Talk:Immanuel Velikovsky

"Shapley … familiar with Velikovsky's pseudoscientific claims"

By my count, 'pseudoscientific' has now been removed and reinserted four times, with a debate about its use being conducted via the Edit Summaries. This is contrary to WP guidelines: "Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content or to express opinions of the other users involved. Instead, place such comments, if required on the talk page. This keeps discussions and debates away from the article page itself."

I've now removed 'pseudoscientific' (rationale follows) and offer this Talk topic as a forum for discussion about its appropriateness.

My rationale for removal: there is no evidence that Shapley referred to V's claims as 'pseudoscientific'. Unless it can be shown that he did, the qualification of the claims as such must be regarded as editorial POV, and consequently inappropriate for insertion.

-- Jmc 00:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree for similar following reasons

• No citations indicating that Shapley referred to Velikovsky's claims as pseudoscientific
• No citations indicating that anyone had referred to Velikovsky's claims as pseudoscientific at that time.
• "Pseudoscientific claims" fails Wikipedia's use of Weasel words
• The word "pseudoscientific" is ill-defined.

There is no problem including the labelling of Velikovsky's work as pseudoscientific, as long as it is attributed and there is citation (and preferable a reason). --Iantresman 08:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Runaway Greenhouse Effect

The temperature of Venus was found by space probes to be very much higher than expected by the steady state theory of the day. However it was much as predicted by V.

In defence of mainstream science against V's hypotheses, Carl Sagan devised the 'enhanced greenhouse effect', which was subsequently termed the 'runaway greenhouse effect', and was adopted apparently without proof.

It has been claimed that the measured temperature distribution and its variation with time is as expected by V's catastrophy hypothsis, and is incompatible with the RGE hypothesis (or can only be reconciled with difficulty). Velikovsky Reconsidered refers.

From an even handed viewpoint, how do the thermodynamics of Venus RGE (Saganist or otherwise) compare with Venus Catastrophy (Velikovskian or otherwise)? GilesW 11:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The thermodynamics of Venus' atmosphere are well-understood and there is no evidence for catastrophism. --ScienceApologist 14:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there evidence of catastrophism in any planet's atmosphere? --Iantresman 21:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No. The atmosphere of Jupiter, for example, doesn't even shown any evidence though it was recently visited by the catastrophe of Shoemaker-Levy 9. --ScienceApologist 21:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

From which we conclude that:

• There has been no catastrophism on any planet with any atmosphere?
• Atmospheres don't show evidence of catastrophism?
• No model includes catastrophism as a factor?
• Peer review answers none of these questions, so we don't know? --Iantresman 22:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Peer review accounts answer the first three questions: No, no, and no. --ScienceApologist 12:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ho hum, Apologist. If that is the case how do you account for: "The greenhouse effect by itself could not account for the conditions that we find on Venus." [[1]]. Also the RGE article in Wikipedia is heavily qualified with the word "perhaps". Other web pages assume that RGE is proven, without providing waterproof references. Can you point to sound evidence for your assertion? So far as I can see, Saganists rely on far-fetched or self-contradictory assumptions, like all the water vapour that must have been there recently but has now completely disappeared, evidently without noticing that this flight of fantasy contradicts steady state theory. GilesW 22:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't use webpages by themselves. They are not reliable sources. Try reading books on planetary atmospheres or reading the section of the Venus II book on atmospheres. --ScienceApologist 12:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Apologist says: "there is no evidence for catastrophism". It is well known that these are classic weasel words, and that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". In fact there is plenty of evidence for catastrophism, it's just that it has not been accepted as formal proof, especially by those who are careful to put their wooden telescope to their proverbial blind eye. Viewed objectively from an NPOV viewpoint (??!?), Occam's razor appears to support catastrophism at the expense of steady-state theory in the case of Venus, as in modern astronomy, geology, palientology etc. GilesW 23:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you point to a single mainstream source that supports this assertion? --ScienceApologist 12:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The important thing here is that catastrophism has no support in the mainstream scholarly community, and that no mainstream scholars, whatever they may think of the runaway greenhouse effect (and I don't know anything about whether or not its controversial), advance catastrophism as an alternative explanation for the climate of Venus. john k 03:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course what you say is by definition true. As explained in "The Velikovsky Affair" and other sources, the peer review system actively prevents the publication and promotion of non-mainstream views: it is on the record that people doing so have been ejected from the mainstream community, and had their careers destroyed. That does not preclude the non-mainstream explanation being correct occasionally, as I think it is in this case. Application of Sherlock Holmes' precept that "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth", and of Occam's razor, makes it hard for an NPOV observer to accept the steady state RGE theory. So far, science has eliminated catastrophy as being 'impossible' because it is incompatible with the 'astronomer's dogma' (steady state theory). However this dogma is not provable, it is a matter of belief. I have no axe to grind, and am ready to be persuaded by valid argument based on the laws of physics, but not by 'ex cathera' dogmatic statements and straightforward bullying (I'm not accusing you of that, but it happens). GilesW 06:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC), edited GilesW 07:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about arguing the merits of fringe theories. It is about reporting the consensus of knowledge in the wider world. As such, this article should seek to fairly present Velikovsky's own views, but at the same time to indicate their general lack of acceptance outside a small circle of supporters. That those supporters attribute this lack of support to some kind of conspiracy by the mainstream scholarly community to keep Velikovsky down is perhaps worthy of mention as a comment on the beliefs of Velikovskians. It has no place in a discussion of mainstream science. As to NPOV on the runaway greenhouse effect theory, what NPOV pretty clearly demands is that we report the current status of opinion on the subject, not that we use our own supposed powers as "NPOV observers" to determine it for ourselves. My understanding of the consensus position is that a "runaway greenhouse effect" is the dominant position as to how Venus got to be so hot. And I genuinely don't understand your references to "steady state theory." As I understand it, steady state theory is a long discredited cosmological view which has nothing to do with Venus. john k 07:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Understood. However it is now mainstream science that Carl Sagan's "greenhouse effect by itself could not account for the conditions that we find on Venus." [[2]]. This leaves the door open, but nobody dares enter, or perhaps they don't realise the implications. GilesW 07:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Not quite. No one ever said that singular models account for all conditions. Nor is the greenhouse effect "Carl Sagan's". You're painting with a brush so large that it is essentially meaningless. --ScienceApologist 12:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Whatever may explain Venus's heat, it's pretty clearly not that it was a comet ejected from Jupiter in early historical times. john k 15:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Please re-read what I said. I originally asked "From an even handed viewpoint, how do the thermodynamics of Venus RGE (Saganist or otherwise) compare with Venus Catastrophy (Velikovskian or otherwise)?". I do not understand how Venus could possibly have been ejected by Jupiter, or how astronomers of the day could have observed the phenomenon even if it had happened. Hence my "or otherwise". However the answers given were not "from an even-handed viewpoint", but have a strong pro-Sagan POV. Does someone's failure to reject unquestioningly ALL V's hypotheses make them a Velikovskian? If so, I confess. GilesW 19:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop with this "pro-Sagan" bullshit. Sagan was only an ambassador of the astronomical community to the general public. He isn't an atmospheric science guru, that's for sure. The reasons that Velikovskian fantasies are ludicrous is not because Sagan says so, though Sagan is right in the matter and Velikovskian idiots are wrong... --ScienceApologist 21:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This resort to bullying abuse, and inability to respond objectively to a straightforward question of fact, does you and your cause no credit. GilesW 23:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a cause. Nor am I bullying anyone according to the standard definition. And I think that I've been pretty objective in my judgement of the global situation, though some may question my evaluation of the intelligence of Velikovskian supporters, I base my evaluation on their inability to understand very basic ideas. --ScienceApologist 00:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

By 'steady state theory' I did not mean the cosmological theory, but the theory referred to in some Velikovskian literature as 'the astronomer's dogma' about the long term stability of planetary orbits, which precludes a Venus catastrophy. GilesW 08:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Velikovskians are not reliable sources for describing the physical universe, that's for sure. --ScienceApologist 12:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

• Likewise some Wikipedian editors too. --Iantresman 15:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so you use language in an entirely esoteric way. good to know. john k 15:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Now, what is this all about? I read at the top of this page, "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Immanuel Velikovsky article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject."

