Talk:Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism

The category Christian fundamentalism and evangelicalism encompasses two topics. One edit placed the ELCA in this category. Based on the five tests of fundamentalism, the ELCA does not subscribe to biblical inerrancy; although it is closely aligned with the category of Christian Evangelicalism. See the discussion How do Lutherans look upon the Bible? I will be doing a similar edit to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania page.

Robbie Giles 14:24, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Reversion

I look thru the history page of this group and the first entry looks like a stub. it appears that later on someone replace that with something from elca website. I will put the original back inSmith03 17:43, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC).

ELCA and Missouri Synod

I tried to flesh out what was here a little bit. Being a member of the rival Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod colors my perspective, but I tried to be fair. Hopefully an ELCA member will come along sometime and elaborate/expand a bit. Dave Farquhar 21:32, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The ELCA and LCMS are not rivals, just two different church bodies with different histories. EdwinHJ 06:25, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, the word "rival" is perhaps a bit harsh, but we do have some differences. Dave Farquhar 14:12, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If they are rivals, what's their win-loss record? Fishal 17:02, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

History of AELC

The History is scewed. The AELC mainly left for reasons other then the ones listed. If you don't believe me, read, "Anatomy of an Explosion" by Marquart, which give a history of the whole event.--192.160.64.49 03:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sex abuse scandals

How is the sex abuse not relevant to the ELCA main info page? It was the largest per capita settlment in U.S. history; it made ABC, CNN, Fox News, and Yahoo's main stories, and even foreign papers. Current events become historical events over time, the fact that it is current does not diminish its worthiness to be included in a wikipedia article. If there were, no articles on September 11 or the occupation of Iraq would exist. There is also a precendent for including sex abuse in a main church article: the sex abuse scandals envolving the catholic church are included there.

This was a story that got international coverage; invloves a fact of national scale, and is certainly an inmportant development in the history of the ELCA and is relevant to the article. The reference should be restored; perhaps as part of a more comprehensive history of the church; it should have never been deleted without discussion.

-JCarriker 03:17, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

Since, there seems to be no objections I am going to place the child abuse information back into the article.

--JCarriker 01:42, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

The sex abuse case was just deleted by 208.238.207.221 and I just replaced it. I'm personally not sure whether this one case is deserving of its own section on the ELCA page, but since there's already a discussion about the issue on the talk page, it seems like this should be discussed rather than simply deleted without comment. The anonymous user also deleted the Categories and the "See also" section; I have no idea why this was done, which is why I'm restoring the whole thing. Whoever did these deletions: you're welcome to make a case for why these don't belong on here (although the Categories and "See also" certainly do belong), but a discussion would be more useful than simply deleting large chunks of text with no comment. Ropcat 02:22, 21 March 2005 (UTC)

EdwinHJ has contiunually removed the abuse section from this article. I'm not in a frame of mind to debate this right now. So I'm posting it on the talk page for the time being, which is standard for disputed passages. It should not be removed form the talk page. -JCarriker 21:26, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

Abuse case

In March and April 2004, the ELCA agreed to pay the largest per capita settlement in a church abuse case in the United States to date. The payment was a combination of a jury award and a separate settlement, both stemming from civil suits filed by fourteen plaintiffs against the ELCA, a member synod, several church officials, one of the church's seminaries, and one of its congregations. The plaintiffs charged that they had been sexually abused by an ELCA minister at a church in Marshall, Texas, and that the defendants had been negligent in their oversight and evaluation of the offender. Seeking to reassure member congregations, a church spokesperson subsequently noted that "ELCA bishops do not have authority to reassign clergy, and they do not move known perpetrators to other ministry locations." The offending minister was convicted and sentenced to prison in 2003, and removed from the ELCA's clergy roster.

This was an incident at a single church and while the large $s may be noteworthy, this is not a news item that has had any significant impact (obviously outside the folks who were involved) over the past year. If temporary news items about a denomination are items for inclusions, where's the BTK serial killer section or arsenic poisoning that happened at coffee hour? -Jcbarr 04:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Such cases appear in the Catholic Church article. The precedent has already been established, why should any exceptions be made for the ELCA? -JCarriker 03:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Beliefs and practice

This section seems poorly worded and certainly not 100% accurate. Anyone with better writing skills than I want to take a crack at it? -Jcbarr 20:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jcbarr's statement in regards to a lawsuit filed against the ELCA. While Lutheran (LCMS) myself, I truly believe that the intent of the articles on our various denominations should be to convey the facts of our faith, theological history, doctrinal differences within, as well as those we hold with both Christian and, what we would believe (based on the rejection of the trinity)non-Christian churches. Issues regarding more political type scenarios should be removed. - Jeff

