Talk:S-400 missile system

Stealth

I am disputing this thing's capability to detect and engage stealth aircraft and am removing the statement until verifiable information on the subject is found. Jtrainor 22:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The missilethreat.com link mentions it, but that's the best you're gonna get unless there will be a big war anytime soon. -Dammit 11:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I am disputing the ability of stealth aircraft to be effective against new radars until proven otherwise. Please provide evidence that stealth works. So far, with S-125 being able to intercept F-117, it is very possible that S-400 with newest radar with 600 km range detection can detect and intercept stealth aircraft. Why should we believe that americans are always saying truth and russians are saying lie ??? Clearly biased thinking. did americans aquire any russian radars to tests Stealth aircraft against them? No. did russians aquire stealth aircraft to test their radars against it? Yes. Pavel.

I have found many sources about anti stealth here are some, http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/1999/FTS19990821000218.htm , http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/1999/FTS19990505000617.htm , http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/s-400.html (RabbitHead 18:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC))

I am adding it again since there are sources that say that it can detect stealth. (RabbitHead 10:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC))

All those links say that Russia CLAIMS that they can detect stealth. They don't prove that it can.

The Russians do not have a very good record on technical claims. Jtrainor 14:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

So anything and everything said by a russian must be a lie?, The last link http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/s-400.html is very creditabel, also I dont know if you know but a Stealth bomber was shoot down in kosovo in 1999 with old Soviet equipment if old Soviet eq can shot down a stealth bomber then the newest russian should also be able to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk (RabbitHead 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

Well, stealth is a pretty vague term, and any stealth aircraft can be detected (just at a lower range), so how about we drop the stealth part of that sentence but leave the rest of the sentence in there? That would hopefully keep everyone content. - Dammit 16:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

But it can shoot down stealth aircraft and there are sources that say so. I could give even more sources if so needed. (RabbitHead 16:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

It definitely should be mentioned, perhaps it could be worded differently. It could say "The S-400 is claimed to possess advanced capabilities for detecting and engaging low RCS aircraft.", or something similar. "Stealth" aircraft are nothing magical, they simply have a much lower radar cross section than conventional aircraft, it was only a matter of time before extremely powerful radar systems came out that could detect them, or other methods to detect them were developed and integrated with SAM systems. And considering the S-400 is a continuation of the S-300 series, which although like most modern military equipment isn't combat proven, is very widely regarded to be the most advanced in the world, I don't doubt that the S-400 has at least some ability to detect and destroy "stealth" aircraft. I think that the sentence I suggested is objective and appropriate, so I am going to include it in the article. --Skyler Streng 18:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That works for me. Glad we can resolve this without having an NPOV argument over some Russian missile all of 3 people here will care about :) Jtrainor 17:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic. :] --Skyler Streng 19:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Just so you guys know the SAM that hit that F-117 back in 1999 was not guided in by radar. The F-117 ended up flying over a rather intact battery of SAMs and it was spotted visually, probably with the aid of night vision and infra-red systems. They then fired a salvo of manually guided SAMs and one exploded close enough to force the pilot to eject. The long wavelength of the radar used with the SA-3 could occasionally detect the F-117 for short times at certain angles but not nearly enough to track it or launch a missile. The Russians will have said other radars can track stealth aircraft but do they have any stealth aircraft to test it on? Interested Reader

Can you prove that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.169.232 (talk) 18:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone changed the "claims to be able to" into "highly capable of". This is POV as there has NOT been a case of an S-400 shooting down a "stealth" aircraft. I'm changing it back. CAS 117 00:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC) CAS_117

Is the original Russian diviziya or divizion here?