But "general discussion about the article's subject" is exactly what seems to have been going on under this subhead. Or is someone (GilesW principally, I guess) proposing to add something about the Velikovskian theory on the temperature of Venus to the article?

Elucidate, please. -- Jmc 03:56, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that G-W wanted to include prose that went something like "Velikovsky's ideas are as supported by physics as the runaway greenhouse effect." This, of course, is not a supportable statement. --ScienceApologist 11:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Eh? GilesW 00:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Elucidation

I hesitate to publish this, as it could start another flame war, and will of necessity stray into the area of general discussion.

The V article of 15-Jun-2007 contains the following statements:

>Velikovsky's ideas have been almost entirely rejected by mainstream academia (often vociferously so) and his work is generally regarded as erroneous in all its detailed conclusions.

>Velikovsky's theories have generally been rejected or ignored by the academic community.

>Velikovsky's "Revised chronology" has been rejected by nearly all mainstream historians and Egyptologists

These statements imply that his work has been widely reviewed and assessed prior to its rejection. Nothing could be further from the truth. The rejection of AIC and V was orchestrated by a few influential and vociferous individuals (Shapley, Sagan and others). Having destroyed his reputation through (demonstrably unsound) attacks on AIC, his other books were largely ignored by academics: it was more than their jobs were worth to cite them, though several have built successful careers on individual hypotheses, without attribution.

I disagree with this evaluation. Those statement merely report the mainstream opinion of Velikovskian pseudoscience and nothing more. They don't purport to explain when the review and assessment was made. Moreover, that the attacks were "demonstrably unsound" is an opinion that has not stood up to any reliable source that I've seen. There is also no evidence that any scientist ever plaigarized Velikovsky to their own benefit. As such, these criticisms of the article prose ring hollow and do not serve as justification for deletion or revision. --ScienceApologist 12:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Einstein

After many weeks of friendly discussion with V, and re-reading WIC, Einstein changed his mind about it, and is quoted as saying "The scientists make a grave mistake in not studying [Worlds in Collision] because of the exceedingly important material it contains". The article should feature this and other favourable quotes at least as prominently as the 'V was wrong' quote.

Unfortunately E died before he could promote his opinion. This relationship was reportedly significant to both parties, and should be mentioned in the V article.

Not a very meaningful quote for including in our article since we don't know what "the exceedingly important material" was to which Einstein was referring. --ScienceApologist 12:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Venus

The Venus greenhouse effect is not universally accepted by scientists analysing Venus: for example, see:

http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Venus/VenusGreenhouse.html

>In the runaway-greenhouse explanation, Venus was said to be so hot that its water existed only as vapor and had no chance to condense to liquid on the surface. Water vapor rose into the atmosphere, where radiation from the Sun cracked it into separate oxygen and hydrogen atoms. The hydrogen escaped into space and water couldn't form.

>But the Ames researchers, looking at different climates on Venus, Earth and Mars, didn't like the runaway-greenhouse explanation. That old theory forgot that the Sun was 25 to 30 percent cooler 4.5 billion years ago. It also did not account for the water loss.

This is NOT an isolated example of dissent with RGE by mainstream scientists.

As I mentioned above, the “enhanced greenhouse effect” was devised by Sagan to account for probe results that were compatible with V's “advance claims”, and were (and still are) incompatible with conventional "uniformitarian" theories about the solar system (as were many of Sagan's other attempted refutations of V).

