Talk:Fahrenheit 9/11/Not a documentary

Moore's Film NOT Documentary

A documentary film is one that holds facts as such, not distorted to favor a bias. Documentary labeling this film by Moore gives documentary film makers a bad name- we might as well call Sci-Fi movies documentaries as well. As much interest as one may have in the issue of Moore's movie one must realize that opinion is not fact, misrepresentation of reality is not fact and blatent lies are not fact. This movie is an op-ed piece of off-color political entertainment and should not be construed as fact or documentary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haamerhed (talk • contribs) 04:42 UTC, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've seen this argument put on one or two extreme rightwing websites. It seems to be an attempt to rule polemic pieces as a separate genre from documentary. While the idea of classifying political opinion pieces separately from other documentary pieces may have its merits, it is not normal practice. Film-makers, critics and the general public alike, all describe such pieces as documentaries. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:29, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The problem with calling Farenheit 9/11 a documentary is that Michael Moore deliberately attempted to misinform viewers of his movie. Documentary implies that he itended to inform his viewers. Lets consider what I consider to be the most egregious example of this, the segment near then end when he talks about congressmen sending their children to war.

1. Moore claims that "out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq". In fact, at the time of the movie there were six children of congressmen serving in the military and two serving in Iraq. Moore doesn't count the son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter (who quit his job after 9/11 and was deployed to Iraq in February 2004) because he is a second lieutenant (and therefore not an enlisted man). But his comments are specifically designed to make viewers believe that only one son of congressman was serving in our military, even though Moore knew otherwise.
2. Moore edits the film to make it appear as if Representative Kennedy refuses to help him pass out his flyers. In fact, Moore's own transcript contains the following exchange: "Moore: Is there any way you could help me with that? Kennedy: How would I help you? Moore: Pass it out to other members of Congress. Kennedy: I’d be happy to — especially those who voted for the war. I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan."
3. Moore depicts Representative Castle as being unwilling to send any of his children to Iraq, but fails to inform viewers that Representative Castle has no children.
4. Moore uses the entirety of the segment to make the point that fewer members of congress sent their children to Iraq than did reqular Americans. The reality is that on average children of Congressmen were significantly MORE likely to have fought in Iraq than children without a parent serving in congress.

The entire segment was deliberately designed to create a false impression. I don't have a problem with POV documentaries (on the contrary, I LOVE them including left wing films like Bowling for Columbine and Fog of War), but when you deliberately design a film to communicate information that you know to be false (As I think the above evidence clearly proves Michael Moore did) it is a propaganda film.

Nobody ever calls a film they like a propaganda film. They are usually labeled documentaries or newsreels. But you can't change what something is by labeling it diferently. --Jsolinsky 19:18, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, you can't change what it is by labeling it as propaganda. The film industry, IMDB, the press consider it a documentary. So it'll be a documentary here on Wikipedia. We've been over this argument many times, please read the archive. Rhobite 19:35, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

• IMDB lists it as a documentary because they don't have a category for propaganda.
• IMDB also lists Triumph des Willens by Leni Riefenstahl in the same category, but it describes the film thusly "The infamous propaganda film of the 1934 Nazi Party rally in Nuremberg, Germany"
• IMDB further says this about its genre classifications "Most movies can easily be described with certain umbrella terms, such as Westerns, dramas, or comedies. Of course, some films defy such ready qualification, so realize that these are generalizations."
• Wikipedia says this "there has been some debate over whether or not these three films are actual documentaries or not" in reference to Farenheit 9/11 and other films

I've reviewed the archive. Given the clear evidence that Farenheit 9/11 is propaganda, the absence of any contrary evidence, and the acknowledgement by IMDB that their genre classifications are generalizations and that their documentary category includes propaganda, I don't see how you can remedy calling Farenheit 9/11 a documentary with Wikipedia:NPOV. ESPECIALLY since Wikipedia itself says that there is a controversey surrounding the use of this label.--Jsolinsky 20:14, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I won't get into a discussion on this subject here because I've discussed allegations similar to yours elsewhere. You have to recognise that what you're doing here is precisely what you're accusing Moore of doing--expressing your opinion and representing it as fact. There are other interpretations of the facts upon which you base your statements about F9/11. It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong about that, there is a firm consensus that polemics and op eds fall firmly within the scope of the term documentary. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:10, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have NEVER written on an entry thet "Farenheit 9/11 is not a documentary". That would be POV (my POV). I am accusing you of expressing your POV that is a documentary by putting it in wikipedia entries. As I have written elsewhere, once I clean up the F9/11 controversy info, I intend to put out an RfC.

As far as there being a firm consensus that F911 is a documentary, then why does the very entry that you cite (documentary film) say otherwise. --Jsolinsky 01:49, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've read documentary film and the most that can be said about that article is that it acknowledges that some people have questioned whether F9/11 is a documentary. It is a bit like an article about Earth acknowledging the existence of people who question the earth's roundness. By all neutral standards, F9/11 is a documentary. If Ann Coulter made a movie in which she presented her opinion, that would also be a documentary. It would be extremely naive to believe that a documentary necessarily presents a point of view that every single viewer wll agree with. It's a documentary that presents Michael Moore's point of view, just as Cosmos presented Carl Sagan's (intensely secular, vehemently anti-war) point of view and the many David Attenborough documentary series present Attenborough's naturalist, conservationist and ecologist point of view.

