Talk:Anti-fascism

Vichy regime

"They abandoned the Vichy regime and started fighting against the Germans when they saw that Philippe Pétain was totally bending over to the Nazis and had no intent to stop collaboration."

"totally bending over"... there has got to be a better phrase Sadena 14:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Article is seriously biased

This article is seriously biased. Article says "Although many moderate right-wing people are anti-racist and oppose fascism, they are not considered "antifascists" as they do not organize themselves in specific groups dedicated to the antifascist struggle."

I just finished an article about one armed antifascist organization Local Lithuanian Detachment which was not socialist but was actively resisting fascists during the WW2. Lithuanian nonsocialist self government during the ww2 successfully sabotaged Fascist mobilization.

References are biased as well. "fascism will always be an element of capitalism, especially in times of economical crisis, and destruction of fascism is impossible without destruction of capitalism"? Come on - Fascists are socialists. "To be a socialist", said Goebbels, "is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole." Sigitas 17:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The article can surely be improved, but taking part in the Resistance movements against the Nazis during WWII is not necessarily an antifascist act. As the article points out, it may be just because of patriotism. Henri d'Astier de la Vigerie, member of the Action Française far right and counterrevolutionary movement, who may have taken part in the La Cagoule terrorist fascist group, participated in the Resistance. That's a fascist fighting for his country against the German invaders. I wouldn't precisely considered him "antifascism". Antifascism is an ideology, and it has historically been associated with the socialist movement in the most broad sense of the way, and in particular with the anarchists (the social-democrats, while sharing antifascist values, like any left-wing person, are rarely considered to be "antifascists", although they may be "antiracists": but being "antiracist" is not an ideology, it doesn't ask for specific direct action; most of the communists were antifascists, although they've had some troubles with Staline's directives, when he was fighting trotskyism...) Lapaz 18:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

To cite the odd right winger in the French resistance is to miss the point. the French far right by and large sided with Vichy, thus making them be seen as collaborationists by most French people. The Resistance was preodominantly leftist orientated, with the communists forming the largest single group. For them, the resistance was defined an antifascist, meaning not only anti-German, but also anti-Vichy and anti the far right Leagues, which they had fought against in the Popular Front era before the war.

I am not impressed with this article. It should be discussing the historical importance of anti-facism and not trying to define not very important modern antifa ideology. Jdorney 21:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Opposing monument to Estonian SS legionaires

Article says: "In a broader sense of the term, anti-fascism as shared by many left-wing people also includes opposing homophobia, sexism, racism and the restriction of civil liberties" yet later article glorifies Soviet army as antifascist and attacks people who were fighting against Soviet imperialism and soviet totalitarism. Do you really think Soviets were not racist, did not restrict civil liberties or were not militarist? Sigitas 17:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Legionas I understand your strong feelings against the Soviets; however, it is difficult claiming that Soviets = fascists. That doesn't make them better, but fascism is a precise doctrinal set, communism is another. Lapaz 18:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the definition at the start of article Soviets were not antifascists, so this link on Estonian monument should go. Link to atrocities in USSR should also go as this site describes soviet -german war as antifascist, which is again incorrect according to definition that antifascism is against "racism and the restriction of civil liberties". Soviet Union was not paradise of civil liberties. If non-socialists are not regarded as antifascists despite their opposition to fascists, communists should not be regarded as antifascists as well. Sigitas 18:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

plus Soviets were allies of Nazis in 1939-1941, i.e. pro-fascists Sigitas 18:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Armia Krajowa

Armia Krajowa wasn't socialist or anarchist. I would say it would be more correct to call "antifascists" all people and movements (socialists or not) opposing fascism, this would obviously exclude fascists themselves like that guy Henri d'Astier de la Vigerie.

Anarchism

The line that says that anti-fascists are mostly anarchists is ridiculous. This is only true to any degree in Spain during the first year of the civil war. The reality is that the most active and militant anti-fascists in the 30s and 40s were communists.

This is not to say that they respected democracy inherently, or that the Soviet Union was a democracy or anything like that, but the simple answer to the question, "who opposed fascism through force of arms and politically in the 30 and 40s"? is the communists. See Germany, Spain, France Italy, Yugoslavia and elsewhere for examples.