Of course a Venus catastrophy that accounts for its high temperature could easily be non-Velikovskian.

Overall I find the tone of the V article does not represent V's views fairly. It reads more like a kangaroo court, starting with the verdict, and repeating it ad nauseam, in a continuation of "The Velikovsky Affair".

I apologise if I have strayed off topic or been too controversial. I was asked to elucidate. Is there a forum for "general discussion about the article's subject" if we should not discuss these things here? GilesW 00:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The sole source you cite here is far from being reliable. As is, it basically represents the unvetted opinion of someone who apparently never learned enough about atmospheric theory to realize that a greenhouse doesn't work the same way as the greenhouse effect. --ScienceApologist 12:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• The tone of articles is indeed often pseudoskeptical, but Wikipedia requires verifiable reliable sources to support statements... and that is verifiable. --Iantresman 08:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the judgement of Einstein, who discussed with V at length and re-read V's work, to Shapley and others who did neither. The argument that non-establishment sources are not "verifiable reliable sources" and are thus not admissable as evidence is remeniscent of Catch 22. Velikovsky supported by Einstein were the skeptics, their mainstream opponents were not. The fact that much important raw data supports the skeptics and conflicts with mainstream hypotheses is glossed over, and an increasing number of mainstream specialists are coming to that conclusion relative to their own work (see above). A balanced NPOV view should be given by Wikipedia, and should not result in edit wars between people with entrenched positions. May be NPOV is impossible with V, and separate Pro & Anti articles are needed for controversial topics like this, to avoid edit wars. GilesW 09:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your attempt to elucidate, GilesW - your apology for straying into general discussion about V is appreciated. Your "elucidation", though, seems to me like a continuation of that same general discussion without any substantive proposal for editing the article - which is essentially what WP is all about.

You ask, "Is there a forum for 'general discussion about the article's subject' if we should not discuss these things here?" Yes, there are a number of such fora and a Google search will throw them up. You'll find one, for example, at Uplink - where, you'll be interested to see, inter alia there's currently discussion of Einstein's view of Velikovsky.

-- Jmc 09:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

If you think it is likely to be worth the effort I will try to compose a submission. However there seemes little point if pro-V efforts are going to be reverted by anti-V people who are perhaps unaware that V's theories are not as daft as they are made out to be by Sagan, Wikipedia et al, and also that there are back-eddies in the main stream where prize salmon may lurk... Based on previous 'discussions' I don't hold out much hope. Incidentally, thanks for the link. It looks like a valuable resource. Pity I'm short of time. GilesW 10:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm skeptical that you will create a submission that will be acceptable. You seem to be too wrapped up in your own POV and seem to want to debate rather than report. I encourage you to involve yourself in other fora where such activity is encouraged. If you are short of time, it may be better to simply provide us with reliable sources rather than composing prose attuned to your "pro-V" opinions. --ScienceApologist 12:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• Unlike those with an anti-Velikovskian POV who are completely impartial.--Iantresman 20:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
• Precisely. --ScienceApologist 23:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions for revisions

I suggest starting with:

• Ice-core studies paragraph, references required. The evidence is not cut & dried as stated. It contradicts Ginenthal's "Ice Core Evidence" paper (link on Article page).

• Venus temperature anomalies: discussed & some references given above. Google for others.

• Einstein relationship and citation of WIC, as stated above.

For further information see Carl Sagan & Immanual V, V Reconsidered, The V Affair, and V's own books. Remember that EIU contains an important supplement to WIC. These books all contain references to reliable sources. GilesW 16:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• There are no references that indicate that the evidence is not as cut and dried as you put it, so the first bullet is rejected.

