Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

August 29

Word Category

In which classical word category (preposition, pronoun, conjunction etc.) is the word "as" in "X was very good, as defined by Y"? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.116.228 (talk) 21:35, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

What you're asking about is the part of speech of as in this sentence. The way you've worded it, it's classified as an adverb by the American Heritage Dictionary (sense 3). But I wonder how firmly should we separate this usage from the second conjunction definition, since it can be taken to mean "as it has been defined..." The problem is that as means "in the manner in which," where "in the manner" is adverbial, but "in which" introduces a subordinate clause with a conjunction. It seems to me the AHD adv. 3 definition goes too far in limiting the meaning to "in the [specified] manner"; I think I'd regard it as a conjunction in all these cases, including your sentence. (By the way, some people might take issue with as as a "preposition" in the AHD too.) Wareh 01:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In this kind of case no two grammarians would agree with each other... and there are plenty of cases like this, which makes us think over the very idea of "part of speech", defined so strictly by our high-school teachers, and supposed to pose no ambiguities.--K.C. Tang 02:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It would probably be marked as an adverb, which is usually where the hard-to-categorize words get dumped. Some prefer instead to slap it with three or four different labels; definitions of as seem to appear frequently with "adverb", "conjunction", or "preposition". For a modern linguistic analysis you might try looking in something like the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (which I don't have access to). Strad 05:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

nordic floating s

Is there an official name for that "floating s" that seems to afflict the English of Nordic folks who don't have a firm grasp of the language? "OK Freds, I've gots no times for dats". Gzuckier 16:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"Unfounded stereotype"? Spiro in My Family and Other Animals does that too, and he's not Nordic. —Angr/talk 17:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Maybe it's a more general thing with English spoken by foreigners with limited English? I still can't find anything vaguely relevant via google, searching for all kinds of things. I can't believe some linguistics PhD hasn't done a thesis on it. After all, if you can find articles on Northern cities vowel shift and Canadian raising. Gzuckier 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you even sure this really happens? I like Metalocalypse too, but I've never heard anyone actually talk like Skwisgar. Recury 13:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

My day job is transcribing medical reports. Many of our doctors are foreign-born. The worst offenders in misplacing -s are two with Vietnamese names. (I don't think we have any Scandinavians.) —Tamfang 19:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Swedish/Japanese pidgin or creoles

Hello, does anyone here know of a place to find information on any pidgins/creoles formed from Swedish and Japanese? I'd be very much interested for linguistic reasons, and mostly because those are a couple favorite languages of mine. --69.237.198.63 17:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There is Rinkeby Swedish, which is spoken today. During the 19th century, there was Yokohama Pidgin Japanese, and during the early 20th century, Japanese-based pidgins developed in Manchuria, Taiwan, Micronesia and perhaps other parts of the Japanese empire. These are no longer spoken, except occasionally by elderly people who remember them. Marco polo 18:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Are there any pidgins that arose from the contact of Swedish and Japanese? ;-) —Angr 21:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There have been rumours of Gothenburg Whorehouse Japanese and Osaka Business Swedish, but they rarely meet. Xn4 03:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

August 30

Daffynitions

Normally I understand most Daffynitions quite readily. But, despite the hints presented I'm sorry I haven't a clue about the following listed on that page. Could someone explain them please: baby; garbage. Thanks -- SGBailey 08:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The list includes different types of puns. For most examples, the pun lies in the word itself (dynamite: To take a flea out to dinner. (dine-a-mite)) With baby and garbage the pun is in the definition. Same for hula dance: Wild waist show. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. That still doesn't explain them (and I know that analysing these things stops any semblance of humour existing...).

• "Baby - a very young child" What does that have to do with "wet" and What with "newly-weds". If the answer to the latter is nine months after the honeymoon then fine but not funny. But why Wet?
• "Garbage - unwanted items being disposed of" If the unwanted items are food then they may well smell. But I don't see a direct link and have no idea what the backards is about. -- SGBailey 08:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

ok, here's my lame attempt: The newly-wed/newly-wet evokes associations such as the one you mentioned, and a baby is pretty wet when newly born. The garbage definition, "Eatables smelled backwards", refers to funny definitions such as "stressed is desserts spelled backwards", and the stench of course, as identified by you. Maybe they were lame to begin with, and, again as you already pointed out, dissecting doesn't make them less lame. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks -- SGBailey 09:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much that it's wet when it's newly-born, but, as any parent would confirm, you change their nappy (diaper) for the twentieth time today, and a second later it's wet again (or worse) - ie. newly wet. -- JackofOz 01:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Another one. Why would oboe be an English tramp? Surely French would make more sense? Skittle 20:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Because in various English dialects such as Cockney, they tend to drop the "h" at the start of words like house, here, hobo, and, of course, "'allo, 'allo, 'allo, what's all this then?". -- JackofOz 01:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so a cockney tramp. I was trying to picture the standard American stereotype of an English person, but I couldn't make it fit. Thanks Jack :P Skittle 12:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Btw, I'd be interested to know what that standard American stereotype of an English person is (at least as far as you understand it). -- JackofOz 04:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I was thinking of the Hollywood 'standard' as used for villains, love interests and cold intellectuals. I forgot they also had Dick van Dyke :o Skittle 22:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Here's a tongue-in-cheek American assessment of the English, from an article called "Foreigners Around the World", by P. J. O'Rourke, that I kept from a copy of National Lampoon magazine from the mid-70s. It's extremely un-PC nowadays, but it still makes me smile:

