Talk:Turkish War of Independence

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Note: This article has been the subject of controversy in the past. Please check the discussions in the archives on the right before making any substantial changes.

Comments

The tenure of the article seems in places propagandistic & to exhibit an anti-British bias; (minor point-it is also difficult to scan as the grammar is poor) ...........

Ahem. Not exactly a productive comment, is it? And unsigned too... I think at least the main introduction is good and npovvy enough. 195.24.29.51 08:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Correcting the English grammar

Because of my interest in Turkish history I was drawn to the subject matter of this article. However, because it's written by a non-native writer of english and because I'm American and not Turkish or Greek my knowledge of english is my strongest tool with regards to this article. I have tried to maintain the substance of the facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chrismv (talk • contribs) 23:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

I just stopped by to give this a quick once over for possible editing. Way too much time would be involved for me to do it - I have a job and a life away from the computer. God, where would one even start!? It's a pure mess from a grammatical standpoint and I wish the best of luck to any native / fluent English speaker who dares to conquer it and avoid being lamblasted in pigeonenglish on the talk page for even trying! CanadianMist 16:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

better main pic/map

Could we please get a better main picture than the current one. It looks like an animated gif with two slides. It is too small to convey any real information. It mostly gives off the impression that "everybody" tried to conquer Turkey, which is hardly NPOV. besides, it seems to lack a few things, for instance, I can't see any black arrows on the map so why have that in the legend?

At least create two maps so we can get rid of the "blip blop" effect of a continuous animation. Thank you. 195.24.29.51 08:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Precursors editing

This section is too pretty NPOV in my view. What it needs is editing. As it is now, groups and entities are referenced with no real organization or introduction, there are examples of repeated links, and generally a lack of structure. 195.24.29.51 08:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Italy and Georgia as Combatants

Hi, could someone please provide evidence of Italy and Georgia as combatants against Turkey during this war? The info box lists Georgia as a combatant, but the article says nothing about Georgia. Also, I was under the impression that Italy gave Turkey massive aid during the conflict.

Thanks, and I look forward to hearing about this information! AlexiusComnenus 17:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked through the articles on Georgian history, and apparently they fought a war with Armenia during this time period. I would find it surprising if they also fought Turkey, does anyone have a source for this claim? AlexiusComnenus 17:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Good question. Italy signed the treaty of Lausanne on the other side of the table. I think that qualifies Italy as an opposing force. At the end, they accepted a seat on the other side of the table. There were significant Italian forces in the Mediterranean section and under occupation of Istanbul. The only reason there was not an armed conflict between these sources were because the Greeks had already began to occupy the Italian interests and Turks were developing their resistance to Greek forces. What is the meaning of helping Greeks by diverting the Turkish sources? In doing so, Italians were not going to get what they wanted at the end. If you brought your armed forces to a region, that qualifies you opposing force, or occupation force, etc. There were many proxy wars at the time. Some did not used guns but other means. Thanks --OttomanReference 17:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, you have a point but the problem is that Italy also supported the Kemalists quite heavily, providing training and munitions according Michael Smith's work. Italy also shelled Corfu during this time period, so it is hard to justify claiming that Italy and Greece were on the same side in this struggle.

I think we should discuss what should be done about Italy further, and I'll remove Georgia from the list of participants if no one has any objection. Also, I will add the Soviet Union as it was a crucial Turkish ally. AlexiusComnenus 18:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Georgia occupied some Turkish land during the period. This reference states that "on 20 April 1919, The Georgian units entered Ardahan" http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D3130239EEA0FCDF038B41132B5144CC3043 Therefore, we have to add Georgia as a combatant country. Kaygtr 18:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that Ardahan was no held by the Armenians at the time? Georgia and Armenia were also at war during this time period-- if Georgia and Armenia were fighting we might actually want to add Georgia on the other side! I'm really not sure, I'll try to find out who occupied what at the time. The Turkish-Armenian war is pretty well documented, so it should be pretty easy to find out who was where during April 20, 1919. I'll try to find out about this, because it seems strange to me that Georgia would be fighting both Turkey and Armenia (but the Caucasus was really messed up during this time period, so I suppose it is plausible!) I'll come back to this in a bit. AlexiusComnenus 23:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, this looks pretty complicated-- the Caucasus is not a simple region to deal with!

Check out these maps-- http:/upwiki/wikipedia/en/4/41/DRGMap.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TranscaucasusCampaign1921.jpg

Keeping in mind that this region was part of the Russian Empire beforehand, it appears that the Georgians were fighting ARMENIANS in Ardahan, at the Turkish-Armenian war of 1920 began in Oltu, to the west of Ardahan. Read the article on the Turkish-Armenian war, it has some useful information.