The ice cores statement is unsupported by evidence let alone proof. References for such sweeping statements must be provided. The fact that the assertion is disputed must also be noted, with a link to the Ginenthal Ice Cores paper. GilesW 08:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• The relevance of "temperature" anomalies is not discussed in any journal article or standard reference on Venus as relevant to Velikovsky so this will not be included.

Give reliable references for this assertion. Nelsonian disregard of inconvenient data is standard operating procedure of those wedded to the anti-V cause. GilesW 08:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• Einstein's relationship should be referenced properly and its relevance to the issues involved should be made clear. Just because people are friends doesn't mean they are like-minded.

--ScienceApologist 23:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

"Books all contain references to reliable sources" are not necessarily reliable themselves. They may use these sources for irrelevant statements, or they may misrepresent these sources. Nothing in WiC is remotely compatible with modern science, and it was recognizable nonsense even at the time it was written.--Stephan Schulz 00:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that we're now discussing article revisions, rather than generally debating V's ideas. I'll be interested to see exactly what GilesW proposes adding/amending and the sources he's able to cite.

In particular, I'll be interested in the material on the V-Einstein relationship. What would be of notable significance would be any unequivocal endorsement that it could be reliably shown that E gave to V's ideas. However, in searching for any such endorsement over the years (including perusing the material under Einstein above), I've found nothing that goes beyond interest on E's part (and aren't we all interested in V's ideas, whatever our views of them?).

-- Jmc 03:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately Einstein made the mistake of dying before he had promoted his REVISED views of V's work, that he was studying around then. I don't know whether V's 'Stargazers and Gravediggers' adds anything to his 'Before the Day Breaks'. Does any information relevant to this exist in the Einstein archive [[3]], which says it is the repository of E's papers? GilesW 07:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Like a court-of-law, when a potential witnesses dies before testifying Wikipedia has no way to resurrect them and get their testimony from the grave. I'm afraid most of what I've read on the Einstein-Velikovsky connection is that they were direct correspondents with each other as they both lived in Princeton: but Einstein had thousands of correspondents at the time of his death. --ScienceApologist 12:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

On account of the overtly polemic tone of certain sections of the article, especially Emigration to the USA and a career as an author, I have tagged this article as non-neutral. Iblardi 20:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? What sentences in particular do you feel are non-neutral, and why? --Iantresman 00:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Certainly. I think the tone of parts of the article is too much in favour of Velikovsky's position. Two examples: (1) The unnecessary use of bold script in describing Velikovsky's line of reasoning: "...to the human failings of its creators. Among those was Petrie's desire not to see archeological confirmation of Israelite Biblical history", "the argument against this discrepancy is that these tiles were brought into the tomb by grave robbers". (2) Sentences like "Velikovsky dealt with the first two difficulties/discrepancies in his several books. The third discrepancy is under study" make it appear as if Velikovsky was actually right and scientists are currently examining the remaining argument. (Under study? By whom?) A similar sentence is: "One of the problems overlooked by Velikovsky's opponents in the fields of archeology and ancient history is that the conventional chronology of Egypt is itself an academic construct that remains to be proven, given a number of discrepancies and difficulties, whereas they sometimes use that unproven construct to argue against Velikovsky. This tautological reasoning cannot refute Velikovsky." This, again, sounds partisan-like. It makes it appear as if Velikovsky's chronology may very well be right, and it makes his opponents look rather dumb. To me, this looks like a lack of neutrality, which is why I placed the tag. Iblardi 16:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with all your examples, do you want to make changes? --Iantresman 17:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I would, but I don't really have the time or opportunity to do so these days. If you want to make changes, then by all means, go ahead. Iblardi 19:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Further to neutrality... on 17 June, 2007, there was a single large edit affecting many paragraphs and including considerable content change, made by 84.228.2.113 (contribs); and most of these changes are still in place. There are no other contributions from this ISP. The diffs for this edit are: (diff Template:Wp-diff; diff Template:Wp-diff). Some of the changes strike me as WP:POV. In particular, as of 16 July 2007 I have the following concerns:

• A long section inserted into the first paragraph of the section "Emigration to the USA and a career as an author", which is actually an extended argument for Velikovsky's position.
• In the section "Criticism", the addition to the first paragraph beginning as follows: At the same time, it should be recalled that Albert Einstein, the most famous physicist of the 20th century, always showed Velikovsky great respect
• In the section "Criticism", the second paragraph entirely, beginning as follows: One of the problems overlooked by Velikovsky's opponents ...
• The final sentence of subsection "Criticism of Worlds in Collision", which reads: On the other hand, the Italian mathematician, Emilio Spedicato, has seen partial confirmation of some of Velikovsky's positions in the phenomenon of the Apollo objects (Spedicato, 1985, 1990).

I think all these changes are dubious; but would appreciate thoughts from other editors before I do anything about it. -- Duae Quartunciae 07:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Exception... I am removing the last sentence now. It is not properly cited. I suspect the references are not notable; probably papers on Spedicato's personal website.[4] Worse, the sentence has no relevance to the specific criticisms made of Velikovsky in the same paragraph and preceding. The criticism being mentioned here is Velikovsky's completely nonsensical physics. Spedicato does nothing to address those criticisms. Velikovsky said nothing about Apollo objects. This is just another fringe catastrophist model, with slightly better physics but nothing else to recommend it. It might be regarded as "related ideas", but it is no vindication and irrelevant to the criticisms of this section. I have accordingly removed it. -- Duae Quartunciae 08:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Another exception. As I look at this text, I see a number of reasons for removing this paragraph. This used to be at the end of the top level Criticism section.

This has many problems. There is no citation; and it presumes a style of criticism that is not actually used. The real arguments against Velikovsky are more substantive than this, whether one agrees with them or not. This seems to be an excuse for rejecting any criticism at all by declaring it tu quoque and ignoring it. I think this is a fair enough case for removing it. -- Duae Quartunciae 11:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I for one support the removals you've already made, Duae Quartunciae, and would be happy for you to go ahead with the other emendations you've proposed, in the interests of restoring neutrality. In particular, I'd support your removal of the recently introduced material relating to Einstein's "great respect" for V. This matter has been canvassed here before, and no evidence has been adduced to demonstrate that Einstein showed anything more than polite interest in V's radical hypotheses.

-- Jmc 05:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Having allowed 24 hours, and had one vote of support, I'm going ahead to remove the Einstein aside, and a following sentence also. To see the diff I applied, Template:Wp-diff. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 10:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

And finally... in the immediately following edit to the one linked above, I have removed about half a long paragraph in the section on "Emigration to the USA and a career as an author", in which the text strays from a summary of Oedipus & Akhnaton into a possibly WP:POV argument for its validity. This wraps up the concerns I enumerated above. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 11:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Ted Holden material linked

Welcome to Wikipedia, Icebear1946. You would clearly like to insert into the article a link to a paper by Ted Holden on Venus. The paper is Holden, Ted, The Question of Thermal Balance on Venus (PDF) {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |formal= ignored (help). You have added this now three times, presuming you are also the anonymous editor. It has been removed twice, and will be removed again shortly. However, I'm explaining why it is being removed. You should have discussed this proposed addition when you saw that it was being deleted. The reasons this is being deleted are:

• It is not notable. It is on a private web page of Ted Holden. That will kill the additional right off the bat. See WP:NOTABLE.
• It is self promotion. I am pretty sure you are Ted. See WP:COI.
• It is in the wrong section. The paper is not a critique; but that is where you are putting it.
• The paper says very little about Velikovsky, and deals only with temperatures on Venus.
• The paper is physically nonsensical and relies on data that is long out of date, and on badly incorrect physics.

Since this is going to be removed again, and your restorations are reverts, you should check the 3-revert rule. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 11:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

As F.W. taylor noted at the time, the data from PV was not expected to be improved upon in the forseeable future, simple readings such as planetary albedo and emissions as good then as now, the physics of this one are both valid and relevant. There is no rational reason other than a desire to censor opposing points of view for anybody to wish to remove this article.

