and not Engels who should be cited? An argument for Engels might actually have convinced me.--Christopher Thomas 18:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Your still missing the point. The point is not who applied the method to an analysis of he natural world, the point is the philosophy itself it given to the nature of being able to be applied in such a universal fashion. Its the method itself that is of import, and Marx is given credit for the philosophy, although it is acknowelged that it was a colaboration with Engles. If you want to put Marx and Englels, I have no objection. But if if you are looking for actual application of the method to nature as the test, then you miss the point of this section.Giovanni33 19:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, application of philosophical methods to nature is exactly the point of this section. The more general case belongs at Theory of everything (philosophy). --Christopher Thomas 20:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Then explain how Hegal and Plato fit in to such a case? If that is really the point of the section then the section needs to be re-written because that is not what it says. Currently it mentions a philosophical theory of everything, and states, "Some philosophers — Aristotle, Plato, Hegel, Whitehead — have attempted to construct all-encompassing systems." All-encompassing systems is what it refers to in the realm of philosophy. It says nothing about writers who acutally applied any given system to nature. That it CAN be and HAS been would logically follow, but that is NOT the pont. Rather, it is its ability to, that is the point. A writer who applies such a system/method to nature to explain and illustrate the "rules" of nature, only illustrates the larger point of the nature of the system being all-encompassing. These are two distinct points. Perhaps this is too subtle?Giovanni33 20:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

By all means, propose such a rewritten version. This article, per the move discussion above, and per its introduction, is about the physics concept "theory of everything" (a complete description of the rules governing the natural world). The subsections on "philosophy" and "religion" should be considered in that context. --Christopher Thomas 20:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

And it is in that context, i.e. the philosophical equivalent: an all-encompassing system that has universal applicability to the "rules" of all phenomenon in nature and otherwise. As a philosophical system it has a wider scope that dealing directly with physics or nature only. Everything is everything. Philosophical systems that fall into that category are the point being made, correctly--not to writers who have then applied the system to nature in particular. It is already given that such a system can be applied to nature. That Engles did so illustrates the point of Marx's method, namely that it is all-encompassing. If you insist that this only mention thinkers who directly wrote primarily about nature and the physical world, then answer my question (which you have previously ignored): Why do you not object to Plato or Hegal on these grounds? Explain that.Giovanni33 20:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

As the author of the passage in question, my only intention was to illustrate the relationship between physical and philosophical TOE's. The page is not really about philosophy, and the names mentioned are only illustrative, not exhaustive.1Z 20:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. That is my understanding as well. Marx is likewise illustrative, from a more materialist philosophical system, as opposed to Hegal and Plato.Giovanni33 21:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Marx hardly invented materialism. 1Z 21:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. Who ever said he did? I only mentioned materialism because Marx represents one branch in the school of materialism. The other philosophical systems given with Plato and Hegal are both representatives of different schools of idealism. The addition of Marx then adds a materialist philosophy of everything for appropriate balance to the other two.Giovanni33 21:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not feel comfortable with the article mentioning the evil "economist" Karl Marx as if he was the author of a physical theory (or philosophical theory which includes a physical theory). I suggest that the section be rewritten to refer to specific books (rather than persons) which present philosophical theories which imply physical theories of everything, or dropped altogether. JRSpriggs 10:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I object to the rationale of simply not liking Karl Marx as a basis to find some way of excluding him as a proper representative of a philosopher whose philosophical system (dialectical materialism) fits the description of the passage. This amounts to POV pushing by ommission.Giovanni33 18:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not merely "simply not like" Marx. His misleading theories have been used to justify the murder of hundreds of millions of people. He is objectively evil. And his "philosophy" pretends to deal with everything while in fact being merely a rationalization for hating people for belonging to different social classes. JRSpriggs 06:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You have a profound misunderstanding of Marx and his ideas, but we are not here to debate this topic. Suffice it to say we disagree about this POV, politically, but again, this is not relevant. That you use your political views as the basis for making edits here is what is not allowed per policy, and what I object to.Giovanni33 19:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The evilness or non-evilness of a philosopher is frankly not relevant to whether or not they are included in this article. A litmus test I'd accept is how much they (Marx or anyone else) wrote or were recorded as speaking about construction of a philosophical system with an explicitly stated goal or consequence of explaining the natural world.--Christopher Thomas 06:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Then why is it you don't apply this same ostensive standard to the other philosphers listed, i.e. Hegal and Plato? I've asked you this question at least three times and you have just ignored it. I think it speaks to a double standard and thus points to the real objection not being the real objection you have with Marx, whose philosophical system is just as encompassing, and even more related to, applied to, and has as a consequence, applicablity to the natural world as demonstrated by the references offered above.Giovanni33 20:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You asked this question exactly once before, and I'll give you the same answer now that I did then: Propose an alternate list matching these criteria, and I'll gladly look at it. Checking Hegel's article, it looks like he was mainly concerned with things other than the physical world, so I can see a good argument for his removal from the list. Plato, however, did deal in a significant way with the question of the nature of the material world (see Platonic realism), so I'd argue that it should be kept. --Christopher Thomas 20:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that instead of admitting that Marx fits according to the criteria clearly stated in the section and whose purpose has already been explained, you want to change it so as to exclude Marx. But then the problem is that all those other philosophical systems listed don't match, of course (yet you dont have a problem with them until I point out the glaring double-standard). The fact is that the criteria as listed for the purpose of the section is to illustrate the relationship between physical and philosophical TOE's, that is the Theory of everything with philosphers who have constructed a philosophical method that is all-encompassing. These listed philosphers and their respective system match up according to such a purpose. I can't stress this point enough.

