Talk:Pentium (original)

Pentium E1000

It looks like it's canceled. [Here] And [Here] It's Going To Be The Pentium E2000, Shouldn't This Be Updated? -- From derangedfirewire --- 20:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Proper MMX preciseification

Attention: I removed the expression that MMX was a "major significance". The reason is: the differences between the P54C and the P55C were indeed very little. The MMX had doubled the internal cache, and at the presentation time there were hardly any mmx-optimized applications. As a matter of fact, the transitin to MMX was very light. Initial BIOS didn't even allow the use of MMX (there were to many non-mmx Pentium in stock).--AlexProfesor 02:20, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Some links to specifications (i.e. number of registers, instruction set etc.) would be nice. --HJH

Pentium vs "586" name

The "numbers can't be trademarked" issue -- how does this compare to Peugeot who registered all 3-digit numbers of the form x0y as trademarks? Is the difference that Peugeot registered then in France? Should also mention why the trademark issue arose -- Intel's 486 line had been dogged by AMD and other clone manufacturers who made similar, cheaper (better?) CPUs, and sought to register "586" as a trademark to distinguish its product. This ties in with the appearance of the ubiquitous "intel inside" sticker. -- Tarquin

I can think of many other products that have numbers as legitimate trademarks: Boeing 747, Levi's 501, Heinz 57 Sauce. There must be more to this than just simply a rejection of numerals as a trademark. Mattnelsen 15:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

266 Mhz Pentium MMX?

Can anyone confirm whether there was a 266 MHz Pentium MMX meant for laptops? Crusadeonilliteracy

There definately was a pentium at 266 and 300 for mobile pc's only. here is a link to Intel's website which discusses this. http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/quickreffam.htm

Ahh, so my memory wasn't faulty. I saw a desktop computer for sale with a supposed 266MHz Pentium MMX in it some years ago. Crusadeonilliteracy

I suppose that the article should be modified to clarify that the 266 and 300 Mhz versions were for mobile computing only.

Why not "Intel Pentium"?

...as the title of this article? I'd rename it promptly save for any protests. --Wernher 03:11, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Inconsistency

I'm not really too familiar w/ the details I'm about to address, I just know that there's an inconsistency somewhere. The article says:

P5 Pentiums used Socket 4, while P54 started out on Socket 5 before moving to Socket 7 in later revisions. All desktop Pentiums from P54C onwards used Socket 7.

I hold in my hand a Pentium 133 which just came out of a socket rather clearly marked "Socket 5." Trouble is, the table shows that the 133 speed became available with the P54C series, and hence must have used a Socket 7. So which one is wrong? Bgruber 01:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This page contradicts the article, which would suggest to me that the article is wrong. When taken alongside BalusC's information, it would appear a correct phrasing would actually be:

All desktop Pentiums (excluding Pentium Overdrive) 150 MHz and faster used Socket 7.

— Aluvus ^t/c 02:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Pentium model 13?

Can anybody tell me what is this?I'm using this processer on my Sony laptop.Thanks.

It's not a Pentium of the sort to which this page refers. It's a Pentium M Dothan; the CPUID of "0x6Dx" for a Dothan means that the family is 6 and the model is 13 (hex D). Guy Harris 03:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.I have 1496MHz CPU shown on the System Information,but when I use the EAsy System Info(a program of the EA games used to test computers)to test my laptop,it shows only 598MHz?Why is this happening?Is it because of I'm using a Dual-core CPU?And by the way,what is the diffrance between Pentium model 13 and Pentium III? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vintei (talk • contribs) 17:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC).

In answer to your first question, I have no idea. In answer to your second question, the answer is "no", because Dothan isn't a dual-core CPU.

The Wikipedia is probably not the best place to use as a message board for discussing this (and I don't know what is).

In answer to your third question, see the Pentium III and Pentium M pages. Guy Harris 00:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

5th generation?

Seems like it's the 6th generation..

