Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities

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December 26

Smallpox erradication and the soviet union

I'd like to know more about the soviet union's involvement in the struggle to erradicate smallpox. The article on smallpox seems to indicate they had a significant participation, but fails to state so, so I'd like to get the information to put it there. Cold Light (talk) 03:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The book you need is Scourge: The Once and Future Threat of Smallpox by Jonathan Tucker, which details not only the Soviet contributions to smallpox eradication, but also their quest to mix smallpox with other bugs. A scary book indeed, and painstakingly researched. Among the key figures in the eradication program was Dr Viktor Zhdanov, then deputy minister of health for the USSR, who addressed the World Health Assembly in Minneapolis in 1958. He proposed a 'Soviet-style' five year plan to eradicate the disease. The USSR had eliminated smallpox by 1936 despite being little better than a third world country in terms of transportation and infrastructure, having poor quality vaccines, and having to service a huge, ethnically diverse, territory. Just the kind of expertise you'd need if you were trying to remove smallpox from Brazil or India. The USSR also pledged to donate 25 million doses of vaccine.

Unfortunately, the WHO was not interested in getting rid of smallpox at the time, but was rather caught up in the expensive American plan to wipe out malaria, which was eating up $13 million of the $30 million total budget for the WHO. Essentially throwing the USSR a bone, the WHA agreed in 1959 to finance the Soviet smallpox program with a budget of only $300,000 per annum.

The story is long, complicated, but quite worth reading. The Soviets always made the smallpox program a top priority, forcing the issue when nobody else was too interested. I can't type out all the details (read the book!), but the program was largely their baby; they provided the proposal, the blueprint for vaccination schemes, and continually pushed it onto the front of the agenda. It's a bitter irony that the same country that pushed for smallpox eradication the most also mucked about with such evil uses for it. I'm sure cynics would suggest the two programs were actually wed together, but I don't think that was necessarily the case. Matt Deres (talk) 16:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, and here's something else. The USSR was the chief provider of the vaccine, but it was determined that their vaccines were actually substandard. When Donald Henderson (an American and another key player) went to Moscow to discuss the problem, the USSR completely overhauled their program to surpass expectations. The WHO considered a vaccine of 100 million vaccinia particles per mL to be effective - the Soviet labs began churning out vaccines that were ten times that concentration. That meant they would still be potent even after losing some of the effectiveness due to heat. Just what was needed as the WHO prepared to tackle Ethiopia and India. Matt Deres (talk) 17:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I've added the Tucker title to the "Further reading" section at Smallpox. Could you expand the section there on eradication, along the lines of what you've reported here? --Wetman (talk) 15:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Angela Lansbury - Contact Information

Dear Reference Desk, Thank you for taking my question. Eric Skoglund mentioned you may be able to help me. As a fan, I would very much like to contact Angela Lansbury. Do you have any contact information or could you send me to someone who would know how to contact her? Gratefully Yours, Jimdando (talk) 18:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Jim Dando Jr.

I'm sorry, but we're not the Yellow Pages. We do not provide such information. Aecis^Brievenbus 18:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Try contacting her agent. Good luck finding out who her agent is. Rfwoolf (talk) 19:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, however, for an extremely polite, if somewhat unusual, form of question. Bielle (talk) 19:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

You might try this: http://pro.imdb.com/name/nm0001450/agent. It's imdb's agent contacts program, which is a pay service, but is free for 14 days. I've never used it, so I don't know how useful it is. That link would go to the Angela Lansbury contact information that they might have (there's no guarantee that they have it). Corvus cornix_talk 20:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

A snailmail address, apparently for her agency, is in The Celebrity Black Book. All power to Google! --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we leave it at this, if just per WP:BLP. Helping the user in finding an answer to his question is fine, but let's respect Angela Lansbury's privacy. Not every reader may have noble intentions. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a privacy violation to point out published information about how to contact a celebrity's agent. I hope Aecis was saying that we should not go beyond that. --Anonymous, 10:42 UTC, December 27, 2007.

AecisBrievenbus, Wikipedia is not about censorship. It is not a crystal ball in which we scry what we project to be the ignoble intentions of others. If there is a place that makes this information available then people can provide it. According to WP:BLP business addresses are allowable if a reliable secondary source has already cited them. No one here is asking for anything beyond that. Let's not be quick to assume bad faith about the intentions of a person posting a question. Saudade7 22:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

If I assumed bad faith, it was not on the part of the OP, but on the part of other readers. As I said, "Helping the user in finding an answer to his question is fine, but ... [n]ot every reader may have noble intentions." This applied to hypothetical others, not to Jimdando. Fact of the matter is that we are one of the most visited websites in the world. Information is more likely to be distributed when we say it than when an obscure personal website says it, because we have an innumerably bigger audience. Angela Lansbury's private address, for instance, is not public information, and it's certainly not encyclopedic. Keeping that hidden to respect her privacy has nothing to do with censorship. Also, we are not the Yellow Pages. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I sounded snippy. It is almost 1 am here and for some reason my neighbors are playing Elton John's "Yellow Brick Road" over and over again and it is making me cranky. Maybe if this page is as famous as you say, they will see this and turn their stereo down! Alas, this is France and they probably don't come to the English wiki! I will say that I didn't see anyone asking for her private address. Just a contact address. And I guess I thought she was notable enough to make the request non-yellow-pagey. I thought it all sounded okay! Incidentally, I just saw her a week or two ago on late-night T.V. in the (1945) version of "The Picture of Dorian Gray" which is a great movie. She looked so young and innocent! Ciao! Saudade7 23:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

250 pages book prize winner and finalist

Hi there, I know it's like homework but it is not. It sounds like to much research to answer this but I want to know if there any fiction book prize winner or finalist of Man Booker, Pulitzer, Giller, National Book Award, PEN/Faulkner Award and IMPAC Dublin Award that has only 250 pages only?

