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May 2007

since some of these are prophets only in Judaism see Table of Prophets of Abrahamic Religions I am making a seperate template for the prophets of judaism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Worksheet for reviewing names of Prophets from the Protestant point of view

Prophet Defined

An authoritative and infallible teacher of God's will.

As names of Books of the Bible

Major Prophets

Minor Prophets

Other Prophets in the Bible

Ahijah
Azariah
Elijah
Elisha
Gad
Huldah
Iddo
Micaiah
Moses
Nathan
Samuel
Shemaiah
Uriah - a prophet who is murdered by Jehoiakim

The Patriachs

Judges

Deborah - also known as a prophet
Joshua

Priests

Kings

note: the Kings are generally not considered prophets though many of their utterances were prophetic.

Duplicate?

Pinchas - redirects to Phinehas

Questionable (need to do more research)

Important persons in the Bible but questionable regarding status as prophet

These may be known to have spoken a prophetic utterance, but that in itself may not be enought to carry the title of prophet

Amoz
Eliezer
Miriam - the sister of Moses
Sarah - the wife of Abraham

Names belonging to the Judaism list

Judaism: Baruch Neriah Seraiah Mordecai Hannah Abigail Esther

I would agree with the segregation of the current list as seen above, but would recommend adding to that list some of the names listed above, but would like to do a bit more research before recommending making any changes. Dbiel ^(Talk) 02:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About the "Questionable" sections:

Chaziel=Jahaziel – HE
Hanani – HE
Oded – HE
Eliezer – refers to Eliezer son of Dodavahu in HE
Miriam – "Miriam the prophetess" in Exodus 15:20

The others have no direct Biblical source, as far as I know. --Eliyak T·C 03:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Note: the above links still need to be checked and revised. The above worksheet is still underconstruction and was input by Dbiel ^(Talk) 12:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is a template, and its purpose is mainly for navigation within this encyclopedia, rather than to define or explain anything. I commend you for your interest, but I do not think we are going to be able to make a constructive template that uses all this information. Would you also add Abel and Zechariah Ben Jehoiada (see Luke 11:50–51)? As Christians do not recognise a fixed list of "Prophets", other than the writers of books of the Bible, I suggest that this template should simply use the Jewish list, adding only Daniel for Christian purposes. Perhaps it could usefully have three sections: those clearly recognised by both religions i.e. the above lists of major, minor & other prophets, then "Judaism:" before the rest, ending with "Christianity: Daniel". Fayenatic london (talk) 13:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This list is being built solely at the request of Epson291 for the purpose of identifing difference between the Protestant and Jewish POV (his request can be found on my talk page under the heading Prophets). As far as major, minor goes, this only refers to the books of the Bible themselves, not to the prophets; and is only being used for the purpose of building this list. In terms of the template, they probably should be combinded with the list of "other prophets" as a single group of prophets. The heading used are not meant to become part of the template but rather a simple sorting guide for viewing difference that can then be used to determine what, if any, changes should be made to the template itself.

I probably should have worked this worksheet in my sandbox and then copied it over only after it was finished, but in this case I chose to start it here instead, allowing others to work on it as well, if they so chose. Dbiel ^(Talk) 03:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree re major/etc. By 3 sections I meant: Both, Judaism, Christianity. I think this is what you are working on too; I was just suggesting the sections of the list above which I thought most Christians would describe as prophets.

Why would the Judges "also fall into the category of prophets"? Fayenatic london (talk) 08:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This leads to the greater question of what is the difference between a King, Prophet, Priest and Judge (the rule of Israel prior to the first King). Debroah was clearly one of the Jewish Judges but was also known as a prophetess. David and Solomon are far better know as being Kings of Israel rather than as prophets. I am simply raising the question as I have no objection to their inclusion in the list. Dbiel ^(Talk) 01:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Logo changes and recent reverts

I reverted it for now to the original one, I'm not sure where this is heading though. Epson291 07:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I split the previous entry off of the prior topic and gave it a new heading. Dbiel ^(Talk) 19:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhere along the line the heading "Judaism:" was deleted. It think it was unintentional. It along with Christianity served to break out those entries that were not common between both Judaism and Christianity. I added the heading back in. On a separate note: I liked the smaller original logos better, but that is just my single POV. Dbiel ^(Talk) 19:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, actually the big pictures are the "original" but who's counting, I don't care either way. Epson291 03:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish section

