User talk:24.19.33.82: Difference between revisions
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==Unprotection== |
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I have unprotected this talkpage following some discussion with other parties in this matter. I have also unprotected [[WP:ANI]] - I would take it as a sign of good faith on your part for you not to post there while we are discussing matters here. I have at no stage been convinced that you are MyWikiBiz however I have been concerned by some of your conduct since then. If I am to unblock you, which I am willing to do, it must be on condition that disruption ceases. I suspect the difficulty will be in everyone agreeing what is and isn't disruption here. If you were to unblocked, what edits would you be making? <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 16:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Not many, probably. This unwelcome conflict has sucked a lot of life out of me. If I edit again in the shrt term it will be for uncontroversial mainspace changes and discussions on policy pages related to privacy issues. In the longer term who knows?[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 07:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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: I am sorry for drawing the potentially incorrect conclusions that you were somebody else, or that you were proxying for somebody else. Trustworthy people have reassured me that is not the case, based on what you told them. I hope you will agree to be unblocked and cease causing disruption. If so, I will take no further interest in your affairs so long as you refrain from involving yourself in mine. - [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 16:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::I anticipate having no reason to complain about you or to use proxies once I'm unblocked.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 06:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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As a starting point for discussion, I would propose: |
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#Not editing the talkpages of Durova or Jehochman |
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#Not emailing either of those users without prior invitation |
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#To disclose your account (either to those involved, or to some mutually agreeable admins who could ensure this agreement is followed) |
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#That neither Durova nor Jehochman deal with you in their roles as admins (either as this IP or your account) |
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#No further use of open proxies |
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#To let this matter go and not raise it again at ANI or other pages you have posted to |
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#If you have future concerns you wish to raise about Durova or Jehochman, run them past another administrator first - e.g. myself or <s> [[User:Sarah]] </s> |
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Are those terms acceptable? <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::All of those are very acceptable except disclosing my account. This shouldn't be required to edit as an anonymous IP. |
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::Along with me letting it go, I'd like Durova, Jehochman and whoever else to let it go, stop trying to figure out who I am, pressuring anyone to betray me, or preparing sanctions against whatever username I might have. |
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::You can see in the history that I didn't seek them or drama, they came to me, and I'll be happy when they go away.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 06:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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: All except the last one are acceptable to me. Sarah refuses to talk to me. Choose an uninvolved administrator, please. - [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 16:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::OK, we'll stike Sarah for now. I dunno if I'd be acceptable to 24.19.33.82 but perhaps we can come up with a list of suitable people. 24.19.33.82 - how does this proposal seem to you? <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 16:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I like Sarah but it sounds like she doesn't like being in the middle of this. If Durova and Jehochman leave me in peace, I don't see why I'd have any further concerns about them besides what I've already expressed. The need for a designated mediator presupposes a continuing struggle, in which I've no interest.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 07:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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<s>:24, I think that Will's proposal is very fair and I personally support it as a reasonable way to end this disruption to the project. Please do consider accepting these terms. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 16:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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</s> |
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: I am not keen to have an angry editor stalking me. He knows who I am, but I don't know his main account. As part of the settlement, I need to know who this is so I can protect myself. I am willing to keep this information confidential. - [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 16:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Perhaps we could have a workaround where a third party (or several) was aware of 24.19.33.82's account name so as to make sure he was sticking to the bargain. I agree it would be difficult if no one knows. As well as the potential risk of 24.19.33.82 using his account to duck the agreement, there'd also be the problem of other accounts being wrongly accused of being 24.19.33.82 in future. So we are going to need some transparency. <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 16:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::That works for me. We have 1300+ administrators. Surely we can agree on a few neutral parties. Naturally, there's a chance I could act against the main account for some other reason because I won't know which one it is. - [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 17:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Jehochman, you don't have a "need to know" this person's identity. If some account stalks you, then deal with that account appropriately. People here have a right to anonymity. [[User:Videmus Omnia|Videmus Omnia]] [[User talk:Videmus Omnia| <sup>Talk</sup> ]] 16:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Your support has heartened me, Videmus Omnia. That's what I'm saying, too. People here have a right to anonymity.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 06:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Jehochman, the only thing you ever had to protect yourself against was discussion of your block. If you block people, you're going to have to get used to those. If we both move along as if this never happened eveything will be fine. All this paranoia about me breaking the deal and stalking you with socks is…paranoia. The only thing you have is my word anyway so you may as well take it.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 07:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Anyway, I think we really need 24.19.33.82's feedback on this before we can progress the discussion further. <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 16:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Well it seems that agreement is unlikely as far as revealing the account name is concerned and there is no way to compel such agreement. It seems then that the best arrangement possible requires some amount of trust on both sides. I do understand that neither side has much reason to trust the other. |
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#24.19.33.82 will not edit the talkpages of Durova or Jehochman using his regular or any other account/IP |