Please answer my questions. Thanks. The answer I want is just the books name, so I can search for it in my library. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.132.145 (talk) 23:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The Ref Desk had this exact question about 10 days ago. If I knew how to check the archives, I'd give you the reference to it. As I recall, I gave you links to articles where you could find all the information except for the number of pages. I am curious as to why the books have to have "only 250 pages only"? Bielle (talk) 23:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Because I want to read the book of exact 250 pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.241 (talk) 20:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Because I want to read a book of exactly 250 pages. That's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.241 (talk) 20:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Previous question is here: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 December 11#International Literary 1992-2007 Prize winner or nominees.  --Lambiam 00:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

First, thank you, User:Lambiam for the link. Second, my question is still hanging out there: why 250 pages? Bielle (talk) 04:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

And page counts change from edition to edition, as well. No book has a "set" number of pages—that changes depending on whether it is in hardcover, paperback, large print, a new publisher, a new introduction, etc. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 16:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Music video I saw

I was watching British music programme/thing e4 music on channel E4, and a music video came on where a band where running/playing about in a gymnasium style room, where gymnasts were genuinely doing gymnastics, and the band were making lacklustre attempts etc. I also note it was quite colourful.

N.B. the band were called someone and the something, and I am sure the someone's name began with T if it helps.. thanks. Christopher —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.160.202 (talk) 23:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Tilly and the Wall with Sing songs along? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KirTaMHAUG0 ? Great song - can't say i've seen it on uk tv but seems to fit your description ny156uk (talk) 00:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

That's the one, thank you very much!! Christopher —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.160.202 (talk) 21:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

December 27

Re Angels and wings or no wings.

How do I say thank you to all those who have answered my question? Is'nt it wonderful to have a site where questions can be answered by several people with differing views which gives pause for thought,and that they ask for nothing in return.Whoever came up with this site I salute you!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.141.39 (talk) 10:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Click the "edit" link next to your question and post a thank you (or a follow-up comment). Then, it will be attached to the end of the comments on your question. -- kainaw™ 13:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Names

Are Brazil nuts just called nuts in Brazil, and are Canada geese just called geese in Canada? Hyper Girl (talk) 12:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I know you are just trying to be cute, but it helps if you choose articles that do not have quotes such as: "In Brazil these nuts are called castanhas-do-Pará (literally "chestnuts from Pará"), but Acreans call them castanhas-do-Acre instead." As for the Canada goose, there is no reason for Canadians to not refer to it as the Canada goose. It isn't the only goose in Canada. Do you expect them to refer to it as "That other goose that isn't like the rest of the geese that everyone else calls the Canada goose"? -- kainaw™ 13:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

As a side note, there is a House M.D. episode which deals with "Brazil nuts" and their name: Whatever_It_Takes_(House_episode).--droptone (talk) 13:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't realized that only Americans call it Canadian bacon before I asked a Canadian friend about it and he had no idea what I was talking about or why it was called that. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 15:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that's odd, we call that "back bacon". For geese, if I saw some Canada geese walking or flying, I would just refer to them as "geese", and everyone would know what I meant. If I said "there was lots of goose crap at the park today" everyone would know I meant those prolific defecators the Canada geese. We do call them "Canada geese" but it is usually enough just to say "geese". However, if I was referring to geese as food, I would assume it is a white-feathered goose on a farm. (I don't even know if that's true but I assume we don't eat Canada geese!) Adam Bishop (talk) 15:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Surely one or two of you Canucks have tried a honker.—eric 16:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

French fries aren't called French in France, nor are English Muffins called English in England. And Scotch Tape is called Sellotape in Britain.

By the way, the Holy Roman Empire was, as Voltaire remarked, neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. Rhinoracer (talk) 15:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well scotch-tape and sellotape are both brand names so that more why they have their different names. As for the other stuff - I expect that if the country-name is used to descirbe a national method of something then the national name would be dropped, but if it is describing something 'native' to that country then it may remain...E.g. English-muffins are presumably an english method of making muffins, thus in England we just call them muffins, but would call american-muffins american to note the difference from our 'normal' recipe. That's just my take on matters though! ny156uk (talk) 17:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well read the English muffin article for that mess of a name. Rmhermen (talk) 18:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course, we could take this national naming much further back with the French/Spanish/Italian/Polish/Christian/British disease question. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 19:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Spanish fly...Italian ice...Turkish delight...Welsh Rabbit...Irish coffee...Portuguese parliament (obs.)... my goodness! Rhinoracer (talk) 20:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget Dutch courage. In Quebec the Canada Goose is called Bernache du Canada.  --Lambiam 01:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

In the Czech Republic, many restaurants and snack bars sell fried potato wedges called Americké brambory, or "American potatoes." Czechs are surprised to learn they're not common in America. (For the record, french fries are called hranolky, a word that refers to their shape.) In the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland, the fat blueberries we're used to eating in North America are called "Canadian blueberries." The ones you normally get over there are smaller. In Canada, the term "American cheese" is not generally used; Subway calls it "white cheddar." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought "American cheese" was processed cheese slices! Adam Bishop (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It is. All American cheese is processed, but not all processed cheese is American cheese. Or so Wikipedia says. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Going back to Adam Bishop's comment, I live (not too far) south of the Canadian border, but here, too, if you refer to "geese", people generally understand what are properly known as "Canada geese". The only other kind of geese that are somewhat common around here are domestic geese, but they are unusual enough that they are called "domestic geese" or "white geese". Marco polo (talk) 16:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Harrods