The talmud doesn't list noah and adam as prophets but later jewish texts list them as prophets --Java7837 20:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which texts? Epson291 07:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure but i do remember learning that Noah was a prophet from some jewish text--Java7837 22:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please verify it before readding it? I'm only familar with the 55 prophets accoridng to the Talmud, that is what i learned. Epson291 03:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Epson291 there is a certain spot in the talmud where it lists all the prophets but it doesn't mention Bithia she is said in sotah 12b to have prophesied see http://www.come-and-hear.com/sotah/sotah_12.html Java7837 20:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Epson291 the following are listed as gentile prophets in Baba Bathra 15b Seven prophets prophesied to the heathen, namely, Balaam and his father, Job, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, Zophar the Naamathite, and Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite

http://www.come-and-hear.com/bababathra/bababathra_15.html#PARTb --Java7837 21:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Forty-Eight Prophets and Seven Prophetesses

The Talmud (Megillah 14a) says that there were 48 Jewish male prophets and 7 female prophets. The Talmud lists the female prophets as: Sarah, Miria, Deborah, Hannah, Abigail, Huldah, and Esther. The Talmud does not list the exact reckoning of the 48 male prophets. The commentaries on the Talmud there scramble to list the 48 prophets. Rabbeinu Chananel offers one method of listing the 48. Rashi quotes in the name of Rabbi Simeon Kayyara another reckoning of the 48, and the Vilna Gaon and Rabbi Joel Sirkes offer textual emendations to version of Rashi which in essence two more reckonings of the 48 prophets. AND Rabbi Jehiel ben Solomon Heilprin offers an alternate version of the quote from Rabbi Simeon Kayyara. So, it's a big issue how to count the 48 prophets, especially because in Rashi's own counting, he only lists 46 and says that there are two more that he doesn't know their identities. The commentators, including Rabbi Abraham Maskileison, Rabbi Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter, Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Chajes, The Netziv and Rabbi Aryeh Leib ben Asher Gunzberg also try to figure the identities of the two prophets who Rashi left out. Should I bother typing up all the details of this discussion in English? --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 22:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See User:Rachack/48 Prophets. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 19:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plz type it up in english it is very important--Java7837 19:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Daniel not considered a prophet by the jews

the talmud says thus "They were better than he, because they were prophets, and be, Daniel, was not a prophet." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t04/meg02.htm --Java7837 18:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

Can the Judeo-Christian section, and the jewish section lists be alphabetized--Java7837 18:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be inclined to keep the present chronological approach with divisions for Torah and other eras. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity -abel

Luke 11:50–51) clearly identifies abel as a prophet --Java7837 20:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity zechariah

see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%2024:20-22&version=31

and http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2011:50-11:51&version=31

--Java7837 20:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good work, although I wasn't serious when I originally suggested adding Abel and Zechariah - I simply meant to point out how complicated it could become. I think the template has got rather messy at the moment. We also need a new article for Jehu son of Hanani 1 Kings 16:1,7,12 & 2 Chron 19:2 (is that one man or two?) because there's currently only a page for Jehu the butcher-king son of Nimshi (1 Kings 19:16, 2 Kings 9 - 10) who was in no way a prophet. Fayenatic london (talk) 22:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They are specifically called prophets so i thought it was important to put them on the template--Java7837 23:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now that is what I call a stubby stub! At least it gets the butcher off the template. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eldad and Medad

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_17.html says they prophesied "Moses shall die and Joshua shall bring Israel into the land" and thus are not false prophets like christians consider them to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know which Christians you had in mind; I did a quick Google search and only found one wacky apocalyptic site that seemed to suggest this. Mainstream Christians have no quarrel with Eldad and Medad being genuine, e.g. Catholic Encyclopedia. - Fayenatic london (talk) 09:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

additions to the prophets of christianity and judaism

I have moved Eldad and Medad from the jewish section to the both section per the comment above by Fayenatic london --Java7837 14:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added the The seventy elders of Israel per Numbers 11:25 --Java7837 14:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added Saul per 1 Samuel 10:9-10 --129.115.38.13 14:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added saul's men per 1 Samuel 19:20--Java7837 14:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does the Bible always mean the same thing by "prophesied"? These seem to be groups of people making estatic utterances by the Spirit of God. No disrespect to them, but shouldn't the status of "prophet" be reserved for those who speak the inspired word of God to the people, rather than just to/among themselves? I would think that was the intention of the Talmud's 48 + 7. In the New Testament too, there is a distinction between the gift of prophesying and the role of prophet. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A prophet is defined by someone who is filled with the spirit of G-d and says words in his name the person saying it to a person is not required by this definition--66.143.244.177 02:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question for christians

