Talk:Wrestling

History

The article provides brief mention of some well-known accounts from ancient history. What about accounts from later periods -- medieval, early modern, and so on? To keep this introduction manageable in size, one possibility would be to use this page as a starting place, and then link to whole new pages entitled, for example, "Wrestling in the Ancient World," "Wrestling in the Medieval World," and so on. Joseph Svinth 08:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

First, I want to commend you on the time and work you put into the article; the content and grammer contributions were substantial.

(POV warning) - I believe the inclusion of historical accounts of 'wrestling' after the word 'wrestling' was inserted into the English language (1100 AD) not necessary. Wrestling is a very difficult concept to define in wikipedia because the topic is so broad and the concept is so old. To give the article scope and direction, I believe the litmus test for the insertion of historical accounts of wrestling to be whether they occurred before or after the word 'wrestling' was acknowledged and accepted into the English Language. Historical accounts prior to 1100 AD(ish) were considered historical accounts that shaped the word 'wrestling'. Historical accounts after 1100 AD(ish) were considered historical accounts derived from the word 'wrestling'; and these later examples should be covered in their respective folk wrestling article. This approach allowed the article to avoid the slippery slope of deciding which modern accounts of wrestling (which there are a lot) should or should not be included in the article. International disciplines of wrestling were exempt from this rule. Penciljunk 12:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no trouble with your viewpoint. I was just thinking that "Wrestling," per se, should say something like "Wrestling is a combat sport done worldwide by most cultures. It is a sport usually done by two opponents in an agreed-upon area. Techniques usually feature gripping, throwing, and holding down, but usually discourage kicks, punches, and headbutts. Wrestling can be done nearly naked (Nuba fighting), nearly naked with belts (sumo), with jackets and belts (sambo and judo), or with special wrestling costumes (schwingen). In traditional society, wrestling events are often associated with Festival (e.g., Duesshera, Muharram, Carnival, harvest festivals, and equivalent events). Wrestling events have also been associated with competitions between individuals or institutions wealthy enough to afford teams of wrestlers (e.g., Mughul wrestling, Tokugawa-era sumo, and US collegiate freestyle), muscular theater (e.g., professional wrestling), nationalism (e.g., Turnvereine and the International Olympics), and military training (military combatives)." In other words, this entry should provide a dictionary-style definition (admittedly, a contentious task in itself), and then promptly move out to appropriately brief discussions of the internationally recognized types. In this scenario, Folkstyle would be reduced to linking to a separate page that provides the FILA definition, that links to all known folkstyle types listed at Wikipedia. As for History, I'd eliminate Ancient, too, and move it to another section called "Histories of Wrestling" or some such, and then, from there link to articles on Wrestling in the Ancient World, Wrestling in Medieval Guild Associations, Wrestling in Mughul India, Wrestling in the Turnvereine, or whatever. That way, if you're interested in Beach Wrestling, you won't get bogged down in tedious discussions of what distinguishes Ar Gouren from Scottish backhold, whereas if you are interested in what distinguishes Ar Gouren from Scottish backhold, then you have a starting place for further reading and research. Joseph Svinth 02:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You make some valid points. I really like your first few statements prior to sentence starting with In this scenario.... There is some good general concepts that would greatly benefit the article. Maybe it is late and I am tired, but how does the sentence In this scenario,... differ from what the article looks like now? And could you also expand on getting rid of the 'ancient' concept, I may not be following your train of thought. Penciljunk 02:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

What I'm thinking is that "Wrestling" becomes a portal page that provides a brief (albeit potentially contentious) definition of wrestling itself, links to the major styles (e.g., the styles recognized by FILA plus professional wrestling) and then provides links to other portal pages and/or topics of related interest. Let's take an example. Assume, for the moment, that you are interested in Tudor-era sports and games, to include wrestling. Elizabethan Era gives the topic a passing mention, and that's it. And, as you correctly note, Wrestling has no place for that story. But, were there to be a separate page specifically titled "Early Modern European Wrestling" (or some catchier title), then there would be a place to mention that famous wrestling match between Kings Francis and Henry (French sources report Francis won), or at least link to Cornish wrestling (the style of Henry VIII)[1] and Ar Gouren (the style of Francis). [2]. As for what happens after "in this scenario"? Basically, nothing. The article would simply go straight from "Etymology" to "Wrestling Disciplines". Then, at the bottom, there would be a new subhead called "Wrestling History". Underneath that, a paragraph is inserted that says, for example, that wrestling has been practiced almost everywhere in the world, for about as long as anybody has been writing stories or making artwork, and then links to a currently non-existant Wikipedia page called "Wrestling History" or equivalent title. The new "Wrestling History" page in turn becomes the portal page for articles specifically about the history and traditions of wrestling, either by time period ("Early Modern", "Ancient", etc.) or by individual folkstyle. I know, most of those pages don't exist yet (and the ones that do require lots of work), but this way, at least we're acknowledging that we are aware of the problem.Joseph Svinth 07:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Changes 7/31/2007

This is my first time editing a wikipedia page. I am an unapologetic wrestling nerd, so I wanted to help clean up the article just a bit. Here are the noteworthy changes:

• Inserted an explanation of the new Greco-Roman rules. Not sure if this is important in context, but the recent rule changes are among the most radical in the last few decades and dramatically alter the focus of this sport, for athletes, coaches, and fans alike.

• Removed references to prominent freestyle wrestlers. While Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson are American wrestling icons, their freestyle careers were relatively brief, and I have never in my wrestling life heard of James Owen.

• Deleted the wrestling in military training section.

• Added a brief explanation addressing the boundary between professional wrestling from the other types.

• Revamped the wrestling/MMA section.

Since I am new to this, I am not sure how to deal with formatting. I am hoping someone can come in behind me and cover anything I screwed up in that department.

As one of humanity's basic instincts and enduring traditions, I think wrestling really deserves a quality, informative page.

I think you made some good additions, be sure to sign your name by ending your comments (on the edit page) with four consecutive tildes "~". Penciljunk 15:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I am an unapologetic wrestling nerd as well and I didn't realize how vast the topic of 'wrestling' really is. The structure I thought worked best for this article was to have two parts; 'Wrestling' as it was defined prior to the English Language and 'Wrestling' as it was defined in the English speaking world. Keep up the good work! Penciljunk 15:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Folk Style Wrestling Diciplines

The header contains this text

There are almost as many folk wrestling styles as there are national traditions, because folk wrestling describes a traditional form of wrestling unique to a culture or geographic region of the world. Folk wrestling styles are not yet recognized Internationally. The following list provides examples of wrestling systems that fall into this category.

Then the table then includeds Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as a 'folk style'. There are international BJJ compertitions so how does that work? --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 12:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe the qualifier for a Wrestling dicipline to be promoted from a folk-style dicipline to an International dicipline is left in the hands of the International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles, or equavalent governing body should one arise. Penciljunk 15:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It might be worth clarifying that these are FILA's standards not definitive ones then. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 16:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It is noted. Penciljunk 17:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I just added it, but didn't have time to update here sorry. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 08:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Why you are here Nate1481, under International Styles of Wrestling there is a link to both submission wrestling and grappling. Because the grappling page does not support the the definition being used here in wrestling, it makes things a little confussing. Do you have any qualms with removing the reference to the grappling page? Or maybe we should move the reference to the grappling page to the bottom under 'see other'? Penciljunk 17:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It does note the definition used by FILA (just bellow the main section of the lead) but doesn't have it a main theme as that definition is far more restrictive. Some note on the link that there are other definitions of grappling would be a good idea, for clarity, but removing the link would seem inaccurate--Nate1481( ^t/_c) 08:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC).

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of August 15, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: No, the lead is too short, please see WP:LEAD for help.

2. Factually accurate?: Slightly no, there are some {{fact}} tags and many sections have no citations at all.

3. Broad in coverage?: No, history section is way too short in my opinion, what about wrestling from the Roman Empire-present? Discipline subsections need to be expanded, information can be found in their main articles.

4. Neutral point of view?: No, sentences like "Wrestling has gained respect among martial arts practitioners" and "Wrestling's popularity has grown so much that market demands for staged wrestling" without citations are POV. There is US centric POV by mentioning folk styles used in the US but not going in depth about the styles from other countries.

5. Article stability? Yes

6. Images?: No, images need to be formatted better as to not make the article look cluttered.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — T Rex | talk 02:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Auto review

Things to work on... The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
• If there is not a free use image in the top right corner of the article, please try to find and include one.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:What is a featured article?, Images should have concise captions.^[?]
• There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.^[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 205 pound, use 205 pound, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 205 pound.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?]
• There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
  • arguably
  • apparently
  • is considered
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).^[?]
• As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]^[?]
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Nate1481( ^t/_c) 14:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Obvious one I can see is the info box would {{Infobox_martial_art}} work? --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 15:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)