I know Harrods is an internationally renowned shop where anything is possible, i.e. you can buy an elephant from there, but how do they justify selling simple things, for example a mens cardigan at £1,300, for such exorbitant prices. Moreover, why are people so willing to pay this amount of money, do people really just have more money than sense? I mean I know Harrods does sell the very best but £1,300 for a cardigan is a bit of a joke --Hadseys (talk • contribs) 15:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

If you are paying that much, you know that the other shoppers will be willing to pay that much. Therefore, you won't have to rub shoulders with the WalMart-type of customer. There are people willing to pay for that luxury. For example, I found a restaurant in Palm Springs that charged over $20 for a simple hamburger and fries. The extra cost is so you know that the people at the next table are also willing to pay that much for a hamburger. -- kainaw™ 15:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course what that says about you or your eating companions is a another question! Richard Avery (talk) 16:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

What we consider 'sense' is pretty much our opinion of what things are worth. I wouldn't pay millions for an original Monet but plenty of people do and consider it to be 'worth' that much. The only real indicator of 'worth' that we have is its value in the marketplace and seeing as (presumably) these sweaters sell, we must conclude that those that buy them believe they are 'worth' the cost. Why? It could be down to quality, luxury, exclusivity, they might just plain ole like it and not have to worry about money at all or it could be any other number of reasons. Also consider proportionality in the prices. If you earn 10,000 and spend £10 on a jumper that is 1/1,000th of your earnings. If you earn 1,000,000 and spend £1,000 that is the same proportionally (I hope my maths is right!). Proportional to income they are spending the same on clothing. Yes they could 'save' and pay the £10 and have much more spare cash, but generally people 'live to their means' so as income increases so does their expenditure. There are plenty of people earning £1m not buying £1,300 jumpers but there are also plenty that won't consider that to be 'too much' because relative to their income it's no more than what most people pay. ny156uk (talk) 17:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Two words: "Caveat emptor". -- Saukkomies 12:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This might not be relevant, but it is common practice in the UK to inflate a price for 14 days (I think it is) then sell the item at an "amazing" 50% off (or with 50% extra), which looks like a bargain when of course it isn't. You can easily observe that some goods have monthly "see-saw" prices.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I've worked at Harrods. At the time, the biggest money-earner was its Kerry butter. The highest markups were for perfume.

Harrods has always stocked low-price, high-volume items.

BTW, although my pay was pitiful, the fact that I worked in Dairy (including the cheese dept) and was able to buy all dairy items at half-price made up for it!

Snobbery? True, I was hired the instant I mentioned my school (Lycée Français de Londres), and everybody-- literally EVERYBODY-- called each other by his/her surname, e.g. Miss Regan, Mr Smith...even when snogging...

Halcyon days, youngsters, halcyon days...

Rhinoracer (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Being rich ain't easy. You wouldn't want to be caught dead wearing a £39.50 cardigan from Marks & Spencer – even though you may think it looks nicer on you. Just imagine the enormous loss of prestige.  --Lambiam 01:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, just buying the cheap sweater might help you to be rich! (though it hasn't worked for me yet).--Johnluckie (talk) 07:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Those who spend over £1,000 on a jumper/sweater when they could get one of very similar quality for maybe £150 generally do so to make a point. Often they are newly rich and want others to know that they are rich. People with inherited money have less to prove and are usually taught not to spend money with unnecessary extravagance. Marco polo (talk) 16:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[Latin] Is the link the work cited? Is it worth linking?

postted on Talk:Terence#Is_this_the_cited_work.3F and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_Greece_and_Rome#Terence:

The Internet Archive has a book] that looks like Donatus's work cited in the article. I want to make sure it really is, and if so to link to it. Can somebody tell? trespassers william (talk) 00:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

trespassers william (talk) 17:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is the same work: the critical edition of the Commentum by Paul Wessner of 1902–1908. For people really interested in this stuff it may of course be worth linking, but make sure to specify it is in Latin. (Also, I can only read the scanned PDF pages, the "text" comes out as garbage.)  --Lambiam 21:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Joe Keeper

In researching the article on Joe Keeper, I ran across mentions of a modern day Joe Keeper, as being a person who has been interviewed frequently on Cree topics. I imagine this is a son or grandson of the athlete Joe Keeper, but I don't have any proof of that. Any information as to what his relationship is to the original Joe Keeper? There's also a ferry, M.V. Joe Keeper, and I wanted to add that to the Joe Keeper article, but there was nothing to prove whom it was named for. Does anybody have input to that? Corvus cornix_talk 18:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Marie Antoinette's children

What happend to Marie Antoinette's children after the revolution?. Has the bloodline ended.

Signed Michael Fitzpatrick —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzpatrick1795 (talk • contribs) 19:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

She had four children. Please see these articles. Marie-Thérèse-Charlotte of France, Louis-Joseph, Dauphin of France, Louis XVII of France, and Princess Sophie Hélène Béatrix of France. Oda Mari (talk) 19:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Marie Antoinette was pregnant seven times. Three of these pregnancies resulted in a stillborn child (1779, 1780, 1783). Of the remaining four, there were two daughters and two sons. Princess Marie Therese Charlotte de France (Madame Royale), b. 1778 married her cousin Louis Antoine Dauphin of France, Duc d’Angoulême, the son of King Charles X of France, but they had no children. She died in 1851. Her brother, Louis Joseph of France, b. 1781, died at age 7. Another son, Louis, born 1785, died in 1795 in prison of tuberculosis. (Some impostors, notably Naundorff, have claimed to be him). The final daughter, Sophie, died at age 1. So Marie Antoinette had only one child who lived to adulthood, and had no grandchildren. - Nunh-huh 19:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Civil war in Pakistan