"It is a bit like an article about Earth acknowledging the existence of people who question the earth's roundness. By all neutral standards, F9/11 is a documentary." More appropriately it would be like watching a movie that declares the Earth flat and critics call it "The Truth". The simple and plain fact of the matter- if it isn't true- it's not documentary. Haamer.

It suddenly occurs to me that your main problem with Moore's movie may well be that you think that a documentary must not be presented in such a manner as to emphasize and support a political argument. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I've written elsewhere, I like Documentaries with a point of view, Moore's earlier work included. My problem is best summarized by the following definition submitted by somebody else in the next section: "Documentary film is a broad category of cinematic expression united by the intent to remain factual or non-fictional."

Michael Moore INTENTIONALY deceived viewers of 9/11. He deliberately chose words and edited footage to create a movie with the intent and effect of convincing viewers of "facts" which Moore himself knew were false. That crosses the line for me. --Jsolinsky 02:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion that Moore deceived his viewers, and to the opinion that he did so intentionally. These are opinions. When you state them as fact, well you have the burden of proof. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 03:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here is conclusive proof that Moore intentionally deceived his viewers (the film is rife with similar examples. I use this one because Moore was actually present when the documented events occured and he is consequently damned by his own transcripts. In other areas of the film, Moore could plausibly plead ignorance.):

Lets consider just the segment near then end when he talks about congressmen sending their children to war.

1. Moore edits the film to make it appear as if Representative Kennedy refuses to help him pass out his flyers. In fact, Moore's own transcript contains the following exchange: "Moore: Is there any way you could help me with that? Kennedy: How would I help you? Moore: Pass it out to other members of Congress. Kennedy: I’d be happy to — especially those who voted for the war. I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan."
2. Moore claims that "out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq". In fact, at the time of the movie there were six children of congressmen serving in the military and two serving in Iraq. Moore doesn't count the son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter (who quit his job after 9/11 and was deployed to Iraq in February 2004) because he is a second lieutenant (and therefore not an enlisted man). But his comments are specifically designed to make viewers believe that only one son of congressman was serving in our military, even though Moore knew otherwise (hence his use of the word enlisted).
3. Moore depicts Representative Castle as being unwilling to send any of his children to Iraq, but fails to inform viewers that Representative Castle has no children.
4. Moore uses the entirety of the segment to make the point that fewer members of congress sent their children to Iraq than did reqular Americans. The reality is that on average children of Congressmen were significantly MORE likely to have fought in Iraq than children without a parent serving in congress.

The entire segment was deliberately designed to create a false impression. It worked, viewers of Farenheit 9/11 almost universally left the theatre accepting as fact an entire line of argument that was demonstrably false. --Jsolinsky 07:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Amazingly enough, there is a documentary about Moore's Mocumentary that bears that burden; http://www.fahrenhype911.com/

These are accusations that I've seen before. They state assumptions about the purpose of certain edits and the conclusion that Moore intends the audience to draw. Then they state facts that conflict with those assumptions and claim that this is evidence that the film maker deliberately misled. I never understand why people who present these "proofs" don't see that making assumptions is distinct from stating facts. Whenever I see such assumptions being made, I ask myself: is this a fair assumption? Particularly I ask myself: did this scene have the effect on me when I watched the movie that this person is saying Moore intended it to have? The answer so far has always been "no, far from it." In the absence of that, the statement that Moore intended me to draw a conclusion that I did not in fact draw seems outlandish at the very least. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"I never understand why people who present these "proofs" don't see that making assumptions is distinct from stating facts.". And I don't see why movies making assumptions are classified as fact (you know- the distinguishing characteristic of a documentary.). Haamer.

Are you actually telling me that Michael Moore did not intend his audiences to believe that children of congressmen are less likely to serve in iraq than children of non-congressmen? Are you actually telling me that YOU watched F911 and did NOT come away with the belief that children of congressmen were less likely to fight in Iraq? If so you are the first such person I have met. I have talked to about 40 people about the film, and every one of them left the theatre believing this (and the vast majority of them voted for Kerry). I certainly left the theatre believing this.

Your claim seems so preposterous it almost has to be a troll, but I'll bite anyway. What do you think that Michael Moore was trying to communicate to his audiences when he went around Washington DC approaching Congressmen about sending their children to Iraq?--Jsolinsky 23:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What is "Documentary" film?

Webster defines it as; 1 : being or consisting of documents : contained or certified in writing <documentary evidence> 2 : of, relating to, or employing documentation in literature or art; broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE <a documentary film of the war>

Wiki defines it as; Documentary film is a broad category of cinematic expression united by the intent to remain factual or non-fictional.

During my days of filming academia the topic of truth was very easily learned through the efforts and errors of documentary work on the Kent State shootings. While news footage was edited to appear as if the Guard had fired two volleys, that misrepresentation alone was enough to cost a reporter his job. (name fails me) On the other hand; responsible reporting, documenting & transcribing on film what really happened took time, effort and patience to compile. http://may4archive.org/may4movie.shtml Now why should all the effort of producing a factual documentary- a documentary by definition- be pandered because there is an "Umbrella" term for movies that emulate this genre, yet fail to meet the reality check? Labeling Michael Moore's F911 a documentary pimps the hard work of documentary film makers and trivializes the truth we hold paramount in production. If his film qualifies as documentary- you have to change the definition of documentary. How about this one, "Documentary film- any story told in cinema with an authoritative voice accompanied by news footage."