I'll try to summarize the reasons for putting Italy and Georgia on either side:

Italy

• 1) Italian troops were stationed in Ankara. The argument has been raised that this may have tied down Turkish troops.
• 2) On the flipside the Italians trained and armed Turkish troops, and had good relations with the Kemalist army.
• 3) To the best of my knowledge there was no combat between Italian and Turkish forces.
• 4) Greece and Italy were certainly not allies but rather rivals, and Italy took military action against Greece during this time period, shelling Corfu. Hence it does not make sense to put they on the same "side" in the war.

Georgia

• 1) Turkey invaded Georgia in 1921 along with the Soviet Union.
• 2) By the flipside, Georgia and Armenia were fighting during this time period. A similar argument can be used to (1) above, that the war with Georgia tied down Armenian troops.
• 3) Since Georgia and Armenia were at war, it does not really make sense to put them on the same side.

I personally think that Italy should if anything be put as a combatant on the Turkish side in this war, due to the aid that Turkey gave to Italy. To my knowledge, Turkish and Italian forces never exchanged fire, whereas Greeks and Italians did exchange fire. Georgia is a bit more complicated, as Turkey invaded Georgia, but Georgia also fought Armenia. Solutions could be to put Georgia on both sides with different dates, or to delete Georgia entirely since Turkey invading Georgia wasn't really part of the "War of Independence" as Georgia never really threatened Turkish territorial integrity.

Thoughts?

Cheers, AlexiusComnenus 00:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Seeying the way to article had originally been written, an Us vs Them point of view is clearly apparent. Making the On who's side question quite shady. Such as who profited on who. Trying to understand why they where put together in the infobar I think this is the concept used: Italy got Turkish (Ottoman) land automatic ennemy, Greece invaded Turkey makes them the ennemy, Turkey fough Georgia, ennemy; lets put all the ennemies in the same pile. Considering the different conflicts in action during the War of Independance, could multiple Combatant sections be made with dates indicated? If not perhaps trimming the factions down to those more directly involved only?--Dryzen 14:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If the reason we have Italy there is that they were promised land in Anatolia, then they should not be listed as combatants. If they did actually fight Turkish revolutionary troops, then we can list them as combatant and we should also write the name of the Italian commander in that case. Deniz^T_C 19:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

They did not fight Turkish revolutionary troops, in fact they trained and supplied them (see article on Greco-Turk war) and they also shelled Corfu during this time period. If they are on any side, it should be the Turkish revolutionary side!

Also, why did you delete the Soviet Union as a combatant? The Soviet Union quite clearly fought against both Armenia and Georgia, and you removed sourced content. Could you please explain doing this? AlexiusComnenus 22:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of having multiple combatants, but is there a wikipedia precedent for this? I think we may just need to cut things down, but even this is confusing. For example, it would be quite silly to classify Britian and Greece as "allies" in this conflict despite the fact that Greek and British troops bough fought Turkey during this time period. In fact, in 1921 Britain captured Greek troops who were retreating into the neutral zone and turned them over to Kemalist forces! Britain and the other great powers were officially neutral in this conflict, and Britain never declared war on Turkey, so they are only combatants in the loosest sense.

We should have some real, solid criteria for defining who is a combatant and who is one what side. One cannot claim that Britain is a combatant and the Soviet Union is not, it is simply a ridiculous and untenable position. AlexiusComnenus 22:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The Soviet Union may have engaged Armenia, but it was not for the purpose of Turkey's independence. Also, when you source something, then that source must explicitly support what you are saying without you drawing your own conclusions. The Soviets provided Turkey with diplomatic and military support (in the form of armaments), that you believe this makes them a combatant is entirely your own conclusion however. So shouting "deletion of sourced content" is not much use when the source does not support your claim. Furthermore, you should be the last person making such claims. --A.Garnet 10:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

A.Garnet, this is total nonsense and your arguments are spurious. In WWII the Soviets were not fighting the the independence of France, but the Soviets and the French were still allies, just as the USSR and Turkey were in 1920. The Soviets and Turks launched a coordinated campaign in the Caucasus after signing a military accord, (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-7438%28197304%294%3A2%3C129%3AAATCIT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage) and the Soviets provided Turkey with massive military aid, and the USSR was the first state to recognize the Kemalist regime-- I think that all this shows pretty clearly that they were allies. Any attempt to portray things otherwise is blatant POV-pushing, but it doesn't surprise me that people are blatantly pushing POVs in this article. I just don't see how you can claim that the Soviet Union was not a combatant, especially when you are calling Italy, which shelled Greece at the time, a combatant. AlexiusComnenus 23:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Alexius first really thanks having that one tiny sentence after the long sentences of Turkish wrath, /sarcasm, still we cannot have Horton as a reference. Now, 1) nobody disputes here that Russians supported the revolutionary forces with weapons, just like US, Britain and other countries have done to Turkey and other countries (Iran, Iraq, Cyprus, etc.) during the 20th century and afterwards 2) Italy might have fought Greece, Britain, or whatever, that does not mean much except that Turkey and Greece had a common enemy. 3) Armenia and/or Georgia (weren't they part of Soviet Union officialy?) might have fought against both Turkey and Russia, possibly for different reasons (eg, territory and independence). These don't make Russia combatant on the side of Turkish revolutionary forces. The Russian support might or might not be related to Turkish fight against Armenia, it might very well be related to communist ideals of Russians (which is more likely in my opinion), communist expansionist ideals (making Turkey a communist state, etc, which could very well happen), or it might be related to having a buffer country against British advances, or it might be economic issues. Anyway, what we think is not important, we are not to decide which one it is (it might be a combination as well), it is OR.

