Talk:Cannabis (drug)

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October 19th, 2007 -- Need major revert!

First of all, if an admin reads this, please semi-protect the page! It's getting nuts over here. Secondly, I just realized there is a lot of vandalism that did not get rolled back. We need either a major revert, or someone to go over the article with a fine-toothed comb. This article is totally screwed-up right now. --Jaysweet 17:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't. A lot of vandalism is by registered users and would not be affected. A lot of good edits are made by unregistered IPusers. The edits of two editors who have now been blocked have been fixed. It got a little crazy for a few minutes when one editor would revert back to a messed up version, but it's all good now. 199.125.109.99 01:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

better introduction.

the introduction to be rewritten so that what the average well-informed person thinks when hearing "marijuana" is shared for those who might not know. Wikipedia is supposed to be written for the GENERAL READER.

At a minimum, the introductory paragraph should state Marijuana with respect to:

• Popular culture, noting predominance compared with Alcohol, Cigarettes
• The huge dichotomy between e.g. hippie users, and the federal crackdown on Marijuana.
• The role in media, esp. as the subject of popular films such as Cheech and Chong.
• the basic questions: who what where when how why

WHO uses it (demographic information)? WHERE? HOW? WHAT do they do with it, WHAT form do they use marijuana in, WHEN (social events, etc), and importantly WHY.

Basically, anyone reading this talk page can think for a few seconds about what "marijuana" means, and NONE of this is reflected in a balanced way in the introductory paragraph. It's just written in an incompetent way. Also, cannabis is much better-known as marijuana and per wikipedia guidelines should be under that name.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.98.37.179 (talk • contribs)

Editor, please sign your posts with 4 tildas like so: ~~~~. If you wish to rewrite the lead, be bold and to do, keeping in mind what guidelines are for introductory paragraphs. Please see WP:LEAD. The lead should be a concise summary of the article and a stand-alone paragraph. Importantly, with respect to the content you propose, there should be no original research. Anything written should have a source unless included later in the article.--Loodog 17:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

In addition, there are actually five different distinct uses of cannabis as a drug. While they are called kef, dagga, bhang, ganja, hashish (or charas) and marijuana, these are actually five distinctly different uses of cannabis as a drug. While all five have a common plant origin and share the same active ingredient, they vary dramatically in potency and region where used. It would be helpful to provide a better clarification of the differences. 199.125.109.99 23:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Slang

Where does slang go? Dictionary? Separate article? 199.125.109.53 14:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

How much slang are we talking about? If we are speaking of a couple hundred words (and, especially, if you wnat to define each of them) I think we might need a sub-article. If you are thinking of a list of fifty to sixty slang terms for cannabis, we can put the list (with three to four columns) in this article. Ursasapien (talk) 08:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Cannabis
• Marijuana
• Pot
• Weed
• Dope
• Herb
• Tree(s)
• Doobie
• Shake
• Chronic
• Hy(dro)
• Sticky
• Shake
• Bud
• Haze
• Reefer
• Grass
• Mary Jane
• Ganga
• Spliff
• Puff
• Green
• Tea

I strongly disapprove of the inclusion of slang words, they have been removed before and the consensus was they go elsewhere, not in this encyclopedia. There are hundreds of local slang words. Thanks, SqueakBox 05:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Slang = slur

Many of the slang words, like "dope" (opiate?), "pot" ("hot"?) are pejorative self-fulfilling fallacies, unfair to youngsters interested in learning the truth about Riefer (note reformed spelling). They serve a tobacco industry agenda, which seeks to defame the alternative herb and protect the teetering overdose drug empire.

Nomenclature should follow appropriate use

The title of the article Cannabis (drug) is itself biased and defamatory. If someone drowned in an overdose of water you would not say water is a drug. To hide their cannabis, misinformed users unfortunately roll it in a hot-burning overdose "joint", in abject slave imitation of what the tobacco industry promotes in its dictatorial advertising aimed at maximizing profits (700-mg. cigaret).

Overdose smoking equipment is obsolete

An article such as this one should remind readers that there is an alternative to hot-burning overdose "joint", "blunt" (with addictive nicotine in the cover) and wide-bowl "bongs" and "chillums" sold at head shops. You can make your own appropriate-sized utensil for 25-mg. servings out of a quarter-inch (6 mm.) socket wrench, a long flexible tube and a little screen (anti-overdose minitoke utensil).

