Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Fraters Armigeri Hospitalis

What are we? Who knows? Only people that are aware that we have an inherited right to a position our ancestors once had.

Do we claim a certain nobility? To be honest, we don´t know as an 12 years correspondence with certain Institutes of Nobility can´t deliver any conclussion. Not an negative one,not an positive one.

Are we saying we are a order of knighthood? Absolutly not, as an esquire was always the servant to a knight.

Do we aim to gain money of people with an mimic order? Absolutly not, those who read our statutes even will see that this brotherhood will disolve itself if such a thing would happen.

Do we want to create a new kind of nobility? Absolutly not, those who read our statutes even will see that this brotherhood is open for everyone. So even if we would be recogniced in some kind of nobility, this honorable or rather historic title will disolve itself in a mather of time. Reason why? A honorable title is only of a value if a few have such a status and not a majority.

So what are we doing here than or why we have estahblished this brotherhood than? Please be patient as the conclussion to this is very much material and i will come to that in a moment if i still have your attention.

One Historian or rather Heraldic specialist here in Holland, called Rudolph Theodore Muschart (Prisma Encyclopedia van Heraldiek en Genealogie by Pama under burgerlijke wapens) counted in 1931 a 45.000 families here in Holland, who were entitled on a coat of arms and who´s ancestors were of an upperlayer of their society what you could call nobility or high class peasantry and were never recogniced by the Crown as nobility. That are much families, dont you think so?

Lets first concentrate on the United Kingdom of the Netherlands

We know that these families were named in the Province Holland Welgeboren the so named people of nobility that didn´t live like a noble anymore but still had certain rights that seperated him above others in a peasantry (In England we would place them under the Gentry. We had Eigenerfden and Hovetlingen (lastone later named Jonker) in the Provinces Friesland and Groningen, the first named would be placed under the yeoman class people in England and the last named under the Gentry. Than the Schildboortigen in the Provinces Gelderland, Overijssel and Utrecht, again the so named people of nobility that didn´t live like a noble anymore but still had certain rights that seperated him above others in a peasantry (Probably Gentry than). All with all it is not so strange that mr. Muschart came to such a big amount of people.

The thing is the Netherlands are not alone in this, the same thing you will see in the whole of Europe. Lets have a quick look just for fun by the country´s seperatly before we make our statement why we are here or what our aim is.

Germany In 1932 the Almanac de Gotha suddenly created a new class or kind of nobility called Uradel. The reason to this was that much families did appeal for a nobility that did grow out of the so called Ministerialen. This Ministerialen did grow out of service man, a lower kind of officials that are named by Eike von Repkow in his Sachsenspiegel under the 5th and 6th heerschild. Under those families you would find people that would be classed in England under the Yeoman and Gentry families but even the Peasantry. Otherwise said Germany also was suddenly confronted with families that did stoodup for their inherited right who did appear in historic sources but are hard to classify.

England Yes such people were and are in England to. We know for a fact that in the 17th century the Heraldic officers had a hard time to seperate a Yeoman family from a Gentry family. Often this is explained by Historians by the fact that an Gentry had to spent more money to his position and a Yeoman by this could be richer by what their were often marriaged between those two ranks. Also both were entitled to a coat of arms. As the yeoman class is considerd to be of the peasantry. The Gentry who from the 15th century already appear as a own class is considered to be of a kind of landed nobilty, people who had the right on the office and who were styled Esquire. If we look back to the groups both came from before the Normandian Invasion, we see that although both groups were seperated they formed one class. A middleclass of people, who both could have the office of an knight of obligation. Basically the last thing is just the title of an lower official. The gentry as the lowest of the nobility and the geneatas (from what the yeoman did grow historically) as highest of the peasantry. A certain class of people who both had to give support to the Knights and were obiedient to them.

