Talk:Evidence and documentation for the Holocaust

Stylistic concerns

Some of the article seems to be written in a factual, but non-encyclopedic way. Wikipedia doesn't usually start a section with "Argument: foo bar". Also, "However, as is typically the case," seems to be a conversation-like, even though it is true. Andjam 04:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't be afraid to be bold in your edits. I'm kind of on the fence about the "Argument" line. I think it's useful in that it gives a short summary of the claims so that a reader that's unfamiliar with the topic can understand it better. However, it's bothersome that those argument lines are not cited. .V. _[Talk|Email] 18:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with andjam, particularly with reference to the "unreasonable burden of proof" section, I think this needs to be written in a more encyclopaedic fashion. Perhaps this section also does not meet NPOV guidelines?

Andy4226uk 13:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of criticism of Holocaust denial

We have the Holocaust article, which claims that it happened, but uniquely, does not have to defend its facts or logic. Then we have Holocaust denial and Criticism of Holocaust denial. So next I expect: Criticism of criticism of Holocaust denial. Etc. Fourtildas 05:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The Holocaust article, not quite 'uniquely', has over 100 footnotes, so your comment about not defending its facts is untrue. Holocaust denial is altogether separate, being a form of antisemitic propaganda. The typical elements of this propaganda are described in 'Criticism of Holocaust denial'. That seems to be a logical structure for the content. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 09:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

why is it antisemetic propaganda to question the holocaust myth? why is it antisemetic when it wasnt just jews who died in the holocaust. only jews have profited from the hoax. if the holocaust is so true then why is it so imflamatory to question wether or not it happaned? why are there people in jail for saying it is a hoax? doing that is like jailing someone who says that the american revolution didnt start until 1964. why should a person who makes such an absurd claim be put in jail? Keltik31 20:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest always considering the source of a Talk: page comment before bothering to respond. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Criticism of the criticism of Holocaust denial can be discussed in this article. This article isn't designed to be one-sided; the proponents of Denial/Revisionism can be represented here as well. .V. _[Talk|Email] 15:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Only if there are reliable sources making that criticism. I somehow doubt there are. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems hardly neutral to promote only one side of a debate. .V. _[Talk|Email] 18:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right. If you can find reliable sources making criticism of criticism of Holocaust denial, feel free to put it in the article. --GHcool 18:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do some searching later. Although it seems to me that many sources are considered unreliable simply because they criticize the criticism of holocaust denial... .V. _[Talk|Email] 19:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no "debate". There's the historical truth, and there's a handful of loons. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has opinions, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia must reproduce your Aunt Millie's views on the subject. WP:ATT applies here as in every Wikipedia article. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute, guys. Let's not trash the guy before he gives us something to trash. I stand by my challenge to .V. If .V. can find a reliable source that criticises criticisms of Holocaust denial, I say it should and must be included in the article. Of course, it would have to comply with WP:RS and WP:ATT and also be relevent to the overall outline of the article. So, for example, Jayjg's hypothetical Aunt Millie would not cut the mustard and neither would Wendy Campbell. But if .V. can find a quote given by Elie Wiesel, Deborah Lipstadt, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Yad Vashem, or any number of respected and established historians and philosophers specializing in the Holocaust that criticizes critics of Holocaust denial, wouldn't it be worth putting on Wikipedia? So I repeat my challenge to .V. and wish him good luck in his search. I expect that it will be fruitless, but obviously .V. is willing to accept the challenge despite the overwhelming odds of its not being met. Until the challenge is met, however, I would appreciate it if .V. would have enough sense not to respond about this topic, for nothing will convince us more than proof for his bold claims. --GHcool 21:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh? At what point do I make a claim, let alone a bold claim? .V. _[Talk|Email] 22:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was referring to .V.'s Aunt Millie. My Aunt Millie is quite notable. ;-) Jayjg ^(talk) 22:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I assume that Jayjg's Aunt Millie wouldn't criticize critics of Holocaust denial. I'm not as sure about .V.'s Aunt Millie.  ;) --GHcool 00:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

the photo of the guy with a gun to his head

i have heard that this is a faked photo because the soldier with the gun is actually wearing a soviet uniform and is not a german nor is he using a german pistol. help? Keltik31 20:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless you can cite a reliable source backing up what you heard, you're out of luck. Andjam 03:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

i'm working on it because i know its out there somewhere. Keltik31 18:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I stared at that thing for a good long time and came to the conclusion that the photo didn't have enough detail to determine any insignia on the uniform. I'm sure that someone with extensive knowledge of WWII-era uniforms would be able to determine something. .V. _[Talk|Email] 01:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I FOUND THIS ON THE TALK PAGE for the Einsatzgruppen CONCERNING THIS PHOTO.