• Cold-blooded queers with nasty complexions and terrible teeth who once conquered half the world but still haven't figured out central heating. They warm their beers and chill their baths and boil all their food, including bread. An intensely snobbish group, but who exactly they are snubbing is an international mystery. Lately they've been getting their comeuppance world power-wise, as their shabby, antiquated and bankrupt little back alley of a country slowly winds down like the ill-crafted clockwork playthings of which their undersized children are so fond. In fact, last year their entire government had to kiss the ass of the fat aboriginal nig-nog who runs Uganda to retrieve a single flit hack writer from the clutches of that august nation. They all have large collections of something useless like lamp finials or toad eggs, and they would have lost both world wars if it weren't for us. They like to be spanked with canes and that's just what they deserve.". (The section about the Australians is pretty damning too). :) -- JackofOz 06:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A for orses, B for lamb ... —Tamfang 19:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Or A for horses, if you're assuming a hypercorrection :) Skittle 22:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

D HARTE BOI!

What is this charming fellow getting at? What does "D HARTE BOI!" mean?? What language is it? I sure hope it isn't rude! Capuchin 10:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be a Denglisch use of the gay slang term boi. Or maybe the author is ignorant of the gay slang but knows the word "boy" from English-language pop music. In this context, "hart" is likely to mean something like English "rough" or "tough". In other words, something like "the rough boi". Maybe this is the author's nickname for himself. Marco polo 13:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

After you saying that it might be gay slang, It's occured to me that he might be another one of those rowdy friends of homosexuals, wishing to proclaim how much D "hearts" boys. Cute. Capuchin 14:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to see how "HARTE" could be a verb meaning "to heart". "Hart" is the Dutch spelling of English "heart", but, assuming that the writer has invented a Dutch verb "harten" (meaning "to heart"), the 3rd person singular form of that verb would "hart", not "harte". This is why I think it is more likely to be an inflected form of the German adjective "hart" (meaning "hard, rough, or tough"). Marco polo 16:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It could also be a fanciful spelling of "The Hardy Boy". —Angr 16:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Marco, my hypothesis rests on the assumption that the person is not familiar with english but trying his very best. Capuchin 07:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"To be lame" meaning

What does the expression "to be lame" (apart from lacking one leg) mean in English? People use it as implying low quality or something similar, but I don't get the exact meaning. --Taraborn 11:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Weak and ineffectual; unsatisfactory", "lacking needful or desirable substance" or "not being in the know", "(especially of an excuse or argument) weak and unsatisfactory". The first time I used it in the thread above, I was referring to my unsatisfactory and likely ineffectual attempt at explaining a pun, which, as I suggested further down, might have been lame in the first place. A lame joke or a lame pun is a joke that is ineffectual; though it might elicit a groan, it won't make you laugh, even if you fully understand it. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The literal meaning of lame applied to a body part is: being non-functional, and applied to a person: having some lame body part(s) – especially the legs, and thus being incapable of normal locomotion. There is no specific connotation of the afflicted body parts having gone missing.  --Lambiam 15:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much to both. I thought that it meant both lacking a leg or having a non-functional one because in Spanish the word "cojo" means both and people use the same word for those who lack a leg and those who have a non-functional one. --Taraborn 16:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much a non-functional leg as a poorly functioning one. For example, if you had an injury that kept your knee stiff, you would be lame. Similarly with jokes. You can tell what the joke is trying to do, and it might be just a little funny, but not really funny. --Anonymous, 22:45 UTC, August 30, 2007.

Also it can be used for animals,particularly the horse.hotclaws 11:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

More of a youth slang meaning of the word is "uncool" as in "dude, that game is sooooo lame". StuRat 23:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to you two. By the way, I think you Anonymous should register, you've been here for a while now :) --Taraborn 11:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Translations

I need translations of the following words:-

• Paper Presentation
• Education status of...(a country)
• Globalisation
• Developing...(a country)
• Reservations(social/economical/religious/caste based)
• Celebrity-...(a question)
• Agriculture
• Risk/ management
• Political chaos in...(a country)
• (a city)-A hub for bomb-blast/terrorist/extremism
• Nuclear deal
• Current issues/General topics

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.98.179 (talk) 13:16, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Are we meant to be able to guess the language that you want them translated into? Since this is the languages desk on the English wikipedia, I would presume you want them translated into English, but they already seem to be in English. Am I missing something here? Capuchin 13:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Going by the IP, the OP is in India, which gives us a few hundred possibilities... Algebraist 19:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I added bullets for legibility. —Tamfang 19:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Since it's not specified, I can only assume it needs to be translated into faux-Swedish ([1]). Bork bork bork!