The problem with the Beliefs and Practice section is that it presents a scewed version that many, many ELCA churchmembers reject. As I know a good number of them, I assure you that they DO believe in consubtantiation. But a minority of libereralized people in the ELCA don't, and they want to pretend that the whole synod doesn't. This is an extreame POV, if you want to accuse me of extreame POV, you must accuse yourself as well.--192.160.64.49 03:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The following quote, "In practice however, the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and its teachings mean little to the clergy of the synod" seems to me to not represent a fair view of the ELCA or its pastors. Indeed, in our rite of ordination, pastors promise to uphold the Confessions of our church. Certainly, I would agree that a pastor from the LC-MS and I would have different ideas about what it means to take the UAC seriously ... but I do (and most pastors I have met also do). Also, the ELCA is not referred to as a "synod," that word is received for the judiciaries within the ELCA. If no one objects, I will change this bit. Pastordavid

I already removed the POV statements. KitHutch 13:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

new category

Many Lutherans these days are taking a new look and rejecting the use of the term denomination. Many say we arent a denomination per se but a reform movement within the catholic Church. I object to this new category name. EdwinHJ | Talk 00:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a view rejected by many in the ELCA and familar with it. The proper classification of the ELCA is a "Modern Liberal Protestant Denomination." Even Karl Barth said that being a modern liberal protestant was herisy.--192.160.64.49 03:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Eucharist

I am soemwhat confused by the practice of Communion in the Lutheran Church. Does the Church require ordination for preparation of Eucharist or can any member perform the rite? -- Psy guy ^Talk 03:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

In the ELCA, generally speaking a person needs to be ordained to perform communion. However, in emergency situation, a member can be authorized by a bishop to perform the rite on a specific date at a specific time. KitHutch 19:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Social issues

I feel that the section on blessing/ordination of gays and lesbians is too long for the section it's currently in, and out of proportion with the length given to the other social issues in the list. Not that I don't think this is an important debate to document; on the contrary, I suggest that it be briefly summarized here, and then that this debate get its own, more lengthy article. (The description here, I think, is too short to be as comprehensive as would be desirable, and too long to fit the category it's placed in). What does everyone think? Ropcat 03:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, someone could write an article about how this issue is affecting all mainline denominations? I know that it is also an issue in the United Methodist Church. KitHutch 22:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

has anyone done any work on such an article, otherwise, I coulder start. Revcjconner 02:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

A good place to look is the Category LGBT issues and religion which has three articles Homosexuality and Christianity, Gay bishops, and Religion and homosexuality. I did not find anything specifically Lutheran or specifically clergy, but I haven't read the articles thoroughly yet. --Robbie Giles 03:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Number of Synods

I noticed another wikipedian edited the ELCA's page to say it has 1 non-geographical synod and 65 geographical ones. However, it's apparent from the elca.org that the ELCA has 65 TOTAL synods. 1 is non-geographical and 64 are regional. Peace, ~Kruck 20:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Infalibillity vs Inerrency

I've created a new page entitled: Biblical infalibility. It links toEvangelical Lutheran Church in America at one point. The Lutheran church was at the center of this debate in the 70's and 80's and it would be great if any of oyu could help edit this page. Thanks! --DjSamwise 01:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Comparisons between ELCA and LCMS

The chart in the Beliefs and Practices section causes me concern. It is misleading in that it is excerpted from Augsburg Fortress, the ELCA publishing House, which has a bias against LCMS. Also, the comparisons just are not altogether accurate, and entirely too simplistic. For example, while ELCA scholarship subscribes to an extensive hermeneutic of Biblical Criticism, the LCMS puts much more of its resources and higher priority than the ELCA into research, academic rigor, and Christian Schools. Missouri tradition includes the prolific use of "higher criticism," so that assertion is just plain untrue. Also, LCMS excludes women from holding the offices of ordained ministry and the offices related to it, but not from anything else. The chart suggests otherwise. I want to float the idea of removing the chart altogether at this point, as it appears it doesn't contribute any information about the ELCA that isn't already there. Revcjconner 05:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I would argue that its a valid addition to this article, as the chart represents the ELCA's understanding of the dispute between itself and missouri; and as such is a helpful way to gain insight into the ELCA. Pastordavid 20:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'll just add a brief note then to reflect your insight. Revcjconner 02:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