Two countries with the same 'enemy' are not necessarily allies and vice versa (like your World War example), more relevantly to this discussion, they are not necessarily combatants in one's war against that common enemy. Also World War is a very different thing than some independence war. Deniz^T_C 00:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

One more thing, as far as I remember, British did actually fight with the irregular Turkish resistance units, then came the Greeks that fought against the regular forces. Britain and Soviet Union cases are not similar. Deniz^T_C 00:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Two countries with the same 'enemy' are not necessarily allies and vice versa

I totally agree with you! I am glad we agree on this point, as I have been arguing it form the beginning. I see this as the main problem here, the way the combatant tag is currently set up, it puts all these "Allies" together on the same side. Can one really claim that Greece and Italy were "allied" in this conflict? Maybe we need to have more than just two "sides" in the infobox.

As for your points

1) Yes, they did support Turkey with arms, and Soviet troops invaded Georgia and Armenia during this time period at the same time as the Turks invaded. These invasions were coordinated by the 1920 Russo-Turkish according, signed by Kemalist represantative in Moscow. This is all described in the Hovannisian article which I linked to you above. 2)I agree with you on this point. But by the same token, Greece and Armenia both fought Turkey, and this means little more than the fact that they had a common enemy. Why should they be on the same "side", whereas Turkey and Italy are not? We need some real criteria, not Turkey vs. the world. 3) Armenia and Georiga were independent republics, they were conquered by the Soviet Union during this time period, in conjunction with the Turks. Turkey and USSR split up the former Russian Armenia-- please read the Hovannisian article it explains everything.

I'm glad we found some common ground and I hope we can clear some things up now. AlexiusComnenus 01:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an independence war. From its nature, we have one 'country' (maybe more) fighting against the 'occupying force(s)', the forces that control the territory that the country fighting the independence war would like to claim. These occupying forces (if there is more than one) don't need to be allies bound by some treaties, they are just 'enemies' of that country. Here, 'that country' is Turkey, as you did guess, and the 'territory' is today's Turkish territory (except Hatay), Batumi, and Mousul.

We might also have some 'intervening forces' (which might be Russia in this case) that lie on the side of 'that country'.

I read first few pages of Hovannisian (is he reliable?) I did not see such a thing, it might have missed my eyes, as I am quite sleepy at the moment. Which page was it (1-19)? Let me sleep now, I will come back if I don't forget, sorry if I do forget. Also not everyone has access to JSTOR articles, but I do, so no problem with me there. A. Garnet and others might not have access. Deniz^T_C 01:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Interallied comission and a neutral observer M. Gehri states that "Greek army of occupation have been employed in the extermination of musslim population" and taner akçam says that in the years 1919-1922 both turkish and greek national movemants massacred or expelled other groups under their control..--laertes d 16:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Where is the word systematic used? I will revert as I have searched the page in question in the Akcam book and could not find it. If I am wrong please correct me. 70.225.166.166 22:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, this was me. Sorry, my computer has been signing me out for some reason. AlexiusComnenus 22:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment

As the grandson of the survivors of the genocide of Pontiac Greeks and as a French national and an Historian, I see this article as a grave insult to the intelligent mind. First opposing the "nationals" with the Armenians and Greeks is a completely blinded view of history, denying that Turkish populations arrived at least 1800 years after the two aforesaid populations. Then calling "war of independence" a bloodbath which main purpose was merely an ethnic epuration and the spoliation of the long settled and peaceful Christians which main desire was the long sought "droit des peuples à décider d'eux-mêmes". Then the glorious successors of the young Turks lead by Mustafa Kemal replaced them by fresh populations from Caucasus and Central Asia, erasing the memory of this land but also creating the actual Kurds issues. From 1915 to 1924 Anatolia experienced the very first genocides of modern times and the Turks' methods were used by Hitler and its fellows of the Nazi regime as an example of a successful rapid, efficient and forgotten genocide. I will say no more as the ethical issues and the historical inaccuracies are legions in this paper. Marc Megrelis, Cambridge. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.111.194.28 (talk) 15:00, July 9 2007 (UTC)

The Title - Independence(?)

Perhaps the title should be "the war of liberty" instead of the war of independence for more precise translation. İstiklal or kurtuluş do not mean independence. Besides, neither the Ottoman State nor the Turkish movement was ever "dependent" (like a colony that is). Independence is the right word for all previous colonies but not for the states which were born from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire... Ozkaplan 05:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)