Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/AutoNOC

AutoNOC

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Non-notable software platform. A search for sources turns up the company's own pages and some reprinted press releases, but no substantial secondary coverage. There are claims to notability — "monitors 4% of all internet traffic", plus some firsts like "1st NMS to Handle Up To 100 Terabytes of Network Mapped Live Historical Data Per Grid Node" — but these are unsourced and so essentially unverifiable. Article created by a single-purpose account called "AutoNOC", prod removed without reason by an IP address in Georgia, home of AutoNOC LLC. Thomjakobsen 13:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• All information posted on this page is accurate and verifiable. The page has been updated to include means for verification of the challenges issued by Mr. Thomjakobsen. AutoNOC LLC did edit this page to update it with more current information after the logon for the account we created for keeping the information accurate was deleted? We have no problem if this article is removed as Mr. Thomjakobsen has repeatedly request. However, Wikipedia needs to remove all other NMS's listed on Wikipedia at List_of_Network_Management_Systems. For some reason Mr. Thomjakobsen is singling out AutoNOC for deletion and is exempting these other packages. Very few of these manage as much traffic as AutoNOC does and some of these do not even have a single verifiable customer installation. Some of these pages that Wikipedia editors apparently have no problems with have little more than a paragraph listed.

• I'm not singling out your article; it just happened to be in a backlog of articles that have been flagged for notability concerns since March of this year. I'd agree with you that many of the articles in the list you point out also qualify for deletion on the same grounds on which I've nominated this one: that there is insufficient secondary coverage in reliable, independent sources to establish notability. The fact that those articles haven't been listed for deletion yet doesn't mean that I'm holding a grudge against this particular article, just that I found this one first. I can understand if you're irked by smaller competitors still having articles, and I'd be happy to go through that list — I'm not "exempting" them, I just haven't had a chance to look at them yet. By the way, the stuff about "verifiability" refers to the fact that we need independent sources to back up the facts in articles. I'm not saying that the information is false, just that we can't rely on a company's own assertions about the popularity and unique achievements of their products, because they so often exaggerate that kind of data. Thomjakobsen 01:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• Well, we've raised this issue every time someone has flagged our article for the year or so it's been listed and people keep listing our article but none of the others. The other list actually appears to be growing, not shrinking and random clicks on them do not indicate anywhere near a similar level of scrutiny that this entry is receiving. We originally added this article to that list and filled out the page for it because people were researching lists of NMS on Wikipedia according to google logs and ours was not listed. After posting the page, people requested more details and notability information. We posted the most notable aspects, which we believe to be significant. And in this very long process, for some reason AutoNOC keeps getting singled out. I am fine with removing this page ... providing all of the others are also removed. Selective inclusion / editing is, however, a substantial problem for AutoNOC especially considering the quality of product and articles that are not receiving anywhere near the same level of scrutiny. We don't disagree with the process ... we do however feel it is highly biased against us in favor of open source software (a lot of which is crap that companies can't even get support for) and for other software for which we can't actually determine why it hasn't been deleted. Every time we come to our page someone has marked it up some other way procedurally and none of the other pages that are far worse have been touched. We like Wikipedia, we support the project, however, decisions should be made to either remove all discussion of these products from Wikipedia, or accept all of the legitimate ones with a clear baseline of what should be and shouldn't be included. The problem is the existing process reeks of subjectivity and bias. For some reason we are on the wrong side of this bias, and we are going to raise the issue until it is resolved. The entire list and relevant entries need to be removed, or AutoNOC, a company with one product that it has been selling and supporting it for a decade needs to be included.

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletions. --Gavin Collins 01:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Does not appear to have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" as required by WP:N. —gorgan_almighty 11:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep AutoNOC or Delete All on the NMS List. How can you have a page like this that purports to be a universal "list of network management systems" List of Network Management Systems and then selectively exclude packages that manage 3-4% of global internet traffic while keeping others that don't have one production customer deployment? I agree with and support anti-commercialization efforts within Wikipedia ... however, the only public "independent sources" listed by many of the sites on that page are paid advertisements and paid for software reviews bundled with advertising. So is then the requirement of notability to not be technical achievement, but rather, how many magazine advertisements you buy? Which is more notable? Purchasing magazine ads and editorial reviews in commercial publications, or being the first NMS to handle 1 million probes on a single server in 60 seconds while managing 3-4% of global Internet traffic? What type of notability is more important? Technical notability or purchases of commercial editorials? Half of the references listed by some of the applications selectively exempted from Wiki-scrutiny were simply bundled advertisement purchases from magazines and other websites. So, according to Wikipedia editors, we should go out and purchase a commercial review of our technology and then reference it on this page just to have the page included? No offense - but that is completely idiotic. We can probably do it however, ... but it's still completely idiotic. We don't actually want a lot of mainstream people to know about AutoNOC much at this stage because we don't want more customers and can't handle them from a high quality customer support perspective right now, but we do want AutoNOC included in any comprehensive NMS lists on the Internet. So, if you delete this page, we will simply go out and purchase one or many small "notable" magazine reviews, probably with 3.0 release next year, re-post this page and reference the review we purchased to meet Wikipedia's "notability" requirements. That is all that the people you have exempted from scrutiny have done, many of which don't even have production customers. The irony here is that your efforts to reduce commercialism in Wikipedia are actually increasing it.
• Deletion Will Affect AutoNOC Wiki Project and Related Server/Hardware. At this stage, we are tired of arguing about this. If you keep the other entries on the NMS list while selectively deleting the AutoNOC page, the result is pretty simple for us. Upon selective deletion of this page while you retain the other NMS pages, we will terminate all related wiki projects. If there is no place for AutoNOC in the wiki world ... there is no place for wiki in the AutoNOC world. I'm tired of arguing about this. Hopefully, someday there will be a knowledge aggregator that comes along that has a place for AutoNOC. If it does, we will certainly be supporting THAT project, because our efforts to support the wiki standard to date have obviously been a waste of time and resources.