• 1 - 8086
• 2 - 80186
• 3 - 80286
• 4 - 80386
• 5 - 80486
• 6 - Pentium

70.231.144.169 08:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the "5th generation" term comes from ignoring the 80186 - I don't remember whether IBM made any 80186/80188-based machines, but I don't think they did; I forget what clone makers were around at the time, but I think they went straight to the 80286 as well. Guy Harris 08:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Also it seems the 186 wasn't exactly a radical change but just a replacement of some of the slower microcode with dedicated hardware. Plugwash 15:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There weren't any 186-based pure PC clones due to the 186's on-board timers, DMA and interrupt controllers being mapped differently to those of the PC/XT architecture. However there were some 186 quasi-clones like the RM Nimbus and the Tandy 2000 running MS-DOS with a custom BIOS. Letdorf 22:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Introduced over a range of dates?

P55C 120-150 MHz has a range of dates rather than a single date of introduction. What does this mean exactly? -- Smjg 15:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Intro

The intro paragraph in the current version is

The Pentium brand name initially referred only to the fifth-generation microarchitecture of microprocessors from Intel, called Intel P5 and described here, but later it covered also subsequent generations. So, the Pentium as Intel P5, considered here, was a successor to the 486 line, and was first shipped on March 22, 1993.

Is it just me or is this an abrupt and somewhat confusing first paragraph to someone looking to simply find out what "Pentium" means?

It strikes me that were it placed a bit later (and in context) it would be fine. Here it just seems badly written.

(Also, it doesn't even mention which specific "microarchitecture's" fifth generation is being discussed. That may seem obvious to us- but it shouldn't be taken for granted). Fourohfour 14:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've reworked the intro/overview and moved some stuff elsewhere. It's not perfect- IMHO there are still some bits that arguably belong in their own sections. However, I reckon it's better organised now. Let me know what you think, thanks. Fourohfour 15:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Pentium Brand

Although I agree that this article is slightly torn between covering the Pentium brand and the actual P5 Pentium line, the current version of the "Pentium brand" article doesn't do anything that isn't covered just as well in the Pentium article itself. Any thoughts? Fourohfour 15:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that there are at least three articles mingled here: Intel 586 (for lack of a better name), Pentium brand, and the sequence of Intel implementations of x86. It would be good to make these separate articles. I created Pentium brand as a start. Much more work is needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DHR (talk • contribs).

The idea behind it is good, but as it stands you're right; it needs more work, as it currently doesn't add anything. Fourohfour 20:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I have moved the article to Pentium (brand) and will move some of the content too. Fourohfour 18:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Latest changes to article and intro

I notice that some people disagreed with the changes I made to the article; fair enough, but I'd prefer that they'd explained any perceived problems in more depth, instead of using intermittent edit summaries.

Regarding the "redundancy, contradictions, irrelevant info; correction of casual language; addition of proper terminology, references instead of their poor repetitions, etc., etc" referred to in this edit by 141.157.253.112:-

1. I altered the original version because it did have a proper opening sentence that placed things in context. It was like coming in during the middle of an article. The change removes/reverted this opening sentence and replaces it with "The Pentium[1] brand originally referred only to the Intel's "P5" (or "Intel P5") fifth-generation microarchitecture of x86-compatible microprocessors."). Same problem; it starts discussing the Pentium brand without properly "introducing" us. As an opening paragraph, it sounds wrong. Remember that we know what a Pentium is; we should not assume that all readers do.
2. Since you attacked me for redundancy, it's ironic that "...referred only to the Intel's "P5" (or "Intel P5") fifth-generation microarchitecture..." pointlessly duplicates the "P5" name. Unless these are very official terms, there's no point in duplicating it.

In this edit set. some of the English is very bad and confusing:-

1. "(sometimes referred to also as "Pentium", because encompasing just that one brand processors)"

Huh?

1. "... Pentium M, Pentium Dual-Core (of only 2007), etc."

What is "of only 2007" supposed to refer mean? It doesn't make sense. If you want to criticise my writing, that's your choice; however, a lot of your changes were nonsensical.

(The reference refers to Intel's standardisation of names, but the relevance of this is unclear; the list only needs to include a few non-P1 Pentium names, not all of them).

I also dispute that my use of language was "casual". Please point out where you felt this was the case, because I'm struggling to see why you think that.

Anyway, I'm moving some stuff to Pentium (brand), as this article clearly suffers from trying to cover both the CPU line and the use of the brand as a whole. It makes more sense to separate them. Fourohfour 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Improvement? (Third opinion sought)

Okay; I'm seeking a third party opinion on whether the major changes made by 141.157.253.112 ("Anon") are an improvement. (Note also Anon's changes from a previous cycle.)