You say it looks like Hegal was mainly concerned with other things, but Plato dealth with the natural world, etc. Actually, no, not really. Plato did not talk any more about a description of the natural world as we use and understand the term, but talked about those "other things" you find with Hegel.

It may be that you are not familiar with Plato's philosophical system. His universals and forms pertain to abstract conceptions devoid of matter (non-extended). Plato proposed a metaphysical, and rather mystical religious system; he was very much opposed to the methods of experimental science, and held contempt for making observations. For Plato, the "World Soul" is was an a-priori metaphysical principle, and the natural world was merely a reflection of some higher form of reality, located in the "soul." His abstract and eternal forms (existing outside of time and space) are metaphysically foundational--the unseen world of true realities, given to knowledge by use of the intellect. To Plato, unlike Aristotle, one does not perceive the world with use of the senses. Thus, is his theory of forms, universals, particulars, etc, that you reference in Plantoic realism. If you maintain that this Plantic system of Objective Idealism is a philosophy concerned with the natural world, then by the same token you must accept Hegel’s system, which as similarly all-encompassing with his notion of the "World Sprit." However, I don't think you mean this. Marxism, actually, is much more concerned with a description of the natural world, embracing the basis of which the natural sciences rest on--observation and the scientific method--but its dialectics is a method that is all encompassing for both human society and the natural world alike, hence fundamental, universal, and all-encompassing. The works cited above explicitly and impliedly state such. But, even if you don't accept these assertions, you have to accept that the philosophical system of Marxism is just as much dealing about Nature (reality), as Plato's system is or be guilty of applying a double standard. Giovanni33 20:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

What a lot of verbiage about a single sentence in the article, and one that can be so easily dispensed with! Do we have any sources talking about Plato or Hegel constructing a "theory of everything"? Probably not. In which case just get rid of all references to philosophers from before the term "theory of everything" was coined. They're not encyclopedically relevant, and talking about them here is original research. --Trovatore 19:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That is actually a good point. Unless we have a source making the point that this section is making, i.e. a philosophical all encompassing system that is compared to the concept of the physics theory of the Theory of everything, then it would be OR. But, note that the section does not say that Hegal, Plato, et al. actually contructed a "theory of everything," just that they have one that is philosophically all encompassing. Lets look for some sources and report on what we find. If we can't find any, its best to dispense with the section as OR.Giovanni33 23:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Film

Should the movie The Theory of Everything (2006) be mentioned? --Yancyfry 04:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Deleted section on religion

I didn't feel the following was supported by the references supplied in the article, so I moved it to the talk page. Silly rabbit 18:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

== Theory of Everything and religion == Many theists believe the universe should operate according to consistent principles because they believe it to have been designed by a rational and orderly deity:

God saw everything he had made, and indeed, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)

Some theists believe no TOE will be found, while some others speculate that a TOE would provide a new concept of this deity as a universal teleological principle — a natural phenomenon, rather than supernatural. Yet other theists believe that the discovery of a TOE would not change anything in regards to their belief. Others expect that a TOE, like modern physics, would be agnostic as it would by definition describe only the universe — this is assuming, however, that deities would be separate from the universe.

Added

I've taken the liberty to add "Physicists believe this unification is possible due to the fact that the current theoretic ideas seem to converge towards a single theory. For example, from general relativity it is known that gravity travels at the speed of light and not instantaneous as predicted by Newton. This seem to show some kind of underlying symmetry, as it is peculiar that both gravity and electromagnetism propagates a the speed of light." as i thought that it needed to stated why physicists even believe that this unification is possible. Sorry for the bad english and please correct mistakes and grammar errors. --Bilgrau 12:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)