Hebrews 11:32-33 says" 32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions,"

Is this saying Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah are prophets?--Java7837 14:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. It's a fascinating chapter, isn't it? Notable enough to have its own article here one day. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Prophets and prophecy articles

In all the arguments someone forgot to actually edit the articles Prophet and Prophecy. I have taken this upon myself, in the process moving the Prophecy article from charismatic Christianity project to A-graded Wikiproject Judaism portal. There is much work to be done since the original article included oracles, and fictional books from 'new age' perspective as well as Greek mythology!
I have not begun on the Prophet article yet, but that also needs an expensive rewrite.
The post "Worksheet for reviewing names of Prophets from the Protestant point of view" on defining prophets is actually NAMING prophets since a definition of a prophet is somewhat longer, and as Rambam zl"l points out, comes in many levels.--Mrg3105 23:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eber

see http://www.chabad.org/library/article.htm/aid/8174/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-10.html look for verse 25--Java7837 04:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kenan

see http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/pol/pol04.htm --Java7837 19:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

suggestion for the template

Can we color code the prophets i think it doesn't make sense to not list all the prophets in chronological order and color code so that blue means accepted by both religions light blue means accepted by jews but not christians and yellow for accepted by christians but not jews

please tell me if you like this idea i think it would look a lot nicer--Java7837 21:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's certainly worth a try. How about green for both? -- that would be more intuituve, as the overlap of the other two colours.

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

- Fayenatic (talk) 09:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My issue with green is that it is a symbol of islam here is my suggestion

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

--129.115.38.9 12:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

here is another suggestion

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

--Java7837 12:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If not green, then another sequence that shows a combination of colours for the overlap category, e.g. Pink, light salmon, light yellow? Light pink, plum, light blue?

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

This uses MistyRose, Thistle, LightCyan, and looks good on a Mac:

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

Here's a palette: http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_colornames.asp. - Fayenatic (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

Abel	Abraham	Sarah

Maybe one of the two above? --129.115.38.13 13:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the second one of the two above--129.115.38.13 13:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If we are to use any of these, I prefer the 3rd. But I am not sure color-coding would be a positive development for the template. --Eliyak T·C 15:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

addition to the jewish section

[1] says Joseph is extolled by the Rabbis for being well versed in the Torah, for being a prophet, and for supporting his brothers (Tan., Wayesheb, 20) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is Joseph (Genesis) considered a prophet in Christianity

Is Joseph (Genesis) considered a prophet in Christianity? --69.153.67.219 11:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. He is not mentioned in the Catholic Encyclopedia page on prophets linked above re #Eldad and Medad, and I can't think of any Protestants who have taught that he was. Fayenatic (talk) 12:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Prophets of Christianity lists Joseph as a prophet--129.115.102.13 13:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

that article also lists Agur, Gideon, King Nebuchadnezzar (?????????????????)--129.115.102.13 13:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am also suspicious of some the people classified as prophets of christianity on Table of prophets of Abrahamic religions --129.115.102.13 13:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Prophets of Christianity gives Gen 37:5–11 as the supporting reference, in which Joseph was given a dream foreseeing the future. I was going to respond, if that makes him a prophet, then so is Nebuchadnezzar a prophet! No, Christianity emphasises prophecy as speaking the words of God, rather than foreseeing future events. Neither Joseph nor Nebuchadnezzar. I'll move such people to a new section of that article. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Star

The black one looks best on the template. The blue looks funny and #3 is fuzzy, besides being a png and not an svg. -- Avi 03:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 269: / Line 269: @@
 :Interesting. [[Prophets of Christianity]] gives {{bibleverse||Gen|37:5-11|HE}} as the supporting reference, in which Joseph was given a dream foreseeing the future.  I was going to respond, if that makes him a prophet, then so is Nebuchadnezzar a prophet!  No, Christianity emphasises prophecy as speaking the words of God, rather than foreseeing future events. Neither Joseph nor Nebuchadnezzar.  I'll move such people to a new section of that article. - [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User_talk:Fayenatic_london|(talk)]] 13:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
+== Star ==
+The black one looks best on the template. The blue looks funny and #3 is fuzzy, besides being a png and not an svg. -- [[User:Avraham|Avi]] 03:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)