18 divisions of S-400 are planned for purchaise to 2015

It is probably divizion (battalion), but please check, because in English "division" implies a very big unit.

divizion (дивизион), of course! But I aint sure that battalion is a proper translation for divizion (couple of batteries). --jno 09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Big missile

Is it known if the "big missile" is deployed or not? Profhobby 20:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's too early to talk about actual deployment (see above). --jno 09:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have seen news reports that the S-400 systems are being deployed. But, with what missiles? My impression is that the big missile is not yet ready and is not being deployed. Profhobby 02:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Errr... Which one? 5V55* and 48N6E* missiles bigger than newer 9M96E*, but smaller than the latest one (no GRAU index known so far). The biggest missile for S-300/400 family will be available by the end of 2006 [1]

Note, most equipment is identical (or upgraded) to those of S-300PMU series: 5P85S and 5P85T launchers (8..12), 36N6, 64N6 and 76N6 radars, 83M6 control post. Single launcher can carry 4 the newest SARH/ARH missiles or 4 9M96E* [2] [3]

Planned re-arming rate is 2 regiments (of total 35) in a year [4] --jno 12:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the claim that S-400 has twice the range of Patriot and 2 and a half range of S-300 PMU-2, that implies S-300 has lower range than Patriot, while in fact it has much longer range.

I agree, there is a mistype in many sources, the range of S-300 is more than that of Patriot, it is rather otherwise, S-400 has twice the range of S-300 and 2 and a half times that of Patriot.

Renaming of the Page

Hadn't we decided to stick with the Russian designations now that they are available? Why change it now to the NATO designation. For older Soviet missiles, this makes some sense because everyone in the West remembers the NATO designation, but this is not true for the newer weapons. I doubt anybody is any more familiar with SA-20 or SA-21 than the S-300 or S-400. Please explain the reason for the change. Kazuaki Shimazaki 01:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

JFYI: Name origin

Just like many other names of soviet/russian weapon systems, this one was taken from the special list of codenames, but initially it was "Triumfator", which was shortened to "Triumf". This explanation was picked up from a private talks with development team member. --jno 09:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

S-400M Samodyerzhets

This is supposedly part of the S-400 family after Almaz and Antey merged, but I must wonder what's the rationale. For antimissile purposes, the new 40N6 ("big" missile) is superior (at least as opined by Russian unclassified sources) to the 9M82M in range, max engagement speed (and thus the range of the IRBM it could counter). Similarly, any of the 48N6 series is superior in range to the 9M82. Even the little dinky 9M96M/E2 has a longer range! So there is no apparent need to 'combine[s] the far range of the S-300VM missile and the advanced electronics of the S-400 missile'. Is there a good explanation for this (or even an official explanation? Kazuaki Shimazaki 13:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Image

Any cules on what this thing looks like. Obviously it will be hard to get a picture of it as it is reletivly new. And secondly any clues on the future operators of the system, other then China. Thanks, Bogdan 18:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

RANGE

The range is not 3,500km, it is only 400km see http://www.fas.org/news/russia/1999/FTS19990505000617.htm

For the Nth time, people that edit the sentence are showing an ignorance of the factors involved. The missile's range is 400km. It can engage a ballistic missile out to 60km (IIRC). But the measure in the sentence is the range of the ballistic missile the S-400 can effectively target. The range of a ballistic missile roughly correlates to its speed. For example, short range Scud missiles (~100-200km) have a speed of 1.6-1.8km/s. Modified Scud missiles used by Saddam are in the 2km/s range and have ranges of about 500km. 3km/s corresponds to about 1000km range, 4.5km/s to 2500km and 4.8km/s to 3500km. In short. Reverting. Again. --Kazuaki Shimazaki 01:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

F-117 shot down

"Youtube movie shows the shrapnel holes on pieces of aircraft. This proves the fact that aircraft was shoot down. Not fall by incident like NATO generals told before."

I get your point, but why should it be on an article about S-400???? To ensure your fact does not bring sensationalism (as per WP:NEU) to the article. Germ 21:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Because the whole phrase "Sources claim that the S-400 is capable of detecting and destroying aircraft made with low observable materials such as "stealth" aircraft (although the types of detectable aircraft, extent to which detection is possible, and methods of detection and tracking have not been verified)" sounds like there are strong doubts about S-400 ability to detect and destroy such kind of aircraft. And it’s actually more POV than opinion based on facts. The fact is “stealth” aircraft could be destroyed even by an obsolete S-125. So there is no doubt that the latest generation of Soviet/Russian air defense systems can do that even better. I’ve change this phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Necator (talk • contribs) 09:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The F-117 that got shot down in Eastern Europe was shot down because it used the same speed and altitude and route every day-- had orders to. It's path was predicted and it got taken down with a manually guided missile. Jtrainor 17:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove that somehow? Reliable sources? "got taken down with a manually guided missile" aha... at night ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Necator (talk • contribs) 22:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It's irrelevant to this article either way and I will continue to revert your attempted POV-pushing. Jtrainor 02:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I've put an wikiquette alert about that Necator 19:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's just boil this down to the basics.