I looked over the changes made to this article before it was correctly reverted, and it seems that we could take a look at tightening the article up on a couple of things that inappropriately changed- I'm assuming that there were specific reasons for what appear to be an emotional response in the vandal's edits. If the person who vandaled the article could be specific on the talk board of what set them off, it might help improve the article. Out of the changes, the one line that jumped out at me was the characterization of other Lutheran groups as "doctrinaire" or "pietistic"- loaded words that reflect a subjective point of view. There may well be other "trigger" phrases there that we could change. We might benefit from a discussion about how we can make changes that will be fair and objective to other religions. Anybody up for discussion about it? Revcjconner 22:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Another Problem I just noticed is the ELCA membership is 4.85 million, not 4.9 million, and certainly not 4.3 million, though other statistics show that about 29.68% of their overall membership is in church on any given Sunday, and the Secretary of the ELCA says that the figure of 29.68% reflects the percentage of active membership, which indicates about 1,439,747 active members. www.elca.org/news/releases.asp?a=3410 Revcjconner 22:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I just reverted the same vandalism to the article as last night. Afterwards, I did change the membership number to 4.85 and adjusted the reference date. I say we go with the published numbers of members of any denomination. It is comparing apples to apples and can be sourced. The terms active, communing, etc are not as standardized across denominations.

I noticed the article is tagged as needing sources where you question the use of pietistic and doctrinaire. I understand about doctrinaire, but I think pietistic is not pejorative. I would like to see reference to LCMS and WEL comparisons out of this section. We should describe the theology, etc., as it is presented in sources. It is what it is and can stand alone. Comparisons sometimes lead to contests about who is right and who is wrong. Let the LCMS and WEL articles describe their beliefs and practices in each article. If we want to start a conflagration, we can do an article contrasting the beliefs and practices of the differing Lutheran bodies. --Robbie Giles 03:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The unregistered user is still changing the article. I will place information on the talk page of the user asking them to join in the discussion. I see no reason to change the sourced information in the infobox. It is the official number given by the church for membership. If there are verifiable sources we can cite that show a different number, those can be included and that source listed. --Robbie Giles 12:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Other names considered in 1980s

I sent an email to elca.org/archives and got this response the second paragraph deals with fact the Eielsen Synod (which had a few churches in the 1980s) also used the name Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I think it would be nice to some of this info in the article but am not sure if an email is verifiable to use.

The Commission for a New Lutheran Church's Work Group on Legal Matters did a trademark searches for several names in 1985: Evangelical Lutheran Church, United Evangelical Lutheran Church, Lutheran Community of Christ, Lutheran Church of Evangelical Unity, and Lutheran Church in the USA. The lawyers found that Evangelical Lutheran Church and United Evangelical Lutheran Church were not clean titles and should not be used. By October 1985, the CNLC had selected two names, "Evangelical Lutheran Church in the U.S.A." and "Lutheran Church in the U.S.A.," for consideration by congregations. By 1986 "Evangelical Lutheran Church in America" had been chosen.

The Eielsen Synod never was an officially incorporated body recognized by either the states of Minnesota or Wisconsin, so legally there was no conflict. The Eielsen Synod also had never changed their constitution from the original 1846 one, so the name given there was in Norwegian, while the commonly used English-translation had quote marks around "Evangelical Lutheran Church" indicating that the "in America" was just a modifier and not part of the official name of the church body.

Smith03 19:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The Homosexuality Section

I am not sure that the story of Schmeling belongs here unless it is counterbalanced with the story of Anita Hill of St. Paul Reformation Lutheran church in Saint Paul MN. She is not a rostered ELCA pastor, but continues to serve an ELCA congregation. Her situation is different than Schmeling's because Bishop Mark Hanson actively strategized for her and pushed her candidacy (He helped to get her 6 appearances before the candidacy committee- which was unprecedented). Hanson was previously the Bishop of Saint Paul, but now the presiding Bishop of the ELCA.

So while the Schmeling story shows in some form the ELCA has enforced their rules, there are many more cases where they don't, in fact where top Bishops have lead the public charge to violate the standards for clergy expectations. I would recommend either elminating the Schmeling story, or adding the Anita Hill Story, for balance.

Revcjconner 01:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Brief question about worship styles section

Under the Worship styles section it reads that the color black is only worn for Ash Wednesday. It is my understanding that black is also used for Maundy Thursday and (especially) Good Friday worship. Could someone confirm prior to my making the update? 24.20.60.216 08:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)