I don't know if Anon will take part in this discussion. I've made a sincere attempt to address what I saw as major problems with the original opening (see above) and convert it into a proper intro/overview, but there is clearly some problem between us regarding the style of these changes.

I wouldn't mind if Anon raised his/her problems properly, but he/she simply makes vague references to my (supposed) "casual" language via edit summaries, and doesn't explain further (and doesn't contribute to the talk page).

Here are my problems with Anon; I don't think the style of the new version is an improvement. This person has criticised my writing style (which is admittedly far from perfect). Yet they themselves have made spelling mistakes, used weird grammatical constructs, included redundancy and (IMHO) generally obfuscated what is trying to be said.

He/she may have some valid concerns about my version of the article, but rather than raise them properly, Anon just makes radical changes which (IMHO) introduce more problems than they solve.

Fourohfour 20:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Additional: See, this is what I have a problem with. Anon has simply removed a dab line without explanation; maybe there's a good reason for it. Or maybe he/she doesn't know or care how WP works. Who knows- why should I second-guess someone if they won't bother even doing proper edit summaries? Fourohfour 20:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I find in favour of the anon. There is a clear improvement, in many areas including content , grammer and style. It is also much easier to understand too, for non-experts like me! However I do not see many problems raised by the changes. I suggest you leave this article alone, as you seem to be too possesive of it. It is common for someone who has made a page, or made major changes to become possesive, and not want any changes. The new article is a sound description. Mattbroon 11:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• I think Mattbroon was your third opinion, but if you want a fourth then I would say that as long as you keep the anon's subject matter, any grammatical changes you make should not be reverted by the anon. Bad grammar and diction can be improved, but style and content is something you all shouldn't argue over. If reverts are being made to obvious grammatical and spelling errors, it would see misguided or possibly vandalish. I don't think either is the case here. Bulldog123 17:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions.

I'm not sure whether Mattbroon is referring to Anon's changes made after I posted my third party request (but before he commented!) or the previous edit set that prompted the request.

With respect, I don't see why my actions are any more "possessive" than those of Anon.

My last edits were basically a reversion... but that was because my previous edit had addressed most of Anon's apparent concerns. (In one minor area of wording I accepted he was correct and retained the change). There was no point in my making further changes in that context.

IMHO, most of my changes were for grammar reasons; I'll discuss any below in future. Fourohfour 20:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Response from 141.157.253.112: Fourohfour, loosen up!

To see the difference compare my corrections with previous versions. How do you know that you may not be sophisticated enough to see the difference? Please, do not subject the whole world to your ego and do not proclaim yourself an ultimate judge!!! Please, do not ruin my effort only, because you feel hurt by corrections of your language. Please, accept the fact that you make mistakes like everyone else including myself.

My objective was only to make a few article headers clear for non-experts, strict, accurate, neutral, complete, and cross-referenced by removing logical errors, using consistently proper terminology, but in a simple and easily understandable way, adding missing critical details and references, e.g. about TDP, and I am practically done, though my style needs correction sometimes; my previous IP address was 151.202.72.24. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.253.112 (talk • contribs).

You said

"To see the difference compare my corrections with previous versions."

I did.

However, the edit summary is there for a good reason; it makes keeping track of changes easier and it lets you explain the reasons for the edit.

For example, why did you remove the disambiguation line to "Pentium (brand)" at the start? Your reasoning is unclear.

To me, it looked like someone had removed a useful (and valid) disambiguation line.

"How do you know that you may not be sophisticated enough to see the difference?"

This genuinely made no sense to me, because I hadn't accused myself of lacking sophistication(!!!)

After a while I realised that you meant "How do you know that? You may not be sophisticated enough to see the difference?"

It is confusing (if not blatantly incorrect) grammar like this that made your introductory paragraph hard to read.

Accusing *me* of "lacking sophistication" is ironic; you're clearly no expert in the use of language yourself.

Next;

"Please, do not subject the whole world to your ego and do not proclaim yourself an ultimate judge!!!"

Consider this. I admitted that my edits weren't perfect. And significantly, I was the one who requested a third party opinion to resolve our dispute.

So your accusations of egotism and considering myself "an ultimate judge" are frankly laughable.

Prior to this, I had tried to engage you in discussion about our mutual problems with each others edits. No response.