I read today where a Pakistani politician (even party leader, I think) talked of a serious danger of civil war in Pakistan: Is this exaggerated or how likely is a civil war in Pakistan following Benazir Bhutto´s assassination?--AlexSuricata (talk) 20:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no organised military or paramilitary force in Pakistan that could make much of a dent in the Pakistani Army; major political parties aren't backed by militias. Although radical (and sometimes militant) islamists are present in some strength in the northwest, they're not organised and don't share a much of a political vision, and their current military capacity runs mostly to bomb attacks and a bit of hit-and-run; they don't have much resources and the only worthwhile foreign support they enjoy is the occasional infusion of cash and nutjobs from Saudi - they're not the VC and they're not going to be sweeping into Karachi any time soon (caveat: see below). That leaves two possibilities. Firstly a general civil uprising - but the ordinary Pakistani folks on the street aren't of one mind; while many are unhappy with Musharraf it's not clear that, even now, they agree on much, and it seems (right now) that the attack on Ms. Bhutto is believed to have been conducted by islamists. So there's a lot of turmoil and discontent, but it's not really polarised enough for a downright X vs Y civil war. The army is capable of keeping control in all these circumstances, albeit with an increased level of repression.

The second possibility is division in the army itself; you hear rumours of cadres of officers having sympathetic views of the islamic militants; it seems unlikely a full-scale civil war could break out unless the army itself split. If some section of the army tried to overthrow Musharraf, or declared itself allied with the islamists, then all bets are off - but who knows how likely that really is. I think the US are concerned that it is a possibility - you may remember that odd business a month or two ago about the US expressing concerns regarding the disposition of Pakistan's nuclear weapons, and Musharraf tetchily responding that he was entirely sure they were in safe hands and would remain so - the subtext seemed to be that the US, concerned that the nukes would get loose in the event of some general breakdown of Pakistan, had issued Musharraf with some indication that they (the US) would do whatever was necessary to prevent that from happening. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I would guess that the most likely scenario would be one of military coup (something not exactly unknown in Pakistan) from officers wanting to take advantage of a feeling of insecurity and popular unhappiness with Musharraf. But who knows—it's a pretty turbulent time, things could go a lot of ways. (If I were Musharraf, what I would do at the moment is to disarm Pakistan's nuclear weapons, get rid of the nuclear program altogether, and join the NPT. He'd be forever an enemy in the eyes of his people, but it'd make him an international darling, even in the wake of all this, and it'd significantly reduce the current nuclear threat that Pakistan poses due to its instabilities. But I'm not Musharraf and I don't pretend to have much understanding of the dynamics of domestic politics in Pakistan.) --24.147.86.187 (talk) 17:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Eating the Salad with his Fingers -- famous person who defies etiquette and the sheep who follow... (SOLVED)

Resolved

I remember reading about this in the 80s so it is not Ben Affleck (who is the only person who shows up in the Google search) -- The story is as follows: there was a famous person (back in the 1910s-1950s) who might have been a famous writer and person of culture. One day he is in a very nice restaurant in New York and he notices that everyone is staring at him. At this point he begins to eat his salad with his fingers. The person in question is such an arbiter of taste and refinement that people immediately question everything they know of etiquette and take up eating their salads with their fingers as well.

For some reason the name that sticks in my head is George Bernard Shaw but I cannot see this behavior or prestige meshing with what I know of Shaw. Maybe it was just a character in a story *by* Shaw. Or maybe I read this story the same week I also read something by or about Shaw. All I really know for sure is that it wasn't Ben Affleck. Any help is great! Saudade7 22:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The only person I can think of who might fit this is Eartha Kitt, who came to grief for eating something with her fingers at a White House reception - this was in the 70s, from memory. She countered with something like "If you're not supposed to eat anything with your fingers, what are the finger bowls doing on the table?". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well JackofOz, that's a great story! I don't think it is the story I am looking for, but good for Eartha Kitt! Really, what *are* finger bowls for? Me, I prefer Oshibori! Thanks for your help! Saudade7 23:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I remember hearing a variation of this one with some president who poured his coffee into the saucer and drank it, with his guests following suit. Don't remember who though. bibliomaniac15 00:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

In the version I remember hearing the president in question was hosting a dinner, believe it was Calvin Coolidge, and being afraid to commit any faux pas in such distinguished company all the guests were determined to follow the president's lead in regard to table ettiquette. As coffee was being served at the end of the meal Coolidge somewhat inexplicably began pouring cream directly into his saucer; somewhat confused all the guests nonetheless followed his example, upon which the president proceeded to lean down and place the saucer for his cat. Always figured it to be apocryphal, but a good story anyways. Azi Like a Fox (talk) 09:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I heard a similar story (must be false then, lol): someone (I think it was a French king) was hosting a dinner, and one of the poorer guests started drinking water from a saucer. Everyone found it funny, but then the king did the same; soon everyone drank from saucers. More on topic, I've never heard about the fingers in the salad, unfortunately. :( · AndonicO ^Talk 15:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear bibliomaniac15, Azi Like a Fox, and AndonicO, Thank you so much for your responses. It is starting to sound like some archetypical story. I have been wondering about the salad story for years but the saucer stories are new to me. hmm. Thanks and Happy New Year! Saudade7 21:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like the OP may have been thinking of The Bell Jar, where a famous poet eats his salad with his fingers. SWAdair | Talk 10:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh SWAdair! It really could be The Bell Jar! which I actually did read at approximately the same time that I was reading GBS!! I have not thought of that book in forever! (Although it was very good!). The funny thing is that I usually remember the atmosphere in which I was immersed when I learned about something and I felt like I received the fingers/salad information while reading in the bathtub, yet I read The Bell Jar in a noisy garrishly-lit smelly Miami mall food-court and the only thing I remember reading in that kind of environment was Hesse's Demian! hmm. But your suggestion is so exactly concurrent with my personal timeline and trajectory that that must be it!!! Thanks so very much!!! Saudade7 12:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. Somehow a "noisy garrishly-lit smelly Miami mall food-court" seems very à propos for reading The Bell Jar.  :-) SWAdair | Talk 00:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Louis XIV at war

A good bit of Louis XIV's reign was spent in military campaigns. What I would like to know is how effective he was as a strategist? Bel Carres (talk) 23:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Clio must be on vacation. This may not answer your question, but for now, you can check out Franco-Dutch War, the War of the League of Augsburg, War of the Spanish Succession, War of Devolution, War of the Reunions, which Louis was involved in. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

December 28

UNAM student population

I was curious about the student population of UNAM and had a couple of questions that I was hoping you guys could help me figure out.

