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Military history: World War II Start‑class

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A fact from Nachtigall Battalion appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 November 2007. A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/November.

Wikipedia

Nachtigall Battalion

Article needs to be rewritten, otherwise it violates copyright because it is taken almost word for word from the Holocaust encyclopedia published by the Wiesental centre http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal.org/text/x16/xm1688.html . Bandurist 12:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I second that, it copies that source faithfully. Besides, there is very little information on the battalion itself, it seems to concentrate only on alleged atrocities. If that is the subject of the article, then it should be renamed or kept balanced without WP:UNDUE. As well, connection of Nachtigall to Khatyn has not been established. Please read the cited source carefully: it mentions a police battalion made up of Ukrainians and Belarusians, not Nachtigall. Let's keep this article well balanced and not turn it into another vehicle for Ukrainian bashing. --Hillock65 13:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No need to take anything personal, in fact it was carried out by a politsai battalion which was formed in Kiev, my mistake... So much for brotherly love nonetheless. --Kuban Cossack 13:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They are indeed, you missed the fact, that the majority of that unit were Belarusians themselves. Stick to the subject of the disscussion, please. --Hillock65 14:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite accoding to several sources. However you are right that the discussion is pointless, brother! --Kuban Cossack 14:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bandurist, do you mind reading WP:V and WP:RS? You have copied without attribution loads of material from answers.com. Answers.com is a Wikipedia mirror; the page is a copy of a now deleted Wikipedia entry Ukrainische Gruppe Nachtigall. Beit Or 19:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hillock65, what makes you think that galiciadivision.com is a reliable source? Beit Or 17:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I copied this reference from the Dechenais comission article. I was concerned primarily with the authentic Canadian document exhibited there. If this one of the ways to disrupt the article, it won't work. I will find the same document from another source. As well, please do not insert unsubstantiated claims into the text. Thanks. --Hillock65 18:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If such a document exists, it can be sourced to reliable sources; galiciadivision.com is not one of them. Then, what do you believe are "unsubstamtiated claims"? If you're talking about the sentence "On their way through Zolochiv and Ternopil to the area of Vinnytsya, Nachtigall troopers participated in pogroms against Jews.", then the reference is right after the next sentence. It's online, you can easily check it. Beit Or 22:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where does the Dechenais Commission mention the Nachtigall Battalion in their report? I was unable to find any instances. Beit Or 22:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing

Referencing to a Wikipedia mirror of a formerly deleted article at answers.com is unacceptable. Wikipedia, especially its deleted content, is not a reliable source. Further, Alfred-Maurice de Zayas is not a mainstream historian and is widely viewed controversial. Therefore, references made to him have to be reconfirmed to mainstream works. --Irpen 01:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't referenced to a Wikipedia mirror. This is an incorrect assumption of my colleague. Regarding de Zayas book. He is a historian. He is in the mainstream and notwithstanding criticism from a few historians, his works Nemesis at Potsdam and The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau were well received in the academic community, and are used in colleges and universities, and remain in print thirty years after their initial publication, in the 14th and 7th revised and updated editions, respectively". Bandurist 02:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your reference to answers.com is a reference to a Wikipedia mirror. Worse, it is a reference to a deleted article.

Zayas is widely viewed controversial and if his writings contradict those of other historians, he cannot be used.

Here are some refs from mainstream works:

"The [Nachtigall] was responsible for the massacre of thousands of Jews, Poles, and democratically minded Ukrainians in the Lviv region om the hills of the German invasion. The [Roland] assisted the Einsatzgruppen operating in the Souther Ukraine. Together, they served as an anitpartisan force in Belorussia where they murdered thousands of innocent villagers."

From Saul S. Friedman, "Holocaust Literature: A Handbook of Critical, Historical, and Literary Writings", Greenwood Press (1993), ISBN 0313262217, p. 287

"No sooner did the Nachtigal formation entered Lviv, than the killing began. Armed with a blacklist prepared by Oberländer, Bandera, Stesko and Shukhevych, death squads rounded up hundreds of suspected communists, Soviet functionaries, Polish scholars and Jewish intellectuals and put them against the wall. "

From Sol Littman, "Pure Soldiers Or Sinister Legion: The Ukrainian 14th Waffen-SS Division", Black Rose Books, 1993, ISBN 1551642182, p. 26

"To properly evaluate Nachtigall's role, one must be aware that after the unit left Lviv on July 7, it proceeded to Solochev, Ternopil, Prokurov, Zhytomyr and Vinnytsia. Terrible slaughters of civilian population followed their arrival in each of these towns."

From Sol Littman p. 30

"During the following days of chaos it became obvious to the Germans, that Bandera's followers, including those in the Nachtigall regiment, displayed considerable initiative, conducting purges and pogroms."

From Alexander Dallin, "German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945: A Study of Occupation Policies", Westview Press, 1981, ISBN 0865311021, p. 119

Now, please do not revert anymore to the whitewashing version. --Irpen 04:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 :"No sooner did the Nachtigal formation entered Lviv, than the killing began. Armed with a blacklist prepared by Oberländer, Bandera, Stesko and Shukhevych, death squads rounded up hundreds of suspected communists, Soviet functionaries, Polish scholars and Jewish intellectuals and put them against the wall. "
-::From Sol Littman,  "Pure Soldiers Or Sinister Legion: The Ukrainian 14th Waffen-SS Division", Black Rose Books, 1939, ISBN 1551642182, p. 26
+::From Sol Littman,  "Pure Soldiers Or Sinister Legion: The Ukrainian 14th Waffen-SS Division", Black Rose Books, 1993, ISBN 1551642182, p. 26
 :"To properly evaluate Nachtigall's role, one must be aware that after the unit left Lviv on July 7, it proceeded to Solochev, Ternopil, Prokurov, Zhytomyr and Vinnytsia. Terrible slaughters of civilian population followed their arrival in each of these towns."