In France, Italy, Russian and so on we find these class of people under different names; like Homme de lineage (man of lineage) and Gens de arms (weapon or arms descent) and so on. People from who´s some of the descendants entered and were recogniced as nobility and some just not. I could go on naming all those diiferent variations like; Patricians or Patriciers, Wehrbauer, Erbherren, Scholtenboeren, Dienstmannen, Armigeri, Sergeants, Meliores, and so on and you all will get bored to death. If it already doesn´t happen now, so let´s not go on at this stadium to go deeper in it.

If someone of such a descendant today would apply by his or her country to be recogniced in a certain nobility, they will be faced with the fact that the Institution of that Country will not be able to make a choise They can´t deny a certain dignity to those ancestors but neither they can´t place them as in most country´s today a knight is the lowest title. Often the answer will be; ok, your ancestors was noble but it seems they lost that dignity so your are not. Or we can´t really say where we have to place your ancestors, or......... who knows...... End conclusion what a person will see is that those Institions will not deny it and neither will recognice it.

But than now a phylisofical question, how can something that was a inherited right of an family suddenly be gone?

Or why even should their be a dispute about it?

Does an inherited right not mean that your already have it and that you have asked nobody his or her permission to use it or even that they are able to deny it?

So thats the purpose of our Entity (and yes sadly enough on this moment only 16 people) to be recogniced in that inherited right, the right of our ancestors and therefor our own right. Does that mean we want to be recogniced as nobility, i don´t know, we don´t know. All that we know is that our ancestors were those inherited esquires that are difficault to place by history but were you see every where the proof from, are they nobility than let them be, if not than not but at least if we gain what we want our ancestors are not a vannished or forgotten group anymore and we finnally have an conclussion Anyway thats why nobody of our group is ever entitled and even forbidden to ask money for our services as the entitled right to our group is already there.

Why the history about the order of malta or knights hospitaler on our page? Or why even at first basis bind us historicaly to them as an group? Good Question, somewhere you have to make a choise, In the project we are busy with we have the aim at least to map all the families on the Old Commandry´s of this Order who hold this dignity, otherwise if you would like to map all those descendants of this class families, the project would be to large. Somewhere you have to make the mark, no?

If we have all those families listed we will approach all those institutes of the world, the institutions of nobility, but also the different order´s of saint john, the order of malta and even the holy see. Maybe we are still 16 members, hopefully not as we hope those descendants of those old commanderies will join by what we have less research. But if we are still 16 than those 16 will represent at least all those people that are mentioned on the list.

To be honest the reason why also the order of malta is envolved is that two families relate back to this order. It also concludes that part of the Order his History is ours, as inside of that order they were those Sergeant at Arms.

Conclussion; we are not a order of knighthood and neither claiming to be although regarding our project we have the historic binding with this order. We are just a brotherhood or rather repressantives of families that once did belong to a certain group and did hold the inherited right on that group. Because of that right we can´t ask membershipfee or will ask on another way for money as bassically every descendant of such a family is automatically already a member. We are just people who did stick out our heads to make a statement; the statement of we are here, we have an inherited right and we don´t like that such a thing is denied or just overlooked at

If this article should be deleted than that is the case, no problem with that, but it should not be deleted based on wrong opinions. So this is who we are and no, we have nothing to do with one secret society, one scary christian or mansonic organisation, personal i don´t believe even in such a thing, neither do some of the other member, if their would be such a thing like that Da Vinci code, i think my or rather our ancestors would have kindly passed it on to the next generations

So this is who we are, nothing more, nothing less, just people who will have the next comming years almost no free time thanx to the project and the task they given themselves

Do you want to believe in us?? It sound a contradiction, why otherwise defend our inherited right, but no you don´t have to believe in us as an group or even if we are serious in this. What is importend, is that we believe in it. The believe in ourselves to finnish what we started. That one day we can and will, approach again those Institutions we named, but than as an Entity. Confront them with our research where on this moment sadly enough is not specialistic research already made and we only find remanends or echo´s in other works and to see what the conclussion will be.

Maybe the same, maybe not... At least we made an Statement, as we did here. With kindest Regards.....