1. How many campuses are there and how closely are they affiliated?
2. What is the geographic area that these campuses cover.
3. According to the article there are 286,484 students. Do they generally identify with each other as UNAM students or are they more tied to their individual campus?

What I'm trying to figure out is if it's more like some large university systems like The University of California system where there's not a lot of interaction between students at the different universities and in fact there's a little bit of rivalry, or if it's more like a single entity where students belong to various colleges within the University (e.g. engineering, humanities, biological sciences, etc) but they still identify with each other as UNAM alumni.

Thanks

71.5.1.203 (talk) 01:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Aesthetics, etc

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of some thinkers who are working with idea that music (and art, generally) which stays close to "the primitive" or basic or natural rhythms reflects "humanness" and is pleasing or comforting? Sorry for the vague terms; it's an idea I've been kicking around and I'm curious as to whether or not other people already have. A related idea would be Jung and Campbell's idea that "primitive" or "tribal" (what is an accurate term here, by the way?) lifestyles generally produce more psychologically healthy people--and, is that still a valid idea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajwolter (talk • contribs) 02:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I will try to pull the citations when I get off work, but I do remember one study of prisoners that found that the prisoners who had cells with windows to the outside went to the infirmary less often than prisoners who did not have cells with windows to the outside. This was a brief side-note in my evolutionary psychology course so I didn't track down the exact study to make sure they randomized it properly, but I would hope that the authors of the textbook did. But I will try to find the exact citation when I get home (~9 hours from now). I have also just started a book titled Evolutionary aesthetics edited by Eckart Voland and Karl Grammer, which seems to be something that you would be interested in.

I imagine that the idea that a certain set of sounds would be pleasing because they are primitive or basic would easily be tested. Get a wide range of sounds that are supposedly pleasing because of their primitiveness and find out whether people from a diverse cross section of human societies find the sounds to be pleasing (and it would be best if you would include a hunter-gather society in the mix for an accurate sampling). When I was studying world music there was talk about how many of the soundscapes we covered either explicitly or implicitly mimicked sounds from nature. But do realize that it is easy to make such a claim without any rigorous study of the musics of many cultures. My personal theory is that these mimicked natural sounds only make sense to a person who is already familiar with the musical style, just like onomatopoeia representations of sounds are different in different languages but to each language user the sounds seem perfectly suited.--droptone (talk) 13:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll just point out that "Primitive" is not a word that is used very much any more, any more than "Oriental" is...You might check out Sally Price's book, "Primitive Art in Civilized Places" or Marianna Torgovnick's book, "Gone Primitive: Savage Intellects, Modern Lives" to see why this is so. For the most part "Primitivism" is a Western construct hinting at a theory of cultural evolution. Campbell was a populizer of certain structuralist approaches to anthropology and mythology and even Freud and Jung were structuralists to some extent. But for this reason, while we still hold certain ideas of these thinkers in esteem, we have come to see that certain of their views were clouded by the cultural prejudices of their day. For this reason you would have a hard time being taken seriously with a theory such as the one you are describing. Not to be unkind. Saudade7 21:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The citation for that study I mentioned is: Moore, E.O. (1981-1982). A prison environment's effect on health care service demands. Journal of Environmental Systems, 11, 17-34.--droptone (talk) 23:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

==

Governing Structure - officers - ranks of British Raj, East India Company

Hello All: I would like a concise, list or break down if you will of the Officers' titles and positions in the British East India Company and British Raj. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geigenbauer (talk • contribs) 15:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

watercolour artist possibly spanish

Dear Sirs, I am searching for info on the artist of 4 paintings I have. They were all painted within a week of each other, in April 1898,by a watercolour artist whose name appears to be , by the signature, Louis Fagnise/Fagaise, although the last 4 letters are indistinct. I have tried to contact Spanish art galleries, to no avail. These are beautiful paintings, with "Granada" written by the signatures. I would appreciate any info you may find, or e amil addresses of specialists who may point me in the right direction. Many thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.161.205 (talk) 17:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds more like a French name to me Rhinoracer (talk) 12:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Yup, the Spanish spelling of his first name would be "Luis". I checked some relevant pages, and did some googling, but found no obvious candidates. Maybe if you could upload a picture, or give some more information about how/where your acquired the paintings, someone might come along and be able to narrow it down a bit, and point you in the right direction. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 12:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Charisma in U.S. Presidental elections

Is there any historical precedent of an American president making a strong showing in the primaries/elections or even making it into the White House largely due to his charisma or personal appeal?