These articles either are or aren't editable by the public, you cannot have it both ways. Nobody gets to have their cake while eating it in this life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Icebear1946 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC).

Actually, the most serious problem with your proposed new link is not about the physics or the relevance, but the notability. It's a private web page. Self-promotion is also a problem in Wikipedia. It's not as serious a killer as notability, but the fact that it is your own web page, and that you did not declare your interest, will tend to count against its inclusion. It's also in the wrong section, since it is not a critique.

Welcome to wikipedia. Articles most certainly are editable by the public; we are both doing that. The public can undo misguided edits. The whole system works by a rather anarchistic consensus, but there are some conventions and guidelines that you need to consider for most effective participation. Take a bit of time to check out the conventions described in the information box right at the top of this talk page. You can sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). Also, don't try using those equals signs. Have a look at the established conventions for these discussions. By the way, I think I am inclined to agree with your queries presented on the main page about some of Ellenberger's articles. I've fixed two, one by Mewhinney; but the others you have marked might be something other editors or members of public could look into or even delete. I'm not sure. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 13:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Notability and self promotion??

First, I have no financial interest of any sort in this and the articles does not mention me or involve me in any way.

Second, the material for the article is entirely from the official compendium of papers related to the Pioneer Venus effort i.e.

"VENUS", Hunton, Colin, Donahue, Moroz, Univ. of Ariz. Press, 1983, ISBN 0-8165-0788-0

which is certainly better than "Skeptic Magazine" which Ellenberger cites for one of his articles. I could at least equal that by publishing the article in the journal of the WWF which you might notice occasionally in drugstore magazine racks.

Aside from saving the interested reader the near $100 price of the book, all I really do in the article is describe the manner in which all articles related to thermal balance in the book end up claiming that the particular instruments or methods in question failed when, in fact, all that any of them really fail to do is produce the results which would be expected based upon the uniformitarian paradigm. A reader who questions my judgment in this can purchase or check out a copy of the book and go through it himself; what I have described is what he will in fact find.

The articles dealing with IR flux meters are mainly authored by Revercomb and Suomi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icebear1946 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't use the line of equals signs, and please sign your comments with the tildes. Money has nothing to do with self-promotion. Also, if you do actually have a good reference for the article sufficient for the notability guideline, then you should put it in the link when it is queried. The idea is that we all assume we are trying to improve the article in good faith, even when we disagree. In my case, I don't think your particular ideas about temperature on Venus really have anything much at all to do with this article. The fundamental criticisms of Velikovsky mentioned in this article have nothing to do with heat on Venus, but with the physically impossible motions required by Velikovsky. In other words, this paper is purported to refute a criticism which does not even appear in this article. So I don't think your article is at all relevant. Don't take offense at that... the idea is that this page is used for these kinds of discussion. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 14:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

One more point. The citation you give to Venus is irrelevant. Your paper is not included in that compendium, and the particular inferences you draw from that data are not in the compendium either. There's a guideline here called No original research, which means that you may not make an original argument for relating the material published in Venus to a defense of Velikovsky. You have to actually cite a reference that makes that linkage already in a verifiable form. There's a special term for this guideline; it's called synthesis. The upshot of all this is that your reference is not going to stand. This is not saying you are a bad person for proposing it; suggestions are welcome. But there's a long established set of guidelines for helping maintain a reasonable level of quality as well as permitting continuous input from the public. What's going to happen here is that you will be thanked for your proposed inclusion, and it is going to be removed for the reasons I've given. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 14:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

>The idea is that we all assume we are trying to improve the article in good faith...