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#24.19.33.82 will not email Durova or Jehochman without prior invitation |
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#Durova and Jehochman to take no further steps to discover the regular account used by 24.19.33.82 |
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#24.19.33.82 will not pursue this matter further using his regular or any other account/IP |
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#No further use of open proxies |
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Such a compromise would be far from ideal but does allow everyone to move on and put this behind them. <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 11:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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* Fine with me. The editor is welcome to contact me, so long as the dialog is polite. - [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 12:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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* I agree. And Durova?[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 15:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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I'm concerned that you'd leave yourself open to [[joe job]]s. You've posted that IP address from TOR nodes a lot of times. And I've received candidate questions about this. I answered them on the good faith assumption that some troll had spoofed you. Now that I know differently, I'm in a very awkward position. Especially if any more follow-up questions arrive. So I'll agree to this proposal because I want the ordeal to end, but it may very well be that this doesn't end it. |
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The other day I made a mistake and I owned up to it and extended apologies. If you come clean on one of the administrative boards, I'll accept an apology promptly and ask for early thread closure. Then everyone can put this behind us. |
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Otherwise, if a TOR node posts in the same pattern again, I'll investigate again. I haven't checked the headers on those e-mails, but I could. If someone asks me another follow-up question on this topic I won't lie. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 18:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Durova, are you saying that your block of this IP as a MyWikiBiz sock was in error, and that your real reason for maintaining the block was TOR posting? Shouldn't the block log be amended to state that? [[User:Videmus Omnia|Videmus Omnia]] [[User talk:Videmus Omnia| <sup>Talk</sup> ]] 18:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Videmus Omnia, I believe that when a situation is sufficiently lopsided, the right thing to do is for the person who made the greatest error to step forward and accept responsibility without pointing any fingers. That's what I did the other day. No one had to ask me to do it and I had no guarantee the apology would be accepted. I think that earns me the right to ask this. And I do think it would make things simpler on everyone. The arbitration committee went through a lot of headaches over this. An administrator stuck her neck way out for this editor. Don't they deserve to be let off the hook? <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 21:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::::I notice that you didn't answer the question. [[User:Videmus Omnia|Videmus Omnia]] [[User talk:Videmus Omnia| <sup>Talk</sup> ]] 23:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::::"I believe that when a situation is sufficiently lopsided, the right thing to do is for the person who made the greatest error to step forward and accept responsibility without pointing any fingers." |
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::::That person would be you, Durova. You blocked me for three months based on bogus "secret information," which I doubt even exists, then you did everything you could to cover it up. Now you're accusing Videmus Omnia of "harassment" for challenging your random block, just like you accused me. I respected you once. I thought it was a good idea that there was someone like you out there catching the bad guys with "complex investigations." I don't need to tell you what I think of all this now. If you can't find it in you to apologize for abusing your authority and for abusing me IP, then thank you for finally unblocking me, per our deal, I'll avoid weighing in on your desysoping, and we've nothing more to discuss. |
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::::<blockquote>It's important to weigh evidence critically and get each decision right[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2007/Candidate_statements/Durova&diff=prev&oldid=168415717] </blockquote> |
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::::[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 06:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::I trust WJBscribe to amend the block log if that is necessary. We need not concern ourselves with that detail. We have a deal. Let's not stir up more controversy. - [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 18:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:"I haven't checked the headers on those e-mails, but I could." |
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:I'm amazed, Durova, that with all that's being said on your ANI subpage, you'd choose to say something like this. |
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:If '''I''' come clean '''you'll''' accept an apology? You're the one who blocked me based on bogus finding that I was MyWikiBiz, and you want '''me''' to apologize to you?[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 18:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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24.19.33.82 calm down. Durova has now unblocked you. She didn't say that apology was conditonal, just that it might be a way to tie up lose ends. It would as she points out be very easy for an ill-meaning third party to pretend to be you using Tor. Whether you decide to do that is your choice. <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 18:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Thank you for pointing the way to a reasoned resolution of this matter, WJBscribe. I'll now try to forget about all this. Cheers, all.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 18:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Good luck in the future, and hopefully you don't run into any more problems like this. I hope this hasn't soured you on whole Wikipedia experience. [[User:Videmus Omnia|Videmus Omnia]] [[User talk:Videmus Omnia| <sup>Talk</sup> ]] 18:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, to be clear. My acceptance of WJBscribe's offer is unconditional. He has my gratitude for working through this very difficult situation. To the IP, I think it's in everyone's best interests to tie up the loose ends. Yours too: if you step forward now you have a guarantee of easy resolution. I wish, though, that you had just followed [[User_talk:Durova/Archive_37#User:NearestAvailableNewt|this example]]. I'm easy to work with if you just shoot straight with me. The fellow behind MyWikiBiz follows me all over the Internet. He probably Googles my name daily. The course you took here rather deepened my suspicions that you had proxied for him. He's rather proactive about contacting people, and he's persuasive if you don't look into things too deeply. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 21:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::::If by "shoot straight with you" you mean tell you the truth, that's what I did from the beginning. You didn't listen. If you mean disclose private information to you, the answer is no. You don't get to build dossiers on people by randomly accusing them of being banned users, then asking them to prove who they really are.[[Special:Contributions/24.19.33.82|24.19.33.82]] ([[User talk:24.19.33.82|talk]]) 07:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC) |
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