• Peper Presenteshun
• Idooceshun stetoos ooff...(a cuoontry)
• Glubeleeseshun
• Defelupeeng...(a cuoontry)
• Reserfeshuns(suceeel/icunumeecel/releegiuoos/ceste-a besed)
• Celebreety-...(a qooesshun)
• Egreecooltoore-a
• Reesk/ munegement
• Puleeticel cheus in...(a cuoontry)
• (a ceety)-A hoob fur bumb-blest/terrureest/ixtremeesm
• Noocleer deel
• Coorrent issooes/Generel tupeecs

SaveThePoint 21:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

torinese/torinesi

In the Wikipedia article "breadstick," the breadstick grissino torinese appears grissino torinesi. Is this an error, or are both the singular and plural forms used? 69.201.141.45 16:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

It looks to me like an error, as the plural would be grissini torinesi. Marco polo 18:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

To pluralize only the last element of a foreign phrase is a not uncommon error. (Is the magazine Femme Fatales still going?) —Tamfang 19:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

"Internet"

My spell-checkers insist that the word Internet be capitalized. Who decided that the word warranted being capitalized? 69.201.141.45 17:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

It's a proper noun. There's only one of it (despite what GWB might think). --Nricardo 18:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This varies according to the style books of individual publishers and publications. In the past, there has been a tendency to capitalize "internet", as if it were a name. However, there has been a trend in recent years (still a minority trend) to lower-case it. This makes more sense to me personally, because I see the internet as a medium or technology like television or "the press". Also, the names of unique referents are not necessarily proper nouns. For example, "sun" is usually lower-case, as is something like "world trade" or, for that matter, "cyberspace". Proper nouns, in my view, should be reserved for the names of persons or of entities with a distinct and singular, recognizable identity. The internet is neither, in my view. However, you should conform to your publisher's style guide. Marco polo 18:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In a context like "the last rays of the sun" lower case is more common, but in a context like "the planets revolve around the Sun", where the Sun is viewed as a physical object rather than a light source, upper case is more common. In general, the rule "there's only one" does not work; conventionally we have the upper-case North Pole and the lower-case equator. But historically and conventionally it has been "Internet" when referring to the Internet, and that is what most style guides recommend. Some people argue that it "should" be "internet", but I do not buy such arguments for the a priori reason that right or wrong is a matter of somewhat arbitrary convention in such cases, not of logical argument. See also Internet capitalization conventions.  --Lambiam 21:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Confusion arises with blurring of the distinction between "the Internet" and "an internet". The latter is a network which interconnects a group of devices; the former being an example of this. The rules used to transmit information between such devices are "the internet protocol", or IP. Bazza 11:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've always thought it should be lower case, too. The argument that "there's only one" to me would only work if "there could only ever be one". However, I see no reason why China can't create their own internet, if they give up on censoring the current version. Similarly, when there was only one passenger pigeon left, there was no reason to then call it "the Passenger Pigeon". StuRat 23:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

To clarify (not entirely sure about the details - I'm no expert): A network connects different computers, such as in an intranet (eg in an office). For this one can have different protocols (languages). To connect networks that use different protocols, one needs another protocol, a lingua franca, that allows them to each other. There can be several such internet protocols, but one of them, IP (the Internet Protocol - therefore capitalised?), has become the worldwide standard (largely because it is free). This is what is called the Internet (capitalised). Of course, one can also distinguishing it from the other internets (or rather internet protocols) by the fact that it is called the Internet, so that is no reason to capitalise it. Still, I usually do. Funny, btw, my spell checker marks the plural 'internets' as wrong. I disagree. Then again, it also marks my English English as wrong, so it's a crappy spell checker. :) DirkvdM 18:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

An interesting comparison is the White House. There are many white houses, but there is only one White House. If you don't count Casablanca, that is. :) DirkvdM 18:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

A more relevant comparison would be the telephone, which used to be the Telephone. --Kjoonlee 19:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That's odd. Did people use the word 'Telephone' for the connections in stead of the device one has at home? Or rather the whole international system of connections, even before they were interconnected? Because that's the reason for capitalising 'Internet' - there is (and can be) only one of it. Doesn't sound likely that people viewed the telephone system like that, so there must be a different reason then. DirkvdM 06:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, when telephones started getting installed, they weren't interconnected. For a glimpse into the early history of the telephone, The Hacker Crackdown might be helpful. (It doesn't mention anything about capitalization, though.) --Kjoonlee 07:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The space between

When the "o" of Santo is dropped as in Sant' Angelo and Sant' Ambrogio, I find some writers place a space after the apostrophe and others don't. Is one form older? 69.201.141.45 18:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Without a space is standard and has been in use for a long time (1715 example), though typography is never perfectly consistent (both ways on this 1768 page, compare A, B, C, D). Both usages have a pretty good pedigree; here are three 16th century books that all seem never to use a space, so that has my vote for older & better practice: 1, 2, 3 (let me know if you find an exception). It may help to think about the list of words that elide in Italian. Most are little function words like di, la, ci, ne. I'm sure these would look odd to you if given a space after elision. There are relatively few more significant words (santo, come, senza) that elide. Thus, in my opinion (though I'm not sure whether you're asking because you're looking for a policy to follow yourself) one should probably at least be consistent. Wareh 18:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.69.201.141.45 15:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Puzzle

I want to see if peoples brains here work well with logic as well as facts and resource.