• I'm not sure what you mean — that website isn't related to Wikipedia in any way, it just runs on the same underlying software. How does terminating a project on your own servers affect this site? Thomjakobsen 00:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• We have supported the wikipedia project in a number of ways over the years. From this point forward, we will be pretty clear. In this highly and obviously biased situation (from our perspective), if there is no room for AutoNOC in the wiki world, there is no room for wiki in the AutoNOC world. I believe in the theory of wikipedia ... but I think it needs to be replaced by something that has more sensible methods of handling these kinds of questions. You guys need to remove all those other NMS entries if you are excluding AutoNOC. It's that simple.

• I'm still not sure what "no room for wiki in the AutoNOC world" means. If I get you right, if this article gets deleted, you'll shut down a project on your own servers that has no relation to this site? How is that of any consequence for this site? Could you be more specific? Thomjakobsen 00:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• No, I won't be more specific other than to say that I believe in the long-term concept of an Internet knowledge aggregator and will do what I can to insure one emerges and becomes the leader that is free from bias of this type.

• Sounds great, good luck with it. Thomjakobsen 00:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• “Luck has a peculiar habit of favoring those who don't depend on it”.

• Well, good luck with it anyway. Thomjakobsen 01:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Ooh look at that," Mr Cesarz said, apparently referring to cockpit readings. "Pretty cool."

• Comment. I believe the creators of this article are misunderstanding the concept of a wiki. Wikipedia uses the MediaWiki software. You may also be using the MediaWiki software, but the connection between your servers and the Wikipedia servers ends there. Deletion of an article on Wikipedia will not affect any MediaWiki software running on your servers at all. Neither should Wikipedia be biased in favour of your project simply because you use the same underlying software. Would you expect a news source to show you extra favour because you both use the Apache web server software?? To find out the minimum inclusion requirements needed for an article on Wikipedia, please read Wikipedia:Notability.—gorgan_almighty 12:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• No Confusion on Technologies - The Problem is WikiBias Against Middle-Tier Vendors. We have full understanding of how the technologies work. This issue is no where near as simple as your "notability policy redirect, lets delete it". The AutoNOC entry is notable on a great many extents and certainly meets notability concerns if any researcher had actually sat down to google AutoNOC and read it's history. The problem here is bias. You are exempting from scrutiny free software and software from large monopolies apparently weighing mass distribution on "free software sites" and paid editorial/advertisement bundles purchased by large monopolies ahead of true notability. There is an apparent attempt being made on Wikipedia to list all known NMS, however, at the same time as this list is being created, the editors are systematically excluding middle-tier vendors from this list. AutoNOC is more than notable enough to be included in any master NMS list anywhere on the Internet and for Wikipedia editors to single us out for deletion while keeping free software that is crap and large monopoly software that doesn't actually work is unacceptable to us. If you want to delete the article ... fair enough ... we believe this is a fundamentally biased decision, and as a result, we will terminate all past, current, and future involvement with the Wiki project to devout time, effort, and resources in order to find replacements for Wikipedia that are not so biased against middle-tier vendors as a direct consequence. It may be hard for a wiki-editor to understand this, however, from our shoes, this bias isn't a joke. It is real bias. It is material bias. The editors are clearly favoring both free software that is crap and software from large monopolies that doesn't work ... over middle-tier vendors that are successful for 10 years. The existing policy of presenting a "master NMS list" and then only allowing free software and software from large monopolies to be listed ... while excluding middle-tier vendors that have 10 year successful operating histories is biased and exclusionary. Period. It may be difficult for the Wiki-editors to see this, however it is still true. If your existing rules only allow free software and software from large monopolies to be listed in "all-encompassing product category lists" then there is something seriously wrong with that ... and from our perspective, given our 10 year operating history, this is highly biased. Get rid of the lists and we will shut up and go away. But if you keep the "master product list" and exclude AutoNOC from them, it's going to be an issue for us long-term and we will do what we can to either correct the bias against us or to replace the project that is acting in a biased manner. We certainly are going to discontinue all involvement with wikipedia and support alternatives, at a minimum. You guys need to delete that entire list ... include AutoNOC, it really is that simple.. Why don't you establish "notability" by actually trying to download all the software on that list and seeing which ones you can actually get to work? I bet if you did that, you will delete 80% of that list and put AutoNOC at the top. I bet you guys can't even get 50% of the products on that list running properly within 6 months!