Traditional but appropriate-- and that's saying something

a. The kiseru, made in Japan for centuries, is a long-stem pipe with a crater small enough to serve 25-mg. tokes if you use a tight-nesting screen. See Wikipedia article "kiseru". Cannabis was legal in Japan for centuries until 1948 when tobacco addict asshole Gen. Douglas MacArthur rewrote the Japanese constitution banning it.

b. The midwakh (see Wikipedia article "Smoking Pipe"), made in the middle-east, is shorter-stemmed but you can add a long flexible tube like those found on hookahs. It is returning to popularity in Dubai as smoking prohibitions were recently passed and youngsters try to hide their smoking.

Researchers fear Big Tobacco, drag feet on equipment studies

It has been known for decades that a hot-burning overdose cigaret burns at 1500 degrees F (860 C) at the tip when a victim is "puffing" on it. All that's needed now is a study of the temperature when properly sifted herb burns in a quarter-inch enclosed crater while user sucks as slow as possible getting all the smoke (proposed definition of "to toke"). Compare this temperature with bigger diameters-- dime, nickel, quarter etc.-- and with the hot-burning overdose "joint", "blunt", cigaret.

Of course they're afraid if they find out the truth about this and try to publish it, they'll lose funding, accreditation, etc. But if someone does-- and the temperature difference will be dramatic!!-- the Wikipedia article on Cannabis smoking (or whatever title) should hurriedly report it. It is one thing to proudly boast that you are trying to "change the world" and another thing to hide timidity behind slogans like "Neutral point of view" and "Objectivity" while the No. 1 genocide in world history "rolls" on.

Apology of a natural-born coward

Well, I respect you guys who sign your names and have User Pages, but just being realistic I am writing this from a downtown anonymous library computer. A conspiracy (i.e. Big Tobacco) which casually "snuffs" 5 million of its loyal customers a year might get nasty if it saw a chance to track down a real enemy. Good night and good luck.66.99.1.247 (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Health issues

I feel that this information provided in this recent Scientific American article should be added to the Health issues section.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=1C689A0B-E7F2-99DF-3EDEF1E265E6006C&chanID=sa007

Please sign your comments and do not refactor or delete others comments. Ursasapien (talk) 08:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

So you would like a statement to the effect that smoking tobacco and marijuana together is more harmful than smoking marijuana alone? Ursasapien (talk) 08:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

is the use of italics on the word rumoured really required? also alleged or suggested would be better words as scientist don't create "rumours".--220.253.111.199 (talk) 12:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Added a few scientific journal points here as it was a bit short and lop sided --Hypo Mix (talk) 13:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted your entry regarding the addictive qualities of marijuana, because the article you cite does not mention such a thing, nevermind any other recent study on the addictive qualities of marijuana. There are also other statements in your edits in the Health Issues section that I believe should be revised, but I am not bold enough or well informed enough to do so. DonES (talk) 07:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

yes it was page 1613 "...than tobacco smoking alone, and the effect of both types of smoking was additive.15" and ::"A cannabis dependence syndrome characterised by an inability to abstain from or to control cannabis use."

I didn't make it up heh, could some one reinstate it? i've never done done it before.

Also everything i added to this section was all published in multiple scientific journals, so im not pushing propaganda.--Hypo Mix (talk) 11:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. I added a slightly reworded version. Ursasapien (talk) 12:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Evidently I did not look hard enough. However, there is no mention of addictive qualities of marijuana. Only of the potential for a chemical dependency. I've reworded it(poorly) to reflect that. There are other entries which seem to use "dependence syndrome" and "addictive characteristics" interchangeably. I'm not sure that this is accurate. DonES (talk) 20:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