202.156.14.10 (talk) 17:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

John F. Kennedy was seen as more charismatic than Richard Nixon in the 1960 campaign, and won despite Nixon's greater experience and paper qualifications. Kennedy's charisma [1] served him well in televised debates [2]. His personal appeal was an important factor in his election. Edison (talk) 17:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

He's the first person that came to mind and is an excellent example, but my question probably didn't properly qualify that I'm looking for someone that was an unmitigated disaster elsewhere, being an actual president would also help immensely. Sort of like Huckabee if he made it into the Oval Office, if such an example's necessary. 202.156.14.10 (talk) 18:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Warren Harding is mentioned by Malcolm Gladwell in the book Blink - the power of thinking without thinking, as an example of a charismatic individual who was actually not very good, but did well because of his charisma. I forget the details as i've passed the book to a friend, but I recall him being mentioned as a mediocre president. ny156uk (talk) 18:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This can be phrased a different way: Has there been any U.S. President who was elected without having charisma or personal appeal? Nixon, Lincoln, and Jackson are the only ones that come to mind. As for "disaster" - that is an opinionated statement in politics. What you call "disaster", another person calls "experience". -- kainaw™ 18:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

That there isn't a objective standard is true, but there is still a broad consensus that can be reached. Thank you, Warren Harding fit the bill perfectly. I'm trying to illustrate how past all the feel-good rhetoric Obama is espousing and the sentiment that endgenders, there really isn't anything that points towards aptitude, but I don't think he has precedent in someone trying to heal divisions, so I'll have to settle for old Harding. 202.156.14.10 (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If you are interested in political talk about healing divisions, see the Lincoln-Douglas debates (which should be called the Douglas-Lincoln debates in my opinion since Douglas won). Lincoln was trying very hard to straddle the fence and make everyone happy while Douglas was constantly bringing up inconsistencies and lack of aptitude in Lincoln's past. It is my opinion that the reason we don't include these debates when we teach youngsters about Lincoln is because they make him look like a politician who is just trying to make people like him so he can get elected. Of course, we don't want to get derailed into a debate over the content of the Lincoln-Douglas debates here. I just feel it is a good precedent for a politician trying to be the big "healer" and not a "divider". Many politicians have claimed to be healers since then, but haven't done much in speeches or actions to follow up on the claim. -- kainaw™ 18:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Douglas won the debate", Kainaw? I'm interested in this because we have the modern-day equivalents, and everybody talks about who "won" or "lost" the debate, but nobody ever, ever, defines - either before, during or after the debate - what these terms mean or how a win/loss is determined. And they become even more apparently meaningless when the "loser" of the debate goes on to win the election, as Lincoln did. So, what does it actually mean? -- JackofOz (talk) 22:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hm? Douglas's faction won the election; see Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I did see it, especially the sentence "The legislature then re-elected Douglas." Is that some sort of political code that means Douglas was not elected and Lincoln was? I'm interested in knowing what Jack says it means. -- kainaw™ 02:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Ronald Reagan vs. Jimmy Carter comes to mind as well. Reagan was a lot more charismatic. Wrad (talk) 18:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that Martin Van Buren could ever have been considered charismatic, but in those pre-mass media days, it really didn't matter so much. Corvus cornix_talk 19:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

In 2000, George W. Bush was seen as more charismatic than Al Gore. Whether Bush has been a disaster, I leave you to decide. Marco polo (talk) 19:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course, whether Bush has been a disaster doesn't answer the question of what people should have though of Bush when voting. For that these links may be helpful [3] http://www.ishipress. com/bushgore.htm (blacklisted site) [4] [5] (okay yes that one was only revealed fairly late but it's the kind of thing that surely should have been tested before you voted for the guy). BTW, for American's this link on a potential future president that I came across may be of interest [6] Nil Einne (talk) 15:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Bombardier Q Series

Hello. Is the Bombardier Q Series indirectly named after the Quiet Revolution? Thanks in advance. Have a happy new year! --Mayfare (talk) 19:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

You mean because of the "Q", which stands for "quiet" (= "not noisy")? I think not. We have a different meaning of the word "Quiet" in "Quiet Revolution"; there it means "peaceable", "not violent".  --Lambiam 00:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Joshua Gianavel

Does anybody have any information about Joshua Gianavel, other than what's written about him in Foxe's Book of Martyrs? Corvus cornix_talk 19:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Try this [7] --n1yaNt 19:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I've seen some things about the novel Rora, I'm just wondering how accurate it is. Thanks. Corvus cornix_talk 21:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you see: Mitchell, A. W., & Muston, A. (1853). The Waldenses sketches of the evangelical Christians of the valleys of Piedmont, comp. for the Board of publication chiefly from "The Israel of the Alps.". Making of America. Philadelphia: Presbyterian board of publication and Sabbath school-work. [8]. The Amazon preview quotes "... Captain Joshua Gianavel, who alone had foreseen the contemplated treachery, kept the hostile army in check, and by degrees drove it from the ..." on page 195, but i can't yet find that passage in the University of Michigan online edition. Is this the same Captain Gianavel you're interested in?—eric 19:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Although Amazon indicates page 195, I find this passage in both sources on the page with printed page number 199.  --Lambiam 00:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

That's the same Gianavel. Thanks, Eric. I'll look into that. Corvus cornix_talk 21:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Also spelled Josue/Giosuè Janavel, see: Audisio, Gabriel. (1999) The Waldensian Dissent.[9] pp. 205-7.—eric 22:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the Waldensians article links to an online biography (in French, i am reduced to looking at the pictures.)—eric 22:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I wish I read French.  :) Thanks for that. Corvus cornix_talk 23:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Napolean and the 1812 invasion of Russia

The most pressing question here, is why did Napolean invade Russia? I understand the basic concept, that Russia pulled out of the economic warfare against Great Britain, but what could Napolean have gained from an effort? Of course he could not have known a bitter defeat was eminent on the march back from Moscow, but what motivation does he have militarily and economically to attack? His People's Army, or Grand Army was stretched to limits as is, and raising another 300,000 seems folly. 200,000 were already involved with the Spanish during this time. Why go after a separate enemy while still fighting a battle on many different fronts? The basic concept eludes me, and I can't understand the reasoning behind the invasion that eventually led to his first exile and true defeat. Anyone have any suggestions/ideas? Bugsym5 (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

