Talk:Bandog/Archive 1

Foreign language in Pit Dog section

Can someone translate it and determine what it's doing there and if it is worth keeping the translated text in the article? --Dihard 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Swinford

I am not sure what is the proper format for the discussion page, I am just inserting this as I sit fit and I apologize if that is the wrong way.

Considering the fact that no one but you refers to Bandog as Swinford anything. Unless directly referring to the bloodline that you have produced, leads me to believe that you putting it under alternative or common names is simply advertisement. Similarly, other people who breed Bandogs can start putting their bloodlines in there, I hope you see the issue with that. To prove this point you can simply do a basic Google search:

1.Swinford, no results related to dogs show up at all

2.Swinford K9, returns results posted on your website, your forum, or posts that you have made elsewhere

3.Swinford Bandog, returns mentions on various message boards referring to your bloodline specifically while discussing the general term Bandog

As I have pointed out in my original discussion post, and what is clearly stated in the first few lines of the article, the term Bandog has originated in Middle England around 1250. Besides numerous books in which Bandogs are described hundreds of years before the establishment of the United States you keep putting United States as the country of origin. Very convenient for a person taking the credit for creating the modern Bandog, plastering his name allover the article, and then linking to his page.

You have not corrected the history of modern Bandog, you have specifically wrote about your kennels bloodline history, and even better you have used your own page that you wrote as a reference. If you want to have a section dedicated to the job Swinford has done, I would be happy to have that but do note that other peoples opinions will also be reflected, including Joe Lucero.

Furthermore the concept behind a Bandog has been with us since the day we have started using dogs for guard work. That concept of mixing Mastiff with another breed to produce certain quality has never left us, we have clear modern examples of that with a Bullmastiff. Besides the fact that before Swinford, and after Swinford, a number of people have been mixing fighting dogs with the Mastiff all around the world to accomplish the same. You are simply taking the credit while you are simply just another kennel.

For the time being, I am once again changing the origin and removing Swinford from alternative names. I am not agreeing with the actions of the person that removed all references to Swinford under the modern breed description, even though I feel the information stated there only addresses your kennel, that is something I wanted to discuss with you first as I have mentioned in the original discussion topic. Vitaliy G

Please be sure that content (especially the content at the heart of the dispute) follows the guidelines set forward at Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and please cite your sources for fact claims. Thanks! kmccoy (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I really can not come up with anything better than Google to display that the name Swinford is not used as there are simply no resources that will say such name is not used. Google shows that no one uses the name but the person that is disputing this claim. Basic source for the origin as far as the date and location, Dictionary would be the easiest example http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bandog Some of the other historical references already have citations right in the article. The claim that Bullmastiff is a mix of a Mastiff with a Bulldog is addressed on its Wikipedia page. - Vitaliy G 21:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Vitaliy G

I have not altered the history information of the early bandog. I only corrected the modern breed history information. Also, all information posted by me in the modern bandog section can be verified. A referrence of such material can be viewed on the "Swinford Bandog" page...and this information is relative to the modern breed. Instead of making false accusations, why not point out SPECIFIC issues that you would like to address so a proper resolution can be found? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SSDA (talk • contribs)

Referrences to my comments can be validated both by the July-August issue of 1972 Sporting Dog Journal as well as another book by Jack Kelly, and also by a few of Carl Semencic's books. Swinford referred to his lines of dogs as "Swinford Bandogs" and his breeding were largely responsbible for the EM and APBT being primary components in the lines of dogs currently being developed as "Swinfords."

Issues

So, here we can finally address the issues regarding this article. I should make it very clear that I know nothing about dogs or the information in this article. I'm just eager to resolve this dispute.

To start, I'd like the newer users involved to read these guidelines and policies about what things should be included in Wikipedia articles. I've placed them in the order I think you should consider them:

• Wikipedia:Conflict of interest
• Wikipedia:External links
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources
• Wikipedia:No original research
• Wikipedia:Spam

I am especially concerned about User:SSDA inserting a link in the article to a commercial web site. Is this your business? If that is the case, it is almost certainly not acceptable to add that link.

Information about the modern history of the breed skirts the edge of original research, if the only source is the commercial web site of the editor inserting the information. We really need independent confirmation on this information, especially something published in a recognized journal for the subject.

Please discuss the issues here and hopefully we'll find some resolution to make everyone happy. kmccoy (talk) 02:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolution

Kmccoy, I will gladly work to find some sort of common ground with the group listing opposing view, but the keep removing the modern breed desciption and truth about what is going on with these dogs today. There is a great deal of truth that can be documented and should be reported. User:SSDA/SSDA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.158.57 (talk) 12:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yet instead of listing your issues, you just reverted back. Did you read the information I posted above, especially about conflict of interest? kmccoy (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Alright. I despise doing this, but I've protected the page. People, you need to come to this page and work out a resolution to the disagreement. The back and forth reverting solves nothing. This includes SSDA, vitaliy, and any users who haven't logged in. Discuss it here, because when the page is unprotected in a day or two, if the blind reverts continue, I'll start blocking the people who do them. So, please, talk this over. Thanks. :) kmccoy (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Appearance

While discussing the matter with someone else, I also plan on taking out the _whole_ appearance section from the article. Simply because a Bandog is not a set breed, and even as mentioned in the article, there are a number of variations depending on which breeds of dogs are being mixed (NeoMastiff x Pit Bull or Bull Terrier x Dogue de Bordeux would produce completely different dogs, as an example). All produce different sizes, colors, bone structure, coat, temperament, etc. Instead, the section will be replaced further discussing the foundation breedings and pointing out why appearance is unrelated. I would love to hear your input on the matter.

Vitaliy G 20:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)