ABCDEFG HIJKLMNO PQRSTUVWXYZ

Rearrange these to make a 5 letter word, using all the letters, or perhaps those singled out, you decide. I`m such a git. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.178.100 (talk) 19:24, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

I won't post the answer to spoil it for others - but it's not exactly a new puzzle ;) Worm ^{(t | c)} 19:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

All I can think of is that the middle section, H to O, sounds like H2O, which is water. Is that it? Trouble is, why the word 'rearrange'? Xn4 20:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It certainly looks like a mucked-up version of that puzzle. 86.144.144.222 20:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I give up - please give the answer213.249.232.202 06:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Haha, after a little bit of thinking I got it. Remember, ambiguity is a neat trick for puzzles! -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 11:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hint 0: The puzzle is not formulated very well. It should have been something like: "ABCDEFG HIJKLMNO PQRSTUVWXYZ: which five-letter word is hiding in here?". Hint 1: the (presumed!) solution of this puzzle is a five-letter word occurring in the above responses. Hint 2: it is not any of spoil, think, which, and looks.  --Lambiam 11:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Still screwed, more clues please.87.102.88.202 13:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I found this. But don't click it if you don't want a spoiler and answer.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's not worded very well, as the original says to make a five letter word using all the letters (i.e. 26), which would be impossible even if 21 of them were silent.--Manga 16:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

My answer: "these" -> "sheet". Clarityfiend 22:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

That is the exact same thing that I thought of. The phrasing of "Rearrange these..." made me think the alphabet was just a diversion.-Andrew c ^[talk] 23:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the key phrase is or perhaps those singled out, which are H to O. But if the wet solution is the intended one, Rearrange is definitely misleading.  --Lambiam 08:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Clarity, that's what I got as well. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 09:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually having read the spoiler above I came up with "A to Z" which can be a "guide" or "atlas"?87.102.87.15 11:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Possible, but I would have guessed the most logical answer to be "H to O", i.e, water, given the purposeful spacing of the letters. A pretty naff puzzle if you ask me, given the wild array of possibilities (or maybe it was just the original phrasing of it). In my mind you should KNOW when you've just cracked a puzzle. --Micheals 11:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The word exercise

I need the word "exercise" translated into the following languages-French, Spanish, German, Italian, Hebrew, Japanese, Chinese, Kenyan, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.28.218 (talk) 22:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This is (I suspect) going to depend on what exercise you mean: there's a big difference between jogging once a day and doing a homework exercise or exercising an option. Assuming you mean physical exercise, and given that I speak only English, the interwikis from our article point to de:Training (Sport) for German, and es:Ejercicio físico for Spanish. Algebraist 23:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't use Training for sport in general in German. I'd use Bewegung or Sport itself. —Angr 04:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no "Kenyan" language. Perhaps you mean Swahili? -Elmer Clark 04:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Physical exercise is "undoo" (or "undou", depending on your romanization of 運動), with "to do exercise" as "undou o shimasu", in Japanese. And no, it's not pronounced "undo" like the Ctrl-Z function but "uun-doe"! -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 11:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We still have no disambiguation. We don't even know whether this is a noun or a verb. Unless the questioner supplies more information, ideally a full sentence containing the word "exercise" in the intended context and meaning, these responses are possibly pointless.  --Lambiam 11:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

August 31

Hello Africa, tell me how you doing?

It appears to me that this is a fairly well known phrase. However I seem to be out of luck when it comes to sorting out the origins of the phrase. Any ideas? --GSchjetne 12:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard it. It's not even grammatical English. - Paul D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.29.16.127 (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's just lyrics from the title track on this album. Never heard it before, but that's what Google says. Recury 13:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I remember a song from the 90s (early?) which went 'Hello Nigeria, tell me how you doing' Which came first? Drmaik 05:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the title of a book; 'Hello Africa, Tell Me How Are You Doing?' Sub-titled: 'A Noble Continent in Painful Renaissance' by Ghanian author, journalist and UN correspondent Osei G Kofi. Published by One World Books (South Africa) ISBN 0-620-35534-4 "This is a book on Africa that tells it like it is."

German to English

I have some postcards wrote in German and I need help to translate them to english —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.60.119 (talk) 17:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If you post them here then someone can translate them. Strad 18:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Language identification (Russian or Latin?)