December 29

Looking for pics - help

Coulter with trademark black heels and monkey hands

Does anyone know where I can download pictures of Ann Coulter barefoot or wearing socks?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.76.8.224 (talk) 00:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me just say this: Ewwwww..... - Nunh-huh 00:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Could've been worse. He could've asked for the sex tape. ;) --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 14:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't find any, she always appears to be wearing a pair of black heels. If her feet are anything like her freakish hands, its not surprising she wants to keep them covered up. Rockpocket 09:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Does she play the piano? If not, she should. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so, but she likes the Grateful Dead, The Bible and calling people she doesn't like "fags". A real charmer. Rockpocket 09:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

logrolling--has anyone heard of corrupt dealmaking betw.public defenders and

prosecutors? What I specifically have in mind is where a public defender takes a dive on one case, so that defendant John Doe goes to jail, in return for more lenient prosecution on a different case with a different defendant. Thanks, Rich (talk) 02:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If you do a bit of searching around for quid pro quo examples in legal-cases for google you get some similar stuff, but none I saw had the collusion of two lawyers trading favours in one case in order to have the favour returned in another. ny156uk (talk) 12:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try searches under quid pro quo. I hadn't thought of that.Rich (talk) 02:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

GDP in the 70-s

Does anyone have, or could perhaps compute, the average GDP per capita of all the communist countries (Warsaw pact+Yugoslavia+China) in the 70-s and the average GDP per capita of all the other countries then (West, Africa,...)? Cptukbo (talk) 08:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is half the data for of your question [10] though you will have to get to work with the calculator). You will have to add together the various constituent parts of the former eastern European countries, and also find the populations. SaundersW (talk) 11:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

What explains the high position of Slovenia on that list? User:Krator (t c) 12:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Populations in 1975 are here. I thought that was really interesting too, especially compared with the low position of Serbia and Montenegro. SaundersW (talk) 12:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Asaish - Kurdish secret police?

I've been reading a Polish article, and the name 'Asaisz' popped up. It seems it is some form of Kurdish secret police/Kurdish intelligence service/Kurdish Security Force, but I couldn't find anything about it on Wiki (suprisingly, Law enforcement by country doesn't have a section on Iraq, and Law enforcement in Iraq article has no section on Kurds). There is nothing useful in Category:Law enforcement in Iraq, neither. Search for Asaish nets a few more hits in English ([11]) but not much more. Maybe the right spelling is different? Perhaps somebody could provide more information here, and/or stub the relevant articles? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"Asaysh" seems to get some useful results on Google. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:50, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

True, albeit not any more when associated with +Kurdush than Asaish; on the bright side Google suggested Asayesh which gives much more hits (4500 compare to few hundreds earlier results gathered). I am still looking for anything that would appear to be a reliable source for English-accepted name and definition, though.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Textbook use in the US

Does anyone know of some way to source the statement that a certain textbook is used widely in US education (or possibly to make the statement more precise)? A user suggested we could use the sales figures, but he doesn't know where to get them - does anyone know that? Furthermore, I was wondering if the sales figures would be enough, since the book also represents an alternative, dissident view and we might need to know what part of the buyers actually used it as a textbook and not as a reading. It was suggested that you can tell US textbooks from other books based on the price, so the high price of this book would suggest it is used primarily as such. Thoughts, anyone?--Anonymous44 (talk) 16:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe in US Boards of Educations are responsible for obtaining and distributing the books. Perhaps somebody more familiar with them may help, contacting one or two and asking questions may be another option.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If it is a big-name publisher it should be pretty easy. Do you have one in mind? Wrad (talk) 23:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It's Wadsworth Publishing. So what could we do? --Anonymous44 (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently they were formerly known as Thomson Learning. You could easily make a statement that they create many popular textbooks used worldwide, and cite their website. The source would be biased, but the statement would, nevertheless, be true. Wrad (talk) 00:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I was wondering why I can't find a wiki article about it! But do you think the fact that they publish popular textbooks is sufficient as a proof that an individual textbook they have published is popular? It's Thomson's, ergo it's widely used? Seems like a kind of strange thing to write in a footnote.--Anonymous44 (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It depends on what you're trying to argue. What's the article you're working on? Wrad (talk) 00:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's Michael Parenti. The article mentions a textbook he wrote, "Democracy for the Few". The question is how one could source the "used widely" part.--Anonymous44 (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a textbook rating website. Wrad (talk) 00:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! It's a pity that particular textbook hasn't been reviewed there yet. --Anonymous44 (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I happen to have experience in textbook publishing. Wadsworth and Thomson are important publishers for the higher-education (college and university) textbook market. They are not significant in the primary or secondary markets. Sales figures are difficult to obtain, as they are proprietary information held by publishers. Publishers can fairly accurately estimate the size of a given market and, based on their sales, deduce their market share. However, they tend not to release this information publicly unless it will boost their share prices. For the purposes of Wikipedia, I would omit the vague and subjective adverb "widely". There is no good way to substantiate that something is "widely" used, since it isn't clear exactly what that means. I think that I might stick to "a textbook used in U.S. colleges and universities" without trying to indicate its relative popularity. Marco polo (talk) 03:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I see, I was afraid that would be the case. I could imagine two ways to fix this: citing a reliable source such as a study of US education mentioning the textbook and using the word "widely" or a clearly synonymous expression; or replacing "widely" with a concrete number from some sort of statistics for the use of various textbooks in US education. Unfortunately, I have no idea where either of these could be found.--Anonymous44 (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What Dutch painter signed with "ploos"

I've encountered a series of sea-ship paintings of very high quality, painted in a late 19th century style. The ships are clearly Dutch sailing ships of modest size. The signature looks like "ploos". The paintings are about 24 x 36, all in matching gilded frames from the turn of the 20th century. Nothing on the back identifies the provenance, but the frames look to be original the paintings.