Maybe the modern antifa groups are predominantly anarchist, though I would suspect there are many different leftists in them, but when anti-fascism was a burning question, it was the communists that were to the forefront in it.

In fact, it has been argued that anti-fascist Popular Fronts o the 30s and 40s were basically means for communist infiltration of mass political movements, but that is another argument.

Jdorney 20:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it seems a bit broad to categorise antifascists as anarchists. I think that this arises from a definitional problem. The article needs to make clearer that there is a qualitative difference between "a member of the antifascist movement" and "someone who opposes fascism". Most mainstream political groups in all Western countries are opposed to fascism, but they could not all be categorised as antifascist. In the USA and the United Kingdom (where I live), it's true that there's no clear definition of "antifascist" as opposed to "someone who doesn't support fascism", but on my visits to Spain I've encountered a political movement, popular among students and other young people, that categorises itself as "antifascist". This movement is a leftist movement (in the broad sense) and many of its members have connections to socialist or left-wing political parties. As such, the article introduction needs to spell out the fact that there are two possible definitions of the word "antifascist".

1) The broad definition: someone who is opposed to fascism. This would include all those groups, whether leftist or rightist, that were involved in anti-Nazi resistance during WWII.

2) The specific definition: a member of an antifascist movement, i.e. a movement that specifically exists to combat fascism and ultranationalism. Such movements are left-wing in character.

If no one objects, I will rewrite parts of the article to reflect this distinction. Walton monarchist89 11:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but even in the "Antifascist movement" the most important players in the 30s and 40s were communists, not anarchists. Even in modern antifa circles anarchists are probably not a majority. Btw, there is also an antifascist movement in the UK, albeit small, see Red Action, Anti-Fascist Action, Anti-Nazi League etc.

Jdorney 14:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I will modify the article to reflect this distinction (between anarchists and other leftists), and will clarify the distinction between "anti-fascist" and "an opponent of fascism". Walton monarchist89 10:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have now made these changes and hope that you're satisfied with my edits. I think I've clarified the fact that many anti-fascists are not anarchists. Walton monarchist89 10:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, good work. Jdorney 22:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Resistance movements and violence

Am I alone in thinking this section needs some serious work? Any volunteers? The information is important, but the sequencing is not right. --BobFromBrockley 15:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Major Cleanup

• I made several improvements. There was a huge amount of repetitive sentences, bad English translations, and content that was largely irrelevant to the main topic. I deleted any name on the lists that didn't have a link to a Wikipedia article, because there's no way to verify who the group or person is. I also deleted the list of books and songs, because there was only one entry in the first, and two entries in the second. Either they should be full lists, or not be included at all.Spylab 22:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)Spylab

It's much, much better now. Thanks Spylab. --BobFromBrockley 12:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Do we need all those bands?

Much as I love most of those bands, this seems like a rather long list, including some pretty obscure bands. Wouldn't it be better to make it shorter and sharper? --BobFromBrockley 16:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that the list should only include the most notable bands, meaning most famous, influential, or most involved in anti-fascist causes. Some of those bands, while having anti-fascist beliefs, don't make anti-fascism a defining factor of their band (such as having many songs against fascism, speaking out against fascism in interviews and at concerts, playing at anti-fascist festivals and having songs on anti-facist compilation albums). Some of the bands are more focussed on anarchism or another ideology, with anti-fascism just as a by-product.Spylab 23:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)Spylab