Howdy! I'm in the middle of knocking up an article on Diageo's latest Smirnoff advertising campaign. The television/cinema commercial uses an original song created by Peter Raeburn, but the online sources seem to disagree over whether the lyrics are in Russian or Latin. Since I've no knowledge of either, I figured I'd come here for a quick judgement on which of the two it is, or whether it's a third or even completely fictitious language. I figure Russian is the more likely of the two, given the advert is promoting vodka, but it never hurts to double check :)

The spot can be seen here, among many other places. I'm not looking for a full translation (though it might be interesting just for curiosity's sake), just an identification. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

not Russian. Possibly Latin, although I can't catch any words. dab (𒁳) 20:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like Latin to me too. I think I can hear some words like purus and mare that make sense in the context. —Keenan Pepper 02:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Ta muchly :) Apropos of nothing, the tiny lo-fi versions around the internet really don't do that advert justice. It's spectacular at the cinema. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

And you can now find the article at Sea (Smirnoff advert). It should be appearing on Did you know in a few days. Thanks again for the hand! GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 17:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

My guess: it's nonsense. Doesn't strike me as Latin; chance resemblance of a few words is to be expected. The rhythm sounds to me somehow Scandinavian. —Tamfang 10:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a side comment: Isn't it fascinating how adverts have become the (or at least a) focus of attention. They're even making programs about the making of adverts. Adverts used to be the things that conveyed information about other things they want you to buy, they were never the thing itself. But I guess it's par for the course. Journalists now regularly report on the doings of other journalists, rather than on the other news they're all supposed to be telling us about. What's this phenomenon called, when the medium becomes the message itself? Marshall McLuhan was right. -- JackofOz 13:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, getting people to point out good adverts, comment on what worked, and celebrate what does helps encourage more good adverts in the future, which can only be good! As an aside, I only posted the article up just over 24 hours ago, and it's already the first hit on Google for Sea + Smirnoff, and in the top ten for the generic Smirnoff + advert. Amazing how fast Google'll respond. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 21:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really that new a thing. How Do They Do That? often used to look into the makings of adverts, and that must have been at least a decade ago. Skittle 23:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Russian Song

Can anyone translate the name of the song 'Полюшка Поле'? Plus, does anyone know who it's by? Cheers!--Manga 23:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia article: Polyushko Pole. Alternative Russian-English edition. Wareh 02:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

September 1

Translation of comment required

שלום

שלום קוראים לי מתן ואני מישראל, אני מזמין אותך לבוא למדינה שלי, תתרגם את זה גם עם מיליון בבילונים מצחיקים. המדינה שלי היא הכי הכי הכי יפה בעולם כולו, וזה לא משנה מה שאומרים לך. תבוא יהיה סבבה אצלנו, באמת. יאללה אוהב אותכם כולכולכם שבוע טוב ומבורך!!!!ישראלי כוסון 23:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC) [1]

Please leave the translation on my talk page as well please Y4kk 00:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Hello. They call me Matan and I'm from Israel. I'm inviting you to come to my country. You will translate this with a dictionary with a milion funny Babylons (ie, the translation software). My country is the most most most beautiful in the whole world, though this does not change that they tell you. Come, it'll be awesome here with us, really. C'mon, I love you guys, all all of you, have a good and blessed week!!! ". It's then signed "Israeli Hunk". I have a feeling this is spam... Macnas 16:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, misread a portion. Corrected translation above. Macnas 12:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Buffalo Stance

What is a buffalo stance? Seems to be some idiomatic expression, though it's not in any of my dictionaries. --84.191.213.113 15:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's a New York Times article T Style Magazine article from last March, that explains the word borrowing in Neneh Cherry's own words. It's an allusion to Ray Petri's fashion company "Buffalo", named after Air Force Ma-1 jackets worn by Guadeloupian bouncers or private security guards with "Buffalo" written on them, and also a reference to Buffalo Soldier. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Swiss German Expression?

I grew up in a small southern town that had been settled by Swiss-Germans (Orangeburg, SC). The earliest town-records, The Giesendaner (spelling?) Records were kept by a Swiss protestant preacher. At play, the boys (circa 1953) would exclaim "geh-hey man" when excited by a race or action on the movie-screen. This quickly disappeared as television made inroads and we went to school. I doubt if any of my classmates would recall the expression. Although my grandfather was a well-educated M.D., he had built his huge house in a white working-class neighborhood. This is where I mostly heard it. Do the Swiss Germans have such an expression? The "geh-heh" does sound like a form of gehen.69.201.141.45 16:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