Has the S-400 ever shot down a stealth aircraft? No. Has it ever been tested against a stealth aircraft? No.

Therefore, any statements with regard to it's effectiveness against stealth aircraft are claims and not fact. Jtrainor 00:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Jtrainor - this statement has a reliable source. Not all reliably sourced statements are rigorously scientifically tested. In fact, your assertions are often completely unsourced - meaning your additions are the one that are not facts. To state that something is impossible requires a source too. --Cheeser1 14:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The Bulava has no relevance to this article.

Necator, I noticed you've violated the 3RR rule. How far will you go to push your POV? Jtrainor 22:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It has already been explained that to say "this missile is intended to _____" or "this missile does ____" does not require a thorough scientific test. Stop making absurd demands for proof of things that are sourced in information regarding the missile. No Wikipedian is going to go out and do missile tests in their back yard for you. And it looks to me like you've both broken the 3RR. Stop fighting, bickering, and revering each other. He's not the only one guilty of making this a discussion involving personal comments, incivility, and edit-warring. --Cheeser1 23:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain me, why am i guilty of this?Necator 00:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The current version of this text is misleading: "The S-400 is designed to be capable of detecting and destroying targets out to a range of 400km (250 miles), such as aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles, including those with a range of 3,500 km and a speed of 3 miles per second and stealth aircraft." These claims have not been corroborated by any tests made known to reputable sources, nor are the provided references reliable for making such claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources - until these can be provided, the least POV wording is as it was presented when I cleaned up the article's sourcing via the text "According to Russian sources". This is factual and can be easily cited - the current version cannot. MalikCarr 01:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: Furthermore, the supposition that "According to Russian sources" makes the statement less relevant or in any way inferior further implies the obvious POV conflicts presented by certain editors. It is a perfectly legitimate method to make these claims without resorting to original research or making unsourced statements (all of which are against policy). MalikCarr 01:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Dont you think that russians know better than anyone else how did they design their things, simply because they are designers of this things? And prase like "According to designers, they are designed that as A" sounds like there are doubts in the fact that they are actually designed that as A not as B or C. So, if you want to put this phrase, can you please provide a reference to reliable source, which claims that russians probably designed that S-400 in some other way rather than this? Necator 12:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

From list of your contributions and your behaviuor it seems to me that you are sock-puppet of Jtrainor Necator 18:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If you want to bring that up, try WP:SSP - this does not appear to be a single purpose account, or even a new account. You're going to have to do a little more than a happenstance sockpuppet accusation whenever two people agree with an opinion that you do not share. --Cheeser1 22:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I know what to do in case if i want to bring it up. And furthermore i said "it seems to me that you are", not "you are". Feel the difference. What about their opinion, its against wikipedia official policy. Both this users were told about Wikipedia:Verifiability, but keep putting absurd phrases in the article, trying to push Jtrainor's POV, asking for some "tests" here and so one...Necator 09:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Now noting that Necator has violated WP:3RR for the second time. Jtrainor 03:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Frankly I'm rather offended by such accusations. User:Jtrainor is a good friend of mine, and we have collaborated on projects before. However, even a casual observation between our prose and use of grammar/sentence structure should reveal innumerable differences and variations. In any case, aside from violating the three revert rule, I've also reported a blatant occurrence of violation of WP:AGF by User:Necator. Why don't you take a moment to calm down before an admin takes a particularly hostile view of your contributions? MalikCarr 04:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why dont you with your friend calm down? Necator 13:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Because we aren't making blatant policy accusations and violating WPs to push forward with a POV-riddled and improperly sourced article. MalikCarr 01:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

For what it is worth, this system appears in most ways to be another Russian vaporware system. They have a tendency to exaggerate the claims of their weapons systems to help foreign sales (and have been for 50 years now). This "edit war" is one over a bunch of nonsense claims from Russian salesmen. Duckhunter6424 02:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)