I've not been able to find any information searching the web, searching the public library, or searching here. The only connection I've found is to Cornelius Ploos van Amstel, who lived in the later 18th century and is known as a skilled art collector.

Can you identify a Dutch sea painter from the late 19th century who signed his work "ploos"

Thanks, Phil Grisier San Francisco —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pgrisier (talk • contribs) 17:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you upload a picture of the painting or of the signature? Maybe this website will help you. It allows you to search the collections of all maritime museums in the Netherlands. You can also try emailing one of those museums (the maritime museum of amsterdam is probably the best) and ask them. risk (talk) 00:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a Dutch painter, born in 1926, named Jaap Ploos van Amstel or, possibly Jaap van Amstel Ploos, but he is too young for the dating you have given. Those gilded frames were quite common in North America right up until after WWII. If you have a local art gallery or art museum, they may have specialists in this area. If they cannot identify the paintings for you, they may know who can. Because you live in San Francisco, representatives from auction houses like Sotheby's and Christie's often visit, looking for specific artists or types of art. The visits are usually announced in local papers and it is quite easy (and free) to get an expert to look at your samples. Bielle (talk) 03:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Bangladesh provincial government?

Why Bangladesh doesn't have its own provincial or I should say divisional governments to represent the federal government, like Canada, India and Pakistan, they have premiers(Canada) and Chief Ministers(Indian and Pakistan) to represent the Prime Minister? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.131.137 (talk) 18:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Canada, India, and Pakistan are federations, with separate governments at the national and subnational (provincial or state) level. Canadian provincial premiers and the chief ministers of India's states and Pakistan's provinces do not represent their nation's prime minister. Instead, they are the heads of separate governments at the state or provincial level. Often, they belong to a different party than the nation's prime minister. Unlike Canada, India, and Pakistan, Bangladesh is a unitary state. In fact, the divisional commissioners of Bangladesh (the chief officers of its divisions) do represent the prime minister of Bangladesh, as they are appointed by the prime minister. The same is true for the chief officers of the districts and upazilas. Unlike the provinces of Canada and Pakistan and the states of India, the subdivisions of Bangladesh do not have separate governments. Instead they are in effect departments of the national government. Marco polo (talk) 03:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there a list of divisional commissioners of Bangladesh and chief officers of the districts and sub-districts, so I can see, Please?

Here is a list of divisional commissioners in Bangladesh. Sorry that I have not been able to find lists of chief officers of zilas and upazilas. Marco polo (talk) 02:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

DMV in south carolina website

I am trying to find the DMV SC website and Google's first search result page does not have a GOV website. I am pretty sure DMV SC does not use a .com website or even a .ORG website. If it is a .GOV website, could someone tell me what that is? thanksKushal^t 18:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC) [12] Kushal^t 18:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Found it at http://www.scdmvonline.com/DMVNew/default.aspx --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

So it is a dot com? I learned from .gov that some agencies have dot com websites. maybe DMV SC is one of them. thanks Kushal^t 18:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, the TLDs don't mean a damn thing anymore. The website of the governent of the city of Tallahassee is http://talgov.com/ .tv is supposed to be for the country of Tuvalu, but most people think it stands for television. —Keenan Pepper 23:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It makes the job difficult for people who tell not to trust dot com and dot org to be governmental agencies. I know sites like GoArmy gets a lot of criticism but I think it is well deserved. Why could they not just reserve the dot com and have it redirect to the dot gov? Is it too much work? Even old BBC has websites like bbc world service dot com which they advertise but these addresses redirect to the bbc.co.uk DMV SC could do the same thing. but i guess it involves politics and the desire to keep things separate from the federal government? Kushal^t 10:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'd like to point out that .co.uk, like .com, indicates a commercial site, just one that is in the UK rather than anywhere. Presumably the BBC uses this domain rather than .gov.uk to reflect its status as a quango rather than part of the government. --Anonymous, 06:00 UTC, December 31, 2007.

For what it's worth; here in Virginia we have a great government portal at http://www.virginia.gov/ but the DMV is at http://dmvnow.com/. Now that I look at more in depth, that is really an alias for https://www.dmv.virginia.gov. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I hope SC and TX DMV get the gov address too (respectively using dot com and dot us now) Kushal^t 22:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

South Carolina is NOTORIOUS for using inappropriate TLDs. I found that out with the "SC Statehouse Online". The full list can be found (amongst other places), here. Anyway, I HIGHLY doubt that the avoidance of .gov has to do with federalism, since minor towns, states, counties, townships, and agencies of them will use .gov because it does look trustworthy (I'm assuming). Also note that many states make use of their sub-ccTLDs, EG. http://www.state.nj.us/dmv 68.39.174.238 (talk) 02:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

December 30

Thought experiment

I allowed myself to indulge in a thought experiment (although instructed to make no changes permanent) by substituting the word "time" for the word "God" in a digital copy of the Holy Bible. Although I have not yet read the entire Bible through with this substitution in place I am wondering if anyone else may have or have done this with the Koran or other Holy works and if there are clearly any passages in which the substitution just does not fit? 71.100.6.70 (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"And time said, let there be light." I wouldn't count that as a fit. That's going to happen in every other holy work. God is talked about as an active entity who does thing. That won't fit with time. As a tangent, In the Baghavat Ghita, Shiva speaks the line "I am become time, shatterer of worlds" (alernatively translated by Oppenheimer as "I am become death"). risk (talk) 01:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The concepts of time in physics are quite complex. If you consider Einsteinian frames of reference or Eternalism / block time, you should gain some useful ideas. Consider also John 1:1, "In principio erat verbum" / "In the beginning was the Word" as per Latin Vulgate / KJV. It is a moot point to interpret the term "logos". --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I somehow think 'you shall have no other times before me' and 'You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your time am a jealous time, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me' doesn't fit either...Nil Einne (talk) 15:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There