The Giezendanners originated from the Toggenburg (most Swiss emigrants to the Americas came from rural areas), but I cannot figure out what "geh-hey man" could mean in Toggenburger dialect, or any other Swiss German dialect for that matter. "Gang hei", pronounced something like "gong hi" would mean "go home!", in some dialects it would be pronounced "gong hay". But "geh!" as an imperative of "gehen" isn't used in any Swiss dialect, as far as I can think. Puzzled and stumped, sorry. (The article on Orangeburg, South Carolina says a colony of Swiss, German and Dutch immigrants was formed in 1735. So I guess we'd need to consider older German and Dutch dialects as well.) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I've come across "geh hei!" for gehe Heim! (go home!) Xn4 00:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, omitting the e and saying geh heim is standard German, and the pronunciation of geh heim man is indistinguishable from geh hei man.  --Lambiam 07:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I sent an email to a contemporary of mine that still lives in Orangeburg, asking if he remembered the expression. He remembers it quite well.69.201.141.45 17:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Thank you for reporting back with this re-confirmation (seriously, many don't). "Geh hei(m), Mann!" or possibly "Geh hei(m)", man! (the last word in English) looks most likely now. "Go home!" is certainly an exclamation where I live. "Geheimmann" ("secret man") makes no obvious sense, and I can't come up with anything else. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

consultation on stress on word Chinese

My intuition tells me that the word in English Chinese has all mathematically possible stress patterns available depending on perhaps dialect and style, ,although I think (a) may be rare and perhaps (d) nonexistent. Anyone with deeper knowledge of phonetics wanna contribute before I tell my students about this?

(a), stress on the penult, (b) stress on both with primary on the penult, (c) stress on both with stress on the ult, and (d) stress on the ult:

(a) [ˡtʃaɪ niz] (b) [ˡtʃaɪ ˌniz] (c) [ˌtʃaɪ ˡniz] (d) [tʃaɪ ˡniz] mnewmanqc 21:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

If it means anything, both Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com [2] approve of (d), and they also include the pronunciation [tʃaɪ ˡnis].--El aprendelenguas 03:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is meaningful to assign secondary stress in a stand-alone two-syllable word. I'd say that (d) is the standard stress pattern, while many multi-syllabic words will occasionally be realized with a stress pattern other than the standard one; I don't think the word Chinese is particularly special in this respect. Among the mathematically possible patterns you omitted [ˡtʃaɪ ˡniz] and [tʃaɪ niz].  --Lambiam 07:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

In a sentence like "He's Chinese", the second syllable of the word will certainly normally receive greater stress, but in a sentence like "This is a Chinese box", the first syllable of the word will often have greater stress, due to certain phenomena when English words come together in a sentece. AnonMoos 12:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting observation AnonMoos, mind if I steal it for my class? Maybe we can come up with an explanation. It does not happen with Japanese or at least it's not required in the He's Japanese or Vietamese or even Siamese, although that can be said with one syllable. Curious.

That said, in response to Lambian, yes absolutely right. I should never have said mathematical possibilities. I should have said phonologically realistic possibilities. As for the isolated versus words in context, in the initial presentation of the material to students, I'm kind of stuck with presenting stand alone words. You can't hit'em over the head with all the complexity of phrasal stress. Still, Let me set out the question slightly more carefully because it is still a valid one, although I think after reading it you will see why I wanted to avoid it. mnewmanqc 02:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

What I'm calling primary stress is the same as (potential) tonic accent. (which should have its own Wikipedia entry; good extra credit assignment for one of my students????). Tonic accent was used I think by Peter Ladefoged to refer to the most prominent syllable in a tone unit, which is normally a string of words such as for example, an independent clause. There is only one tonic accent allowed in such a string by definition. So that's an axiom here. Now, when we say a word on its own, we are by definition creating a tone unit. In a multisyllable word that means that one syllable will have the tonic accent. That syllable has to be a stressed syllable. In many cases of two syllable words there is only one stressed syllable, so there is no problem in determining which has the tonic accent. In a few words, like many compounds and words like phoneme, crayon, and acorn, there are two stressed syllables. If words like these are spoken in isolation and so form their own tone unit, then one of the two stressed syllables will be the tonic accent and the other just plain stressed. In the three words above, that will invariably be the first syllable. A word like supreme also has two stressed syllables (for many though not all speakers), and for this word, the final syllable will get the tonic accent assuming the word is assigned the tonic accent such as when it is spoken in isolation. Now, here comes the point: If any of these words are placed into a sentence and the tonic stress is placed outside supreme, then the two stressed syllables will be more or less treated indistinctly. This would be the case in a phrase like the supreme comMANder where the tonic accent falls on commander. I used the term "primary stress" basically to avoid this entire intricate technical discussion. However, as Lambiam noticed that the simple explanation was, while simple and intuitive, not necesarily accurate, and well, I had to enter into these technicalities to show I did know what I was talking about.

That said, are there other words that function like Chinese does with such wide variation in what is the primary stress (i.e., ability to carry the tonic accent)?

September 2

word-to-morpheme ratio

okay, so if a language has a word-to-morpheme ratio of, like, 1-10 its polysynthetic. 1-5 is synthetic. 1-1 is analytical. (the ratios are hypothetical) anyway my question is could there (in theory) be a language with a word-to-morpheme ratio of 2-1? Is there a linguistic definition of word? Idon'texist 02:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Our Word article gives the following definition:

A word is a unit of language that carries meaning and consists of one or more morphemes which are linked more or less tightly together, and has a phonetical value.