That's understandable. I do think Leftover Crack (and by extention, possibly Choking Victim) should stay on though, since they are pretty notable (at least from what I can tell, but my idea of music notability is all screwed up from listening to too much underground stuff). Anyway, the back cover of "Fuck World Trade" specifically says "Leftover Crack is an Anti-Racist, Anti-Sexist, Anti-Homophobic and Anti-Fascist organization". If we have to remove one to balance it out, I'd say get rid of Naked Aggression. Even though I love them, they probably aren't as notable as Leftover Crack. Also, UK Subs are also really notable IMO, and they do have the song "Nazi Cunts". Subhumans are also very notable (my mom has even heard of them, which shocked me). I'm not sure if they have any specifically anti-fascist songs, but there are lots of anti-fascist themes (Subvert City being a good example). Another band that might be removed is Blaggers ITA, since I don't think they're very well known. The Ungovernable Force 05:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ok. If you (or anyone else) think certain musicians on the list should be added or deleted, and have a good reason, go ahead. I just wanted to get the ball rolling. However, Blaggers ITA should stay for sure. They may not be well-known in The USA, but they were one of the most militant anti-fascist bands I can think of, in word and in action. They were involved with the group Anti-Fascist Action in Britain; band members have been in direct confrontations with neo-Nazis; they spoke out against fascists in interviews; have played benefit concerts for anti-fascist causes; and have had songs on many anti-fascist compilations. Things like that are way more relevant than just a few token lyrics against racism. That gets back to the whole definition of an anti-fascist vs someone who is just personally against racism or fascism. I don't know a lot about every single band that is, or was, on the list, so that's where a group effort comes into play. SpylabSpylab

Ok, well maybe I should check them out ;) Sounds like my kind of band. The Ungovernable Force 20:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

List is much better now. Now I'm going to start trimming the individuals! BobFromBrockley 16:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The Clash AND Leone Ginzburg!!!!

Look...I like the Clash as much as the next guy, but including him in a list of anti-Fascists that includes Leone Ginzburg is an insult to a great hero and martyr. It also makes this entire enterprise seem very, very silly...

Adam Holland 20:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean. But The Clash are listed here under "anti-fascist musicians" while Ginzburg is under "anti-fascist individuals". If you get rid of the Clash in order to honour Ginzburg et al, you'd have to get rid of whole musicians list really. BobFromBrockley 10:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The categories "individuals" and "musicians" do not provide a clear, meaningful distinction. (By the way, can't individuals be musicians?) The TRUE distinction that I want to bring to the attention of the editors of this section separates, on the one hand, those who actually devoted their lives to anti-fascism, sometimes dying for their cause, and, on the other hand, those who made anti-fascist statements at one time or another. Whether or not they are an individual, a musician, or an individual musician, is irrelevant to this question. The criteria that should apply for inclusion are: 1) how important was the person to the anti-fascist movement? 2) how important was anti-fascism to the life and work of the person? I would weigh the first question to be more important than the second. As far as whether or not to categorize the list by profession or nationality, I tend to think that the latter is of greater importance for your purposes, but that really matters less to me than the merits of those listed.

I make this suggestion not to disparage your work, but to point out that there is significant room for improvement here.

Adam Holland 22:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I completely understand Adam's point. I think there is indeed room for improvement, and I welcome other views on the musicians list. I do think, though, that music has been extremely important in the anti-fascist movement. The Clash, for example, were important in creating the anti-fascist popular culture movement that helped end the late 1970s rise of the National Front in the UK. Perhaps only a small list of bands/musicians should be given here, based on Adam's question 1 criterion (perhaps merged with list of "individuals" and maybe a seperate page can be created for a longer list of anti-fascist bands/musicians, whether or not they were quite so important to the movement? BobFromBrockley 11:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC) (And, as per Spylab above, Blaggers ITA should certainly stay! BobFromBrockley 11:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

External links

Is it just me or are the external links here a little arbitrary? At the moment we've got:

• Against unveiling monument to Nazi troops
• Remembering the Anarchist Resistance to fascism

My preference would be to get rid of all of these, maybe keep the anarchist resistance one, and find better ones. What do folks think? BobFromBrockley 10:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

As no-one replied, have deleted the links. BobFromBrockley 11:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This issue has returned, as an anonymous editor (82.131.22.143) has put in lots of external links:

   	+  	*Against unveiling monument to Nazi troops
 	+ 	*Remembering the Anarchist Resistance to fascism
 	+ 	*Anvers - Un skinhead proche du Vlaams Belang a tué
 	+ 	*Beating Fascism: Anarchist Anti-Fascism In Theory And Practice
 	+ 	*Topic Fascism/Anti-Fascism
 	+ 	*Interview from, Beating Fascism: Anarchist anti-fascism in theory and practice
 	+ 	*Archive for the 'Anti-fascism' Category
 	+ 	*‘Fascism or Revolution !’ Anarchism and Antifascism in France, 1933-39
 	+ 	*Uno Laht (photograph)
 	+ 	*Estonian anti-German resistance movement 1941-1944