Its sad indeed to see how misrepresented the articles on Nazi Germany are in Wikipedia, but this page bar far takes the cake. The ignorance of the author who in his almost stunning lack of knowledge of the subject matter, most of which is taken from holocaust websites and reworded, even makes the mistake of copying images from such websites of alleged Einsatzgruppen soldiers apparently executing a man. Take a close look at the picture on the main page. Those arent German uniforms and that is not a German pistol in the soldier's hand. The soldier in the image is wearing a Soviet M35 uniform and is holding a Tokerev TT33 pistol. The boy right behind the arm of the soldier wielding the pistol (he looks no more than 16-17 years old perhaps younger) is wearing a Soviet M35 airforce uniform. You can distinctly see everything the soldiers are wearing are Soviet issue, and and non corrospond to German uniforms or equipment. For all any of you know, the guy who apparently is about to be shot is a German POW. Perhaps the Soviets thought it would be funny to dress him up and then shoot him, or more likely it is just a staged event in order to send pictures home (the red army was notorious for staging photos for propaganda purposes back home) This makes sense since the bodies in the pit below appear to have been decomposing for a fair period of time and the grave does not appear fresh.

If you want further proof go to the link at the bottom and view this site that sells authentic reproductions of Soviet and other WW2 uniforms and regaelia. Check out the tunics, belts, headwear, pistols ect. They are all identical to the ones being worn by the soldier and onlookers in this misrepresented photo. Keltik31 15:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe instead of cherry picking, you could link to the Whole discussion? While it was truly a piece of Original Research to behold, the argument wasn't compelling and consensus there was that the photo was indeed genuine. Cantankrus 04:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Check out Keltik31's talk page: he's made numerous racist edits. --DrBat 17:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Because of the fear of being labeled an anti-semite, I doubt any scholar would conduct research on such matters. It's a shame original research is not popular, since he has a valid point, and I did check the uniforms and his claim is tottaly correct. It's common sense his not a german soldier. I think common sense should be allowed on wikipedia. I mean, its like putting a red circle and labeling it green, Do we need a scholar to tell us that the circle is Red just to be able to put the facts on wikipedia? No. --87.194.3.52 14:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is the link to the original Russian uniform. http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-photos16/safom35b.jpg Anyone who has eyes can see that they are russian soldiers in the picture. Please remove the picture as it is common sense and not original research. If this fails, we would have to mediate or take further actions for wikipedia to do this. It's like putting pictures up of a camel and claiming it is Ariel Sharon.

All the soldiers in the article picture have tunic pockets below the belt. The tunic in the picture you link to has no pockets below the belt. Nor do the soldiers have Sam Browne belts, whereas your picture does. In fact, they are different uniforms. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 15:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The link I put is the 1950's version of the Soviet uniform, sorry for not mentioning. Also if you look behind the main guy in the pictures, there are different types of uniform some with different markings, different colours, styles, for different ranks and different elements of the Russian military (paratroopers etc.). One thing is for sure, not many German soldiers wore that type of hat except the African corps and even that had the german eagle with the swastika circle in the middle which are not present in the photo. But it will be good to once and for all prove the identity of the soldiers in the picture by finding a credible, non biased source that will show who the uniforms belong to. --87.194.3.52 15:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not a 1950s Soviet uniform. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 01:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have realized. But I can't find an german replica neither. Thank You --87.194.3.52 02:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Images within

Why hello, my comment comes in the form of a suggestion. Much of this article takes the form of refuting Holocaust Denial, for example the photos taken at death camps, man being, pictures of documentation of the holocaust; however none of the images seem to convincing at all. For example, the detail of a photograph taken at Auschwitz is of really poor quality. If I was show that detail while not reading about Auschwitz, there would be nothing to lead me to believe that it was Auschwitz.

Now obviously I'm unregistered, and am not going to be the person who digs up these images, but I think it would go a long way to further this refutation if there were some more definitive images present. Obviously you'll still get people saying things like "Well how do you know they were Jewish? That could by anyone in that mass grave", but given that better images are out there, I think the editors of this article can do better. Thanks. 142.167.151.52 00:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that photo technology of the time wasn't that great. I'll see if I can find better photos though. .V. _[Talk|Email] 01:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm well aware, but I also know that higher quality photos exist as well as videos from that era. In addition modern photography exists of the preserved structures of the concentration camps. Thanks for taking my suggestion seriously. 142.167.138.104 04:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Inappropiate document about "execution of prisoners"

The "Report to Hitler detailing the executions of prisoners" is pretty misleading. First, the proper image is labeled "Himmler_repor.jpg" (???); then the report itself does not have anything to do with the Holocaust. As far as I could translate it with google it's about the number of killed in encounters Soviet partisans (called "Russians" but obviously partisans weren't monoethnic), not prisoniers but combatants. Could someone with good Deutch knowledge have a closer look at it?

If my suspicion is correct, putting such a document in such a sensible article is a pretty wrong argument as it could consolidate someone's suspections rather than disclaiming them. --80.70.233.14 14:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, just missed the translation of the document that was just under the photo, because I immediately clicked on the photo to see it at a higher resolution :-) It lists 363000 jews murdered in just 4 months! omg. Taking all my words back, the image is quite ok for the article. --80.70.233.14 14:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Jewish population figures

The part about "Jewish population" lists the 1949 World Almanac as giving two different figures for the world Jewish population, one around 11 million and one around 16 million. Which is right? TribeCalledQuest 19:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The 11 million estimate is the 1949 estimate. The 16 million estimate is a revised 1939 estimate that appeared in the 1949 Almanac. --4.129.81.180 02:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I made the same mistake. Perhaps somebody could reword it to make that more clear. BCapp 23:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)