Are you a professional comedian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icebear1946 (talk • contribs) 14:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Icebear1946 has without discussion reverted to restore the link to Ted's article, despite reasons given above for why it is inappropriate. He has also removed without comment a number of other citations. Here are the diffs Icebear1946 applied: (Template:Wp-diff). Here is the previous edit that Icebear1946 reverted: (Template:Wp-diff). Again, I strongly recommend reading the guidelines at the top of this talk page. There are indications of what is expected of content in an article; and suggestions for how we engage with each other to resolve differences. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 11:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

He added it again. I removed again. Icebear1946... you should discuss contentious edits here. Your real problem is that the guidelines, which are designed to help resolve differences of opinion, are pretty straightforward. You should bear in mind that there is a hard limit on how many reverts you are permitted within 24 hours. See three revert rule. Note that I am not acting alone here. The removal of your link was by another editor, with reference to the policies I was explaining for you above. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 11:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Ellenberger/MeWhinney articles as a one-time experiment to see if you and your cronies were capable of learning anything from the exercise; obviously you are not.

Simple fairness says that a reader should not stumble upon this page and see the one article of Charles Ginenthals surrounded by nine or ten ignorant rants coming from Ellenberger, MeWhinney, Sagan et. al. You should get used to the idea that I and others will continue reinserting the thermal balance article until hell freezes over if need be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icebear1946 (talk • contribs) 11:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Defenses of Velikovsky

I have added a new subsection within external links, for defenses of Velikovsky. One of the problems with Ted's additions is that he was putting defenses into a section marked criticisms. I've moved the two links that are actually defenses into the new section. Ι still think these links are dubious; some reasons are given above. The citation format is poor, and they go to a private website of dubious credibility. For my part, I'm happy to leave them here as a compromise; and leave further developments if any to other editors. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 15:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Works for me..... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Icebear1946 (talk • contribs) 16:00, 20 July 2007.

Putting the 'Ted Holden' link in a new 'Defenses of Velikovsky' section is certainly better than inappropriately adding it to 'Critiques'.

I agree with Duae Quartunciae that it's a pretty dubious addition, though. The PDF that it links to has no acknowledgment of authorship and no references, so IMO fails to meet the WP criteria for acceptable external links.

At the same time, I can see that there is a case for letting it remain as evidence of the poverty of current argument in defence of Velikovsky.

I should add that might be more accepting of Icebear1946's additions if he showed a competence in basic conventions of WP editing, in particular the signing of contributions (I don't think he's yet signed any of his numerous edits) and an understanding of the three revert rule which is specifically designed to prevent an editor from "reinserting [an] article until hell freezes over if need be".

-- Jmc 22:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to live with the agreement; apparently somebody else wasn't. I assume there's no harm in reinserting the defense links when they get vandalized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icebear1946 (talk • contribs)

Please avoid the insults and personal attacks you have written here and in multiple comments above.

Removing a reference that is not a reliable source is not vandalism (WP:V, WP:RS). An unfounded accusation of vandalism is uncivil and a form of personal attack. (WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF).

I removed that reference for these reasons:

• It is a self-published essay.
• It does not include any information at all about the author's qualifications or notability.
• It does not include any references to third-party sources.
• There are no other editors on this page currently who agree with your desire to include the essay.

If you can show that the author of the essay is a reliable source, with consensus from the editors on this page, then the essay can be included. --Parzival418 _Hello 04:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

=================================================

Legalistic sophistry not withstanding, you are in fact engaging in vandalism. Aside from my own article you have also twice removed the article written by Charles Ginenthal which has been on this page for some time.

The thermal balance article is now properly attributed, and again it arises from material published in the official compendium of articles related to Pioneer Venus.

At this stage of the game, I am obeying the spirit of the rules here, amorphous though they might be, and YOU are not. Keep it up and we'll see who gets banned.

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For the record; there was no agreement. I made my own change unilaterally, without any prior comment or agreement from Icebear1946, only because I wanted to back off individually and defer to a larger consensus. No action here by any of those involved has so far been vandalism. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 04:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)