Some of these are good links; others seem far too marginal to me. I propose editing it down to the following only:

• Remembering the Anarchist Resistance to fascism
• Beating Fascism: A Discussion
• ‘Fascism or Revolution !’ Anarchism and Antifascism in France, 1933-39

I'm deleting the link to a blog, the link to a picture and the link to a wikipedia mirror site now, and leaving the rest in case people think I'm being hasty. And I am removing the link to the AK book, but putting this in under references. BobFromBrockley 11:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the contribution by BobFromBrockley above (See history) Because the links that were in this section are now blocked by a Wikipedia spam filter. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Inserted/removed chunk

The following paragraphs were added by an editor, then removed by another for bad English, lack of citations, etc. Thought it would be worth putting here to see if any editors think any of this is usable after editing:

- Thus, antifascism as a distinct theory and practice is historically limited to the socialist movement, although with the emergence of new, alternative political movements (the Greens being only one of them), the antifascism tradition of the socialist movement may expands itself to other left-wing people. Although many moderate right-wing people are anti-racist and oppose fascism, they are not considered "antifascists" as they do not organize themselves in specific groups dedicated to the antifascist struggle.

- - While violent or militant anti-fascism does occur, the movement may also be non-violent; being an anti-fascist is not necessarily to "fight" fascism with violence, although violence did play an important role in the 1920s and the 1930s, when antifascists were confronted to aggressive far right leagues, such as the Action Française royalist movement in France, which dominated the Quartier latin students' neighborhood (although royalist, the Action Française counted members such as Georges Valois who would later found the Faisceau fascist movement, created on the model of the Italian Fascio). In Italy in the 1920s, antifascists had to struggle against the violent squadristi, while in Germany they were confronted to the Freikorps. The squadristi broke the general strikes using violence, and the only way for the workers' movement to defend itself was physically. Thus, pre-World War II history explains why anti-fascism has been associated with violence. -

- However, many antifa activists consider today that violence is not justified, since fascists don't represent, in most countries, a massive physical threat. They argue that they should be fought intellectually. However, others disagree, and point out that skinheads pose a real threat in some neighborhoods, and have sometimes killed people. These antifascists claim that self-defense is necessary, because they observe that the state doesn't defends equally the population of specific neighborhoods. In Russia, some neo-nazis have recently committed various hate crimes against foreigners. Some antifascists groups are: Anti-Racist Action, a US group created in the 1990s; the Swedish Antifascistisk aktion founded in 1993; the UK Anti-Nazi League, set up in 1977, and which merged in 2002 with Unite Against Fascism, whose chairman is London's mayor Ken Livingstone; the UK Anti-Fascist Action, which fights the National Front and the British National Party (BNP); Anarcho-skinheads (one must recall that the original skinhead movement was antifascist, and only latter became in majority neonazi).

BobFromBrockley 12:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• One of the major problems (besides the poor writing quality) is that it repeats a lot of content that is already in the article, but with different wording. The section above even repeats itself a few times. I'm pretty sure this section is an old version of the article before it was copy edited. Also, the list of groups at the end of the section are already in the links section, and there is nothing in the section above that gives any information about the groups beyond their names. Finally, the last sentence is inaccurate. The original skinheads weren't very political, and it would be a stretch to generalize them as all being anti-fascist (in terms of being politically active against fascism). Also, I dispute the statement that the majority of skinheads now are neo-Nazis. Maybe they have been in certain times and places (perhaps 1980s London and present-day Russia for example), but not when you look at the worldwide picture. There will never be any accurate statistics on that, and it would be nearly impossible to verify the numbers either way.Spylab 12:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree about skinhead thing. Didn't realise that all the historical info was already there in other paras. I completely agree with cut. BobFromBrockley 18:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Antifa

Antifa should not be redirected toward militant anti-fascism, as not all antifa groups are militant.