works for me. yeah i think the articals are saying there is addictive qualities *and* the dependance syndrome, i dont know what the differences are however. --Hypo Mix (talk) 00:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The article never actually uses the term "addictive". I was referring to the wiki article's usage of "addiction". However, the research and semantics regarding psychological and physiological addictions are somewhat inconclusive(as far as I can tell). There's a discussion regarding this and how it applies to marijuana here. In the meantime, until some sort of consistent meaning behind the term "addiction" is established, as well as some more concrete research is done, I'd like to refrain from using it. DonES (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Cannabis smoking has not been shown to cause lung cancer, http://www.webmd.com/lung-cancer/news/20060523/pot-smoking-not-linked-to-lung-cancer. The active ingredient in cannabis has been shown to decrease the size of lung tumors, http://www.webmd.com/lung-cancer/news/20070417/marijuana-may-fight-lung-tumors. I do not see any sources given for the statement that cannabis has been linked to lung cancer. This Health Issues section seems biased. Jrod2008 (talk) 15:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree; the statement should probably be reworded. Also, this came out the other day as well. DonES (talk) 19:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

the article says "Cannabis has been associated with lung cancer" not that it causes it (ie: evidence but not overwhelming evidence). (unless some one has already changed it to this, then never mind). Also most chemicals inhaled generally cause cancer to some extent, so evidence of it is probably around.Hypo Mix (talk) 10:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Cannabis smoking is not associated with lung cancer, read the links that were provided. There are indeed chemicals in cannabis smoke that are carcinogins. The THC in marijuana seems to have anti-tumor properties and that is believed to be the reason why cannabis is not associated with cancer. If it were consumed in a manner other than smoking there would be no carcinogens. There are three links above that give valid evidence of this. So it would be appreciated if the propaganda was removed, it looks like a DARE officer wrote this article. Wikipedia should provide information that is supported by evidence, not statements that are contradictory to it, or supported by evidence that is "probably around." Jrod2008 (talk) 20:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

just to clarify I just offered a suggestion not an argument. the below link shows a journal artical that shows smoking pot dosn't cause lung cancer, although it does point out that it may increase the incidence of site specific cancers, but i wont bother championing this as i don't know much about it.Hypo Mix (talk) 10:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

also, deleted the line "Cannabis has been associated with lung cancer" as all of the 4 articles mentioned said the reverse.Hypo Mix (talk) 10:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you should clarify that Dr. Donald Tashkin study proves how marijuana doesn't increase chances of lung cancer at all. A whole interview with the doctor is on youtube, just type "marijuana lung cancer study" or you can find the article at http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0002491F-755F-1473-B55F83414B7F0000

Unlock?

Why can't I edit this page, even after registering and logging in? There are many sections that can be improved or corrected. For example, the paragraph that deals with correlations between cannabis use and psychosis seems to contradict the page on health issues and the effects of cannabis, and the page cited for a 2% increased risk does not mention a 2% increase anywhere in the article. It seems to suggest that there is a consensus on the link between cannabis and psychosis, when in fact there are several conflicting studies that have come to opposite conclusions (I think the "health effects" page previously mentioned does a far better job covering this topic). BlackHoleSon (talk) 02:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page. It was semi-protected, which "disables editing from anonymous users and registered accounts less than four days old", explaining why you could not edit. Give it your best shot now. — Scientizzle 03:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This article is off. As far as I'm aware, the only consensus formed in the psychological/psychiatric community is that there is a correlation between psychosis and cannabis, not that cannabis causes psychosis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.30.80 (talk) 07:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"in its herbal form"

This was discussed a year or two ago, but it needs to be re-addressed again. I strenuously object to the suggestion that marijuana only refers to cannabis "in its herbal form." Although (like ganja) the term is not used in every part of the world, it refers to the dried buds and leaves and to the drug cannabis in general; it is employed in both formal and informal speech. To use just two examples:

• a publication by the US military describes hashish as a "Concentrated form of marijuana by compressing marijuana resins into small blocks."[1].
• A academic research center describes "marijuana" as a drug that comes in various forms, not as a specific form of cannabis. [2]

On 19 October 2007, I edited[3] the lead sentence to read as follows:

Cannabis, also known as marijuana[1] or ganja,[2] is a psychoactive product

The inline reference I included links to the Compact Oxford Dictionary which defines marijuana simply as "Cannabis."

This lasted untouched for about six weeks. Then...