Your edits were as major as mine. And you're accusing *me* of arrogance?!!!

"Please, do not ruin my effort only"

Spare me the self-pitying persecution complex. I was not trying to "ruin" your effort.

I had already changed my previous version to address your apparent concerns. I felt that the new version fixed the problems. Since I knew you were planning on re-editing, I felt that it made more sense for both of us to discuss our edits instead of wasting more time doing stuff that was going to be overwritten.

You're complaining now, but the fact is that I attempted to get your opinion and start a discussion and you were the one that ignored this.

In light of this, I simply judged your edits on their own merits. With one minor exception, I couldn't see how they were an improvement, and there was no point in attempting to rewrite my own version to address your concerns, because you wouldn't discuss them. So I reverted to my version in good faith.

What would you have done in my position?

"because you feel hurt by corrections of your language."

You repeatedly made vague references to my "casual" language, but did not explain how it was "casual".

Did you mean that my language was "imprecise"? That is a different matter altogether.

"Please, accept the fact that you make mistakes like everyone else including myself."

I accepted that you were correct in one area and acknowledged this. (Intel used the phrase "introduced on" in their text, so I accepted you changing it back to that instead of "shipped on").

"though my style needs correction sometimes"

Yes, that is what I was trying to correct, mostly. You reverted and/or made drastic changes to this. Fourohfour 19:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

One other thing; regarding this edit summary comment:

"Fourohfour, do not play God, your language is terrible, see my discussion posting instead, please!!"

I already explained why this "playing God" accusation is baseless.... but regarding my supposedly "terrible" language you keep banging on about... please provide an example of this.

Either way, it's a farcical accusation coming from someone who keeps making stupid grammar mistakes (see above) and can't spell "distinguished". Fourohfour 20:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Points of dispute

With reference to these edits by Anon, I'd like to raise some points. If they seem longwinded, it's because I'm trying to explain my problems with the article. IMHO these are mainly issues of style and language, rather than factual disputes. Fourohfour 21:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Dab line

Why was the disambiguation line removed?

It was both useful and an absolutely standard Wikipedia way of differentiating two identically-named articles covering different subjects. Pentium specifically describes the P5 chips themselves, whereas the Pentium (brand) article covers the overall use of the brand. Fourohfour 21:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Strange grammar put back

"Introduced on March 22, 1993[3], the Pentium succeeded the Intel486 signifying the fourth-generation.". I tried fixing this before. It was changed. Is this saying that the Pentium signifies the fourth generation? Because that's how it can be read.

Long list?

"Later, Intel used Pentium in the names of newer generations of x86 processors branded as the Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, Pentium 4, Pentium D. " Does the list really need to be this long? It's not complete anyway, and nor should it be; the article only needs to emphasise that the name was used for later generations, giving enough examples to make this clear. Details on subsequent use are dealt with by Pentium (branding).

Use of expression "Pentium brand" to refer specifically to original i586s

A problem with this article is that it mixes the two use of the word "Pentium"; the umbrella brand, and the original i586 "Pentium" line.

I strongly dispute that "Pentium branded CPUs" must only be taken to refer to the original line (or that the "Pentium II" CPUs don't use the Pentium brand).

Examples from a quick Google search on "Pentium brand":-

• "Fifteen years of the Pentium brand came to an end today". Clearly, "Pentium brand" isn't being used to refer to the original "P5" generation here.
• Pentium brand returns, but it's really a Core 2.
• Intel drops Pentium brand (in January 2006?!)

Specifically in the new version "...the Pentium brand refers to Intel's single core..." is (IMHO) vague. I'm not sure that a widely-used "brand" can refer to anything that specifically. It's arguable that the "Pentium II" chips include the Pentium branding. Would it not be clearer to say that the original i586 Pentiums were *named* simply 'Pentium'.

Since the potential for confusion has been shown to exist, I feel that my version was better because it made clearer that it specifically meant the "P5"/i586 line.

This shows the same problem:- "Although they shared the x86 instruction set with the P5 generation (sometimes also referred to as "Pentium"), their microarchitectures were radically different from the Pentium branded CPUs'." Fourohfour 21:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Solution: Rename "Pentium (brand)" to "Pentium brands".