(my emphasis) According to this definition, the word-to-morpheme ratio is at most 1 to 1.  --Lambiam 07:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes multi-word idoms of unpredictable meaning ("kick the bucket" etc.) are considered to be single lexemes -- but not single morphemes. AnonMoos 2 September 2007 (UTC)

There are different kinds of words, though. I can't imagine a lexical word consisting of less than a morpheme, but a phonological word might. Sometimes you encounter monomorphemic words (often proper nouns) that behave phonologically as if they were compounds (which they often are etymologically but not synchronically); these are called pseudocompounds. I can't think of an example off the top of my head now, but there are certain consonant clusters that can only occur at the edges of phonological words; if you have a pseudocompound with such a cluster in the middle of it, then a case could be made that you have a single morpheme spread across two phonological words. However, it will still be a single lexical word. —Angr 13:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW, 1-1 can still be synthetic, e.g. Dinka which has primarily monosyllables for words, but which still manages to mark plural, case, and 2 different construct states with that one syllable, using 3 vowel lengths, breathiness and tone. It would a little challenging to learn, methinks. Drmaik 05:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

so the concensus is "no. its not possible." sorry i didn't check out the "word" article. i think i'll blame that on the paint fumes. Idon'texist 01:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Help contacting a person whose web site is in Chinese

I'm trying to fix a device and I have found the instructions to fix it in on a chinese page. After using a free web translation service, I managed to follow the instructions, although I would like to ask the author where I can get a firmware that I could use. Doing further search, I believe he is the icam forum user on this page, but I do not know how to navigate through that page, since it is in Chinese, to send him a private message or send him an email. Can anyone help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fistanes (talk • contribs) 09:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The forum post say that the firmware is pretty much generic (heck, even I own one of those... stupid mass-produced crap), and that someone had flashed it with another brand's firmware and it works. I don't know what's your brand but the one that's mentioned can be downloaded here. --antilived^{T | C | G} 22:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

"bildungsromane"

Is it plural of 'bildungsroman'? What is 'bildungsdee'? What is 'bildungsheld'? -- aruna —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.94.6 (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, a bildungsroman is "a novel of personal development", so bildungsromane would be the genre as a whole. See Wiki:Bildungsroman. Never heard of bildungsdee, or variations thereof, but "bildungsheld" is the hero/protagonist of the bildungsroman. --Micheals 12:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a word Bildungsidee, though I can't find a definition of it. Strad 21:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, 'romane' is the pl. of 'roman'. You probably mean 'bildungsidee'. The German word 'idee' means 'idea' Classicalclarinet 05:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If you use the German plural (instead of bildungsromans), I feel you should also follow the German convention of capitalizing the first letter of nouns – something I'd do anyway with an unfamiliar word like Bildungsheld, not commonly listed in English dictionaries.  --Lambiam 07:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Gemini by Michel Tournier

i would like to know the significance of the Zen garden in the nove. also, what is the connection between the weather and twins?210.211.218.32 12:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

On the second part of your question, Salman Rushdie said of Gemini: "In addition to playing with such traditional oppositions as heterosexuality and homosexuality, city and countryside, heaven and hell, Tournier elaborates ingeniously on the profound opposition of chronology and meteorology — the fixed, regulated march of the hours on the one hand, and the wild, unpredictable fluctuation of the seasons on the other." Xn4 18:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

ISO 639

Is there no ISO code for Basic English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonjaaa (talk • contribs) 12:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

If there is, it's going to be hyphenated ("En-basic", or whatever), not a completely different code. AnonMoos 12:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not a real language. --Nricardo 16:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is. It adheres to a specific grammar and set of vocabulary that differs greatly from standard English. It's definitely a different language.--Sonjaaa 21:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, real professional linguists have never really been excessively impressed with Basic English, since it appears to be English simplified by means of an arbitrary restriction on vocabulary, but not meaningfully simplified in other respects, and vocabulary is only one part of learning a language (not always the greatest difficulty). In any case, what comes after the hyphen is fairly free-form (see IETF language tag), so I don't know of anything that would prevent you from using "en-basic"... AnonMoos 03:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

there is a single code covering all constructed languages: "art". dab (𒁳) 18:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Basic English is not a constructed language. It's an version of a natural one. I'd say that using that code for Basic English sort of defeats the purpose of a code at all. SaveThePoint 21:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I consider Basic English a constructed language, and so does our article. An appropriate language tag would then be art-basicenglish.  --Lambiam 07:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

French Numbers

My mother-in-law purchased my son a play-remote. When you press the numbers, it says what number you pressed. You can listen in English, Spanish and French. When in French, it says (I don't know the proper spelling) "Un, Deux, Trois, Quatre, Fuck". I though 5 was Cinq. Is there some pronunciation of 5 in French that sounds nearly identical to "Fuck" or should I have her return the remote for an untainted one? -- Kainaw^(what?) 23:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

No, no there isn't a pronunciation of "cinq" that sounds anything remotely like "fuck." (There is one word in French that does sound like fuck, but five isn't it.) I'd be taking that one back to the store. - Eron ^Talk 01:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The quality of the remote has probably been breeched. It is possible that the quality of the speaker on the remote has cut out the high frequency energy in the sound. That would confuse the [s]/[f] between cinq and fuck. It might also be easy to miss the nasalised [a], leaving you with a nasty sounding English word. Conclusion: it's probably not a deliberate attempt to corrupt your child, but it's a poorly constructed toy. Get your money back. MWL130.56.65.24 01:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't stop laughing, I'll buy it off of you, how much do you want for it? Capuchin 09:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Does it have French letters as well as French numbers? :) DuncanHill 09:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

What does it say when you press '69'? DirkvdM 10:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This has happened before. http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149191336363 69.201.141.45 12:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Since I only had 1 year of high-school French (and all I learned was "Je ne parle pas Francais"), I wasn't sure if it was me or the toy. I'm going to tell her to take it back and see if any of the other remotes are closer to saying "cinq". If she wants to sell it, I'll have her drop a note on your talk page, Capuchin. -- Kainaw^(what?) 19:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Three French cats went out in a boat. The boat turned over and un, deux, trois cats sank. —Angr 19:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

September 3

T-V distinction in Kannada

I'd like to know if Kannada has a T-V distinction like some other Dravidian languages. The T-V article lists Tamil and Telugu examples but fails to mention Kannada. Thanks for any information on this. - 203.76.137.3 11:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

My friend in Bangalore says yes. —Tamfang 20:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

September 4

Word

What is a word that starts with the sound "ari" and means something insulting? --124.254.77.148 03:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I've heard the word Arainst before? Perhaps you could check online somewhere like an Online Dictionary. ::Manors:: 03:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Is that 'Arianist'? Xn4 05:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Arriviste"? ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bielle (talk • contribs) 03:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Aristotelian? And no doubt 'aristocrat!' would have sounded pretty insulting coming from a Jacobin or a Bolshevik. Xn4 04:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

What words do you not capitalize in a header?

When writing a header or making reference to a title of a play or book or what have you, what is the list of words that do not start with a capital letter? E.G. 'How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days' - "to" "a" and "in" do not get capitalized. But what about something like 'Make the Most of it' - should the "it" be capitalized as it is the final word? Should the "Most" be capitalized or not?

Thanks! Joshua —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.140.75.133 (talk) 05:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation (9th Edition) says "Do not capitalize little words within titles such as a, an, the, but, as, if, and, or, nor, or prepositions, regardless of their length". See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). Xn4 05:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, generally you capitalize everything except for "little words" as listed above. Which words are "little" and which aren't can vary by publication. Pronouns (like your "it") and forms of the verb "to be" (like "is," "are," etc.) are examples of little words that are often capitalized. --Cam 05:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Use of "None"

I understand that the correct use of the word "none" is supposed to be akin to "not one", such as "there is none that has collected any items" as opposed to the non-standard use of "there are none that have collected any items". By this, I mean that "none" is used in the same way as a singular item. This is a very common mistake in usage of the English language, as people don't think of it in terms of a singular, curiously, and instead as a plural.

My question is this: is there an article on Wikipedia that articulates this? I've been working with the creators of the article "List of commonly misused English language phrases" and believe it could potentially be listed there, but was wondering if anybody could shed light on a couple of things: where I can find a third party source or reference that would confirm or support this statement? Secondly, could anybody make any suggestions as to how this could be worded for an example (as you can see, my example there blows). linca^linca 07:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Since a language is defined by the people who speak it, and most English speakers will freely use 'none' in both singular and plural senses, I don't really believe it to be a 'misuse', since hardly anyone will notice such an error if it were used. Capuchin 07:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, the belief that "none should be singular, being the contraction of no+one" could be put on the List of Linguistic Urban Legends in English (if there were such a list). The OED says quite bluntly: "Many commentators state that none should take singular concord, but this has generally been less common than plural concord, especially between the 17th and 19th centuries."--K.C. Tang 09:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Speaking English

Bit of a random question for all you linguists out there, which I was pondering after recently having read Ivanhoe for the first time. I've had a look at History of the English Language which, while an interesting piece, didn't totally contain the answer I seek. Namely, I was wondering this: if a hypothetical time traveller from a modern English-speaking country were to go back in time through the history of England, whereabouts would be the furthest back they could go and still be able to have a reasonable conversation with someone, where each could just about be understood by the other? 1300s? 1400s? Later, earlier? Angmering 08:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest any time before the Great Vowel Shift would be very difficult for modern English speakers, but, as I'm sure you've realised, it very much depends on the region and experience of the speaker and their location in the past.--Estrellador* 08:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

summary, precis..?

What is the name for a text that in style is a summary of another fictional work, but contains every single plot element, and all descriptions of all the things/places/people in the original work? But lacks it's dramatic structure?87.102.21.232 11:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)