• Squeakbox, while attempting to undo vandalism, reverted the lead sentence as follows[4]:

Cannabis, known as marijuana[1] or ganja[2] in its herbal form and hashish in its resinous form,[3]

• OrangeMike (unintentionally?) reverted the sentence to the same, while attempting to undo vandalism.[5]

I'm unsure whether these editors are denying that marijuana and cannabis are synonyms, but if someone wishes to revert the lead sentence, I'd appreciate it if they'd explain their reasoning. Thanks. --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 17:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

We are not interested in what marijuana refers to, perhaps that might be appropriote on a disambig page at marijuana but this is the article about the drug cannabis. This possible ref shows that in common usage oft he term in a major English speaking country hashish is referred to as cannabis and not as marijuana. I certainly do not wish to see denied that marijuana is cannabis buit for English people they are not synonymous. But as long as we have a separate article on hashish (which i opose as I think it should be merged here) it needs to be in the opening so as to not confuse non Northern American readers, and specifically readers in Europe, North Africa and Asia who perceive hash as cannabis and not as marijuana. I hope you are not implying that hashish is not the drug cannabis, and given that it is it needs to be mentioned in the opening. Thanks, SqueakBox

The latest ref I added clearly indicates that cannabis is perceived int eh UK as either resin or in its herbal form [6].

Customs estimate that up to 80% of cannabis resin entering the UK originates from Morocco and most smuggled supplies in its herbal form come from Jamaica.

Hope this clears up that herbal form is not my invention but a common UK English term. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Squeakbox, your comments deeply confuse me, and I'd appreciate hearing from some other editors besides you. We most certainly are interested in what marijuana refers to, especially if the lead sentence of this article asserts that cannabis is also known as marijuana and ganja. That is precisely the issue at hand.

Your concerns about hashish are unwarranted, as the opening sentence does not explicitly claim marijuana is hashish; it only says cannabis is known as marijuana, which it is for a large number of English speakers.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

And I disagree that hashish needs to mentioned in the first sentence because it is but one form of cannabis. Marijuana is not merely a form of cannabis; it is cannabis. So the first sentence should tell readers what cannabis is. Then, later on, we can describe what the different preparations are..--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Its lack in the opening (ie cannabis resin), is glaring, and that is all I am concerned with really, the opening does not have to claim marijuana is hashish in order for this term to be included and I really think the discussion about whether marijuana includes hashish and the argument about the inclusion of hashish in the opening are entirely separate issues. Marijuana is synonymous with cannabis only for North Americans and Australasians (in the English speaking world) and that precisely because hashish is far more of an exotic substance both for users and their police enforcers in those places whereas in the places alluded to above resin is far more commonly used (albeit weed is showing a resurgence in Northern Europe due to artificial growing techniques). What we need to remember is that this article is about cannabis as a drug and not about the word marijuana. As I said before there is likely an argument to create a disambig page at Marijuana which could hopefully solve this issue though merging hashish into this article would also be hugely helpful, IMO. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to combine this article with the hashish article. They are distinctly separate, and should not be combined into one article. 199.125.109.50 (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Hashish is a form of cannabis so we eishter should merge hashish or have an article on the equally notable form of it, marijuana or weed. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Oral Consumption of Marijuana

Going with the popular culture thing as stated in near the top of this page, I think that various methods of consuming marijuana (brownies,cookies, etc.) should be discussed. What think the rest of the potheads and just-curious who are looking up the Marijuana page? --Grammar Watchdog 05:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah as a pothead of sorts. I honestly don't think anyone cares. This is more for those who aren't informed on the subject.--Coffeegirlyme (talk) 12:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

With Cannabis being so prevalent amongst young adults, I would figure that more important detail would be included with the effects/symptoms. Appetite increases (aka the "munchies), hallucinations (being associated with separate stimuli), and heightened sexual drive were nowhere to be found...and if so, even with vague detail.

I believe that slang is slightly important for this article. Although not every term, the most common ones such as "bud," "green," "pot," "weed," etc. should definitely be included as one can imagine researchers looking for such information.

Aside from a slew of obnoxious slang terms; The more information, the merrier. It is unfortunate, however, that this page is a victim of constant vandalism. But for an article about something that is used by teenagers, expect it. I do not plan on adding or changing any information on this page.

G.Egebrecht 06:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It isn't use primarily by teenagers.Coffeegirlyme (talk) 12:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Terrible NPOV

This article, along with the sub-articles on the health effects, continue to be dominated by a pro-cannabis lobby and in my opinion, are an example of the worst of Wikipedia. Citations that show marijuana is harmful are quickly reverted back. Any information from NIDA and other government agencies are removed. The majority of scientific evidence clearly shows marijuana is harmful, especially when ingested in a combustible form. The notion that the inhaling of any combustible plant product, which would include the inhaling of carbon monoxide, is somehow trivially harmful is the epitome of junk science. One day, somebody will clean up this article. I however, am tired of fighting this. There are plenty of articles of on-line that show the truth, such as http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/marijuana/index.html that people can find. As long as this page continues to show its blatant pro-cannabis POV, it stands as evidence why Wikipedia will never be taken seriously as a source of accurate information. --Darth Borehd (talk) 02:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Cannabis has negative side effects. It's fun, but most people who do it can't deal with it not being *good*. But you're going to get primarily pot users watching this page so...--Loodog (talk) 03:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Add some of those refs you say keep getting reverted. I'll keep an eye on POV-pushers. I'd love to see a more balanced approach.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As well as the lung cancer risk, it also, at least in strains in the UK such as skunk (drug) increases the likelihood of serious mental health problems.Merkinsmum 20:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Using whitehousedrugpolicy.gov is a great idea as it is completely unbiased (sarcasm). [edited note: The wise would be prudent to carefully consider any site at a ".gov" domain extension to be 'unbiased'.], totally unlike wikipedia and its shameful editing by the "Pro Cannabis Lobby". Take the following paragraphs from your link for example.

"Of an estimated 106 million emergency department (ED) visits in the U.S. during 2004, the Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN) estimates that 1,997,993 were drug-related. DAWN data indicate that marijuana was involved in 215,665 ED visits. DAWN also collects information on deaths involving drug abuse that were identified and submitted by 128 death investigation jurisdictions in 42 metropolitan areas across the United States. Cannabis ranked among the 10 most common drugs in 16 cities, including Detroit (74 deaths), Dallas (65), and Kansas City (63). Marijuana is very often reported in combination with other substances; in metropolitan areas that reported any marijuana in drug abuse deaths, an average of 79 percent of those deaths involved marijuana and at least one other substance.

Anyone who has taken an introductory psychology course could figure out that statistics are being manipulated to imply the danger and lethality (?) of marijuana to the public. It is common practice in the ED to screen for alcohol and other drugs of abuse in trauma patients . They were not brought in for "Marijuana poisoning". A huge number of people is presented as arriving in the ED in relation to maijuana. Joe Average says: Look! Marijuana caused these folks to go to the emergency room. Rule number one of statistics: Correlation does not prove causation. Using the pages own statistics that 14.8 million americans have used marijuana in the last month, they would test postitive in an emergency room trauma situation. And 215,665/14.8 million =.01457 or 1.4% of this population has visited the emergency room in the span of one year, which is not abnormal. Compare it to some government statistics on emergency room visits (http://www.whitehouse.gov/fsbr/health.html) stating that 113.9 million americans visited the emergency room in 2003. Take 215,665/113,900,000=.00189. So, in summary, of all american emergency room trauma visits 0.2% of patients tested positive for marijuana. I wonder what the relative percentage is for alcohol, let me find out. Ah, about 7.6 million ER visits are related to alcohol (http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2004/alcohol-causes-flood-of-er.html), or, suffice it to say, catastrophically higher.

The bit linking marijuana to deaths is also quite a stretch. I am not the coroner in detroit, dallas, and kansas city, but i would bet you my last dollar that THC overdose was not on any of those death certificates. So, in metropolitan areas that report drug abuse deaths, 79 percent of those deaths involved marijuana. First, if you are going to die of drug overdoses you probably spend most of your day putting whatever you can in your body. I would like to know what percentage of these overdoses smoked a cigarette or drank alchohol in a recent period of time. The article does not even state that the overdoses had recently smoked marijuana at the time of death, just that it was in their system and showed up on a postmortem drug test. That basically means nil.

Another great piece of info from the "Health Effects" section:

In one study, researchers compared marijuana smoking and nonsmoking 12th-graders' scores on standardized tests of verbal and mathematical skills. Although all of the students had scored equally well in 4th grade, those who were heavy marijuana smokers, i.e., those who used marijuana seven or more times per week, scored significantly lower in 12th grade than nonsmokers.

There is no magic behind this study. Did you know any peers that got drunk 7 times a week when you were in high school? They were called something... it's coming back to me... yes. Delinquents. I dont think test score comparisons between an average school child and one that has such a disturbed home life and disinterest in education that they become intoxicated 7 times a week is relevant at all to marijuana's effects on memory and learning. You would be hard pressed to convince me these children have the same study habits, opportunities, and support structure as the average schoolchild. The study they are referencing was most likely not controlled for socioeconomic or other variables but who knows as there is no proper link to the study on the page.

In closing, putting all these ridiculous statistics under the heading "Health effects" is deliberately meant to misinform, i challenge anyone to dispute me on this.

Lastly, i would like to disagree with you that there is such clear cut evidence that marijuana is so dangerous. I am tired of beating the dead horse that it is nigh impossible to overdose on thc but it deserves mention. In psychopharmacolgy in undergrad I learned a great deal about marijuana and a theme in the lectures kept coming up that certain studies that were not reproducible were cited again and again as definitive papers on the subject of marijuana's toxic effects. For anyone interested, the text "Psychopharmacology: Drugs, the Brain and Behavior" by Meyer and Quenzer has a lot of good info on marijuana.

24.88.103.234 (talk) 07:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Timothy

Totally pawwned..! thanks for the analysis :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diza (talk • contribs) 13:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Criminalization Internationally

Although there is reference to other countries, such as Canada, I feel that other countries should be added to the article. True there are other countries, like Asia, but these are references to crack-downs on cannabis. What I would like to see in this section is reference to the reforms that are happening in Britain and Mexico.

By going to http://www.mjlegal.org/news.html you will find many reforms in progress in the United States and internationally. Two examples of note are how in Britain the police have stopped arresting users and have actually found a decrease in the amount of THC consumption. Also in Mexico, the Congress approved a bill decriminalizing marijuana and the only reason it did not pass is that the president shot it down due to fear of U.S. leaders.--Jason at A&M (talk) 21:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Effects

This drug, like any other must have more effects besides the possible increase in chance of psychosis. E.g., vomiting, confusion, increased appititte, halucinations, and etc.

134.129.156.36 (talk) 07:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

We actually have an entire article on its effects, Health issues and effects of cannabis. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

lupus and cannabis

anyone heard of cannabis helping lupus and why would it be a good choise? or why not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.229.87 (talk) 00:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, Crohn's Disease is believed to be an autoimmune disease too, and apparently marijuana helps (Google Michelle Rainey). So there might be a slim chance it will do some good for lupus patients as well. I suggest you find an open-minded immunologist and ask. --GSchjetne (talk) 02:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Questionable "Research" from Canada

The new "health issues" highlighted recently by the Canadian study seem to be somewhat weak. I looked at the actual "research paper" and it seems to me it's nothing more than a summary of old research done over the past 20 years with no new studies and nothing more recent than 8 years ago (2000) cited in the "paper". Most of these studies were later proven to be based on EXTREMELY biased groups or faulty studies in the first place. While I respect anyone doing research, the fact that it's an illicit drug in most countries prevents actual research from being done and hence, there wasn't any new findings as far as I know in the article. Due to the dubious nature of the sources of the drug, there is very little factual research into the plants properties or how the use of the NATURAL drug can affect the human body. Basically, the same argument that has been brought up when the actual research was done on the test subjects, which comes down to "No shit, the crap you got on the corner from a dealer isn't "pure" and could be laced with ammonia or various other cancer causing crap? It was probably stuck under his sink with a crapload of chemicals."

I don't think the "paper" is peer reviewed either. Most of the article seems to be taking quotes directly from the BBC article on "Cannibis has more toxins" (yah third party sources!) which is a bad summary of what I think is a bad paper.

I could be entirely wrong, so someone who does some more homework on this please feel free to chime in :) --Moocats (talk) 21:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It's Health Canada as reported by the BBC news. This is scholarly and published. Would you provide the address of the actual research paper?--Loodog (talk) 23:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I also came across the article from Health Canada in the BBC news which is why I came here. I thought about past research and looked for some tell-tale clues as to similar statements being made in this line of "new" research. Most of the quotes inserted into the article are directly taken from either the BBC news article (and this IS supposed to a scientific section of the article right?) and the summary report made by Health Canada of a summary report done by the British Lung Foundation of the ACTUAL report in "Chemical Research in Toxicology" which I can't access unless you happen to subscribe or want to buy it. See what I mean here? An article about a summary of a summary of the actual research article? Looking through the new info, I can't help but see exact rip outs of the news article, not the actual report, and the article was based on a summary of a summary with no bibliographic resources earlier than 2000 (unless you count the 2001 image of a cannabis leaf). So PLEASE have this checked over for accuracy before implementing it as fact. Here are the links from the backtracking:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7150274.stm - News Article

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3039-cannabis-smoking-more-harmful-than-tobacco.html - EXTREMELY similar article...from 2002 based on what appears to be the same info

http://www.lunguk.org/media-and-campaigning/media-centre/latestpressreleases/BLFcallsforincreasedawarenessofdangerscannabisposetolungs.htm - British Lung Foundation "increased awareness" campaign based on a summary report(summary #1)

http://www.lunguk.org/NR/rdonlyres/94E8B464-B0D3-4E35-A759-79558CF9B89C/0/A_Smoking_Gun.pdf - The BLF summary report of the actual journal (summary #2, not actual research)

http://pubs.acs.org/journals/crtoec/index.html - Chemical Research in Toxicology (the site for the actual research paper)

While news may appear easy to copy, and are often remedially accurate, wikipedia doesn't report on the daily findings of the news unless it's a news based section right? We'd put up a link to the actual source article and relevant information thereof? --Moocats (talk) 18:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

As we have reliable sources surely the critical issue is how we present this material. We should present it as a valid point of view and not as the truth. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition, most of this new information appears to directly conflict with similar articles from similar sites like this one-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060526083353.htm

In case it comes across wrong, I'm not trying to start a confrontation, just trying to make sure the facts are correct before displaying them :) I will make no such attempt to actually alter the main page, I'll leave that to the general consensus of the article :) -Moocats (talk) 19:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I dont see any sign of confrontation. In a dispute (not necessarily between editors, a content dispute) both or all sides should be given space to be presented, and while I think this info is too controversial to be presented without the clearly available opposing views I would support its inclusion as a point of view. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Certainly from the BBC article what is questionable is research alleging cannabis smoke is more dangerous because people hold "in the lungs for a longer period" and in comparison this appears to at least be credible research. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Nitpicking

Under the New breeding and cultivation techniques section, I found some problems:

"Smoking of cannabis with higher THC concentrations leads to an increase of the occurrence of effects, particularly among younger or inexperienced cannabis smokers, who do not adapt their smoking to the higher THC.^[42]" So to paraphrase, taking higher concentrations of a substance leads to increased effects, especially to those with no experience. The entirety of this statement falls under the realm of logic and basic causal relationships. The very next sentence: "Smoking of cannabis with higher THC concentrations was associated with a dose-related increase of physical effects" Again, this offers nothing that isn't already in the article.

"What was well observed in the Dutch study was that the effects based from a single dose—the smoking of one piece of a joint for 20–25 minutes—lasted for more than eight hours... This means that even when individuals have the impression that their state has returned to baseline and that they can smoke another piece of joint, the effect of the first joint may be still present." The smoking of an entire joint rarely lasts more than 10 minutes. Smoking a "piece of joint" for 20-25 minutes is not only an exercise in poor English, it is highly unlikely; a whole joint would burn itself half-out in approximately the same amount of time.

The very next sentence is a semi-quotation with a bad conjugation: "Another study showed that 15 mg THC result in no learning whatsoever occurring over a three-trial selective reminding task at two hours. In several tasks, delta(9)-THC increased both speed and error rates, reflecting “riskier” speed–accuracy trade-offs.^[43]" This would be better off simply quoting the article it references: "The higher dose [15mg] of delta(9)-THC resulted in no learning whatsoever occurring over a three-trial selective reminding task at 2 h [two hours]. Working memory was generally unaffected by delta(9)-THC." As mentioned before in this discussion, I'd take any reference from the .gov domain with a grain of salt, as they have a tremendous potential bias. The article itself is unnervingly brief and its claim that "no learning whatsoever" takes place seems like a truism that most reputable scientist at least would try to re-word or avoid all together.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that these statements mostly do not belong in the Breeding and cultivation section, and would fit better under "Health issues".

Now, problems I have with the "Health issues" section:

"Whilst some studies and tests have proven inconclusive,^{[citation needed][45]}..." I'd prefer Whilst to be While, but that is not very important. However, ^{[citation needed]} preceding the actual citation is slightly more disconcerting.

"It contained 20 times more ammonia, (a carcinogen) and five times more of hydrogen cyanide (which can cause heart disease) and of nitrogen oxides, (which can cause lung damage) than tobacco smoke.^[46]|title=Cannabis smoke 'has more toxins'}}</ref>" The reference ^[46] no longer exists. This section along with its broken reference tag should be removed. Also, when comparing tobacco smoke to cannabis smoke, it should be noted that it is NOT comparing cannabis to cigarettes and their glorious additives.

In the Methods of consumption section, under the Smoking subsection: "The most common methods of smoking cannabis involve the use of implements such as bongs and smoking pipes, or rolling joints or blunts[2]." If this is really a reference, it needs to be fixed. That simple of a statement wouldn't normally require one though.

If you have an accepted account and agree with me, please make the changes (if appropriate). --Vocationalzero (talk) 23:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

more nitpicking

Under "Relationships with Other Drugs" under "Effects" it is stated "Not shown is the mean social harm score, which rated ninth, in a tie with Amphetamine.". I followed the external link to the study presented right before this claim and found no mention of the "social harm" metric nor of where Marijuana, Amphetamine, or any other drug ranks on it. I would like to see this statement cited or removed if a citation cannot be found. Thank you. Moman2 (talk) 21:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Marijuana users risk airway damage

"Alfred respiratory specialists are investigating [with respiratory specialists in Brussels] new ways to identify airway damage from marijuana smoking which is difficult to detect using standard lung function tests. The move comes after a study uncovered a disturbing trend of early onset emphysema in mariujana smokers compared with tobacco smokers. In a study released recently in the Respiratory journal, researches from The Alfred and Monash University found that regular mariujana smokers were presenting with emphysema 25 years earlier on average than tobacco smokers. Led by The Alfred's Head of General Respiratory and Sleep Medicine, Associate Professor Matthew Naughton, the study found that patients aged between 28 and 50 presented with symptoms ranging from breathlessness to chest infection and all were marijuana smokers. "There are very few groups around the world looking at the impact of marijuana on areas such as lungs which is surprising given its prevalence in today's society", he said. From Alfred Matters, Summer Edition, December 2007/January 2008, Issue 82 - Regular news bulletin for the staff of The Alfred Hospital, Melbourne, Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.106.81 (talk) 12:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It would help if you linked an article for verification. Does this study take into account that many cannabis smokers might also smoke cigarettes in addition? The reverse is obviously not true for the other group studied, which could have greatly impacted results. Also, correlation still does not prove causation. Vocationalzero (talk) 22:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess this is a link[7]Dala11a (talk) 18:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

VERY biassed, where's the Psychonautic part?

This article is so mainstream it makes me puke. There isn't ANYTHING here about the psychoactive properties of marihuana, properties which are the main CAUUSE of the recreational use since prehistory. somehow this article seems to state everything besides the obvious reason. --84.108.2.225 (talk) 12:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur with this remark, it seems to be the only one that is talking about the 800 pound Gorila.

This article feels almost censored, with it's acute lack of psychonautic details. people have been using it since pre-history, but the WHY of the pexerience is simply not present!

People like to get high, becuase of the altered state of consciousness, which may include:

not planning ofr the future, living in the present, deeper experience of music and color, shorter spanning thoughts, non-regular pattern recongnoition, non-regular meta-contemplation and association..and more --Procrastinating@^talk2me 13:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)