Fourohfour, please, try to be constructive. I do not have time for lengthy debates. In short: style is less important than content in encyclopedias, the first sentence shall introduce the topic, articles should be as simple and short as possible (use facts and references, but avoid: repetitions, adjectives, empty phrases, subjective points, etc.), facts should be listed in order of importance, short descriptions should be included for convenience (to avoid over-referencing), but long descriptions should be referenced instead, everything should be strict and logical. Do not believe everything you read, because people do mistakes, often are incompetent, because - lazy and/or lacking capacity to understand complex issues, etc., etc.

Most important, BE CONSTRUCTIVE and patient.

I make mistakes especially stylistic, but, please, do not dismiss my contribution because of it. Please, do not use my stylistic errors as a pretext to deprive readers of vital info I provide in a as strict and logical manner as I can, which may be difficult to correct, because of its density. You waist you time listing my errors in the discussion; just write silent notes in the text (<!—???-->), and I will make corrections.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.253.112 (talk • contribs).

This reply will be as long as I feel is necessary to answer your accusations. Important stuff is in bold if you're really in a hurry.

1. I resent being accused of not being "constructive". Aiming to improve the legibility of the opening paragraph was constructive. Attempting to engage you in discussion was constructive. Please assume good faith. Although I disagree with many of your edits, I have always assumed that you did them for what you thought were good reasons. Please extend the same courtesy to me.
2. When you say that "style is less important than content in encyclopedias", I believe you misunderstand what writing style means here. Perhaps you associate "style" with superficiality. It simply refers to a way of writing; writing style here should be concerned with legibility, understandability, organisation (i.e. accessibility) and precision. Exactly the things you were concerned about.
3. I did not try to remove your material- I tried to tidy it up. I explain my reasons for this via the summary; I wish you would too because it's a pain in the backside trying to figure out your reasons for changing text.
4. I have never "dismissed your contribution"; if you still think this, you have blinkers on. My changes to your edits were mostly issues of wording and legibility. Only when I could not see the purpose of your further edits (and you did not explain them) did I revert them.
5. I have never used your stylistic errors as an excuse to dismiss the factual content of your edits. (Unless it was so badly written that I couldn't understand what it meant).
6. It is ironic that you admit that your writing style is not perfect, and yet you appear to be lecturing me on this *and* reverting my attempted improvements to your style.
7. Discussions should be conducted on the talk page, not via article comments. At most, comments should be used to note a persistent problem that may otherwise be overlooked. In such cases, they should be short, and refer the user to the talk page if necessary.
8. Talking of comments, Why should I leave comments for you to tidy your own work up anyway? Spend more time writing it better in the first place if you think it's not good enough. You accuse me of "playing God" and being proprietorial, but what's the problem you have with me editing your comments for reasons of style/clarity?!
9. What has the title of this section "Solution: Rename "Pentium (brand)" to "Pentium brands" got to do with the rest of it?

Fourohfour 19:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Rename "Pentium (brand)" to "Pentium trademark".

Since the Pentium trademark was not consistently used for one category of CPUs, as the Xeon or Celeron were, it is impossible to classify it as a name of homogenous and exclusive group beyond the P5 fifth-generation of CPUs, so the only possibility to classify it consistently in its broad meaning seems to be as a trademark, what it actually is.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.253.112 (talk • contribs).

If you are talking about the Pentium (brand) article, the name of the brand or trademark is Pentium, so it should be Pentium (brand) or Pentium (brands) or Pentium (trademark), or whatever. That's the way articles are titled on WP.

With respect, are you aware of the precise meanings and usages of words such as "brand" and "trademark", and the nuances and differences between them? I'm not, and I see no sign that you are either. So conducting a discussion and/or editing the article as if we (or you) do is silly and misleading.

I do not claim expertise in this area, but if it is a problem, perhaps we should ask others with more experience. Fourohfour 19:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

As with Pentium (brand), I'm refraining from editing this article at present. This isn't an endorsement of the current version- I just don't think that making changes before the problem is solved will be constructive. Going by past experience, any changes I make- for reasons of clarity and readability- will likely be rewritten by 141.157.253.112 ("Anon").

Please don't misread this as "giving in". I still feel strongly about the issue, and after leaving this for a couple of days (to let things settle down), I'll look into more constructive ways of resolving this dispute. Fourohfour 20:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)