Talk:Indulgence

Historical Signifigance

There is currently no section in the acticle concerning the way in which the refutation of the doctrine of indulgences started Martin Luther on the road toward the Reformation. There should be a section that deals with this. More importantly this article reads like a piece of Roman Catholic doctrine than a proper encyclopediac entry. To not mention the important controversy regarding them, and then to paint the Catholic practise as proper but give modern examples of unethical behaviour by protestant televangilists also clouds this article with political bias. Indulgences do have a historical signifigance to Western culture that extends beyond their Roman Catholic dogma. Humble Servant 20:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Besides being barely understandable to a non-catholic reader, this article has a strong church-apologist POV PermanentE 23:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well, the article's POV is seems very much as though it was coming from a member of the church. This article needs to be re-written as NPOV. 16:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.4.143.83 (talk)

Do indulgences still exist in the Roman Catholic Church

Today, indulgences does not exist in Roman Catholic Church

Is this true? I can understand why they might not be selling them anymore. But my understanding is that indulgences could still be obtained by performing ritual acts like praying to certain saints or going on pilgrimages to shrines and so forth. At least, this was the impression I got last time I spoke with the Blue Army rosary ladies, which has been a few year. Smerdis of Tlön 04:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Also, can we withhold judgment on whether Luther was correct in characterizing the marketing of indulgences as a sale of indulgences? Hasdrubal 02:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why? Your remark suggests that there isn't really a controversy to withhold judgment on, there being no difference between "marketing" and "selling". -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:13, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• The statement "Today, indulgences does (sic) not exist in Roman Catholic Church (sic)" is incorrect, both doctrinally and grammatically. Indulgences do still exist in the RCC, and they are earned (never sold) for performing various actions. (In 1567, Pope Pius V, following the Council of Trent, forbade the attachment of indulgences to any financial act, including the giving of alms.)

For example, praying the Angelus each day earns a partial indulgence.

As for whether Martin Luther was correct or not, I believe this is an issue of POV. What should be said is "Martin Luther characterized the marketing of indlugences as a sale of indulgences." If anything else, it could be said, equally NPOV, that the RCC denies this. Whether Luther was or was not correct in his assessment is a matter of opinion, not fact, and is inherrently POV, but that he made the assessment is a matter of fact and NPOV. Equally so, whether the RCC is or is not correct in believing that Luther was incorrct is a matter of opinion; that the RCC holds this position is a matter of fact. Essjay 06:25, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Indulgences do exist in the Roman Catholic Church today. The Council of Trent abolished all connections indulgences had with money, but they did not abolish indulgences themselves. The Handbook of Indulgences Norms and Grants is still authorized and published by the Catholic Book Publishing Corp. with a version copyrighted as recently as 1991. Andy120 17:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think they upgraded the spell so you have to be an 8th level cleric to cast Plenary Indulgence now. -- Rogerborg 11:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Overhaul

I've overhauled this article; I'd appreciate a review or imput on the "other Christian traditions" section, as I can only speak to the Catholic and DOC positions. Essjay 09:24, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Other Christian Traditions

The section on other Christian traditions may require some nuances. Most Protestants reject a doctrine of purgatory, but not all. C.S. Lewis is an obvious (but not lone) example. Orthodox Christians definitely reject "Purgatory" under that Latin name, but many suggest other ways that souls may be cleansed or purified after death that most Catholic theologians would consider "a distinction without a difference" (c.f. this Catholic "Cleansed After Death" article). So while it is generally safe to say that neither Protestants nor Orthodox believe in purgatory or grant indulgences, there are some similar beliefs and practices among them. Johnaugus

I can't recall anything in Lewis that suggests that he believed in Purgatory (The Great Divorce, for example, begins with an explicit disclaimer that he is *not* speculating about conditions in the afterlife, but presenting an allegory). The article on Purgatory makes a similar claim for Lewis -- any citations?

--jrcagle 23:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

C.S. Lewis's position is sketchy at best in regards to purgatory, but his belief's, as representative of protestant doctrine, is immaterial. A review of mainline Protestant churches, Anglican, Luthern, Presbyterian, United, all refute the dogma of purgatory. There is no similar belief or practise I am aware of among Protestants. Humble Servant 03:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a reference to something like Indulgences in the Pharisaic tradition. Jonathan Tweet 14:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC) -

--I would like to know the reference for the quotation from Patriarch Dositheus regarding the distribution of indulgences to the Eastern Orthodox. --Cristianispir 14:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I have now found a related reference to a similar citation alleged to be that of Dositheus: "We have the custom and ancient tradition, which is known to all, that the most holy Patriarchs would give the people of the Church a certificate for the absolution of their sins.(Sinhorohartion) in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus, Symvolai eis tin istorian tis arkhiepiskopis tou orous Sina (Towards a History of the Archbishopric of Sinan). Saint Petersburg, 1908. p. 133."--Cristianispir 14:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Confession

In another occurrance of the continual war to change Reconciliation to Confession, this page has now been hit. I've said it before, and I'm sure I will have to say it again. The Catechism says Reconciliation, the Code of Canon Law says reconciliation, JP2 said reconciliation, B16 says reconciliation, and Francis Cardinal Arinze of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments says reconciliation. It isn't called confession anymore, it is RECONCILIATION! -- Essjay · Talk 04:17, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree; The Code of Canon Law says Penance(Cann. 959 - 997), not reconciliation. Andy120 17:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe when the old/alternative term is as widely recognised as this, it would be worth mentioning it at the first use in the article - if only for the benefit of readers less well versed in contemporary terminology? Something like sacrament of reconciliation (sometimes known as confession)? Or the other way round, I suppose - I have no axe to grind. - Paul 04:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Simony

Does the concept of Simony relate to the practice of Indulgences especially during the dark ages when Indulgences were one of the main issues spawning the Reformation?

Simony (the selling of church offices) begins not in the "dark ages" -- which are generally taken to be the period between the fall of Rome and the ascendency of Charlemagne or perhaps Otto I -- but somewhat later. The practice occurred at the highest levels in the 11th century with Gregory VI; Gregory VII condemned it [1]. The Reformation is linked to simony in a way. The Archbishop of Mainz had to pay a rather large fee in return for his post, and his authorization of Tetzel to sell indulgences was a way to recoup the losses (Cameron, p. 100). Whether or not this was simony is probably debated; the fee was I believe technically a fee for the dispensation to allow the under-age Mainz to take the post.--jrcagle 00:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Bold text

Manual of Indulgences

The revised Manual of Indulgences (1999) is now out in an English version. It is excellent. The USCCB is the publisher.

Image removed

I've removed the image of an alleged indulgence by Tetzel (Image:Indulgence.png). There are serious doubts as to its authenticity. See [2] . Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

granted AFTER the sinner confesses?

There is a crucial point glossed over here. The article states that indulgences only apply to sins already confessed and forgiven, and the "Myths About Indulgences" reference specifically states that a person can't "buy forgiveness" or apply indulgences for sins yet committed; yet when Luther wrote his Theses, many people (both priests and laymen) believed that indulgences could be used that way. That was one of the primary reasons for the controversy, and also a primary reason that many people now believe indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching. This article states a specific technical definition of an indulgence without mentioning the common understanding, which was and is widely held. Shouldn't it mention the difference, so as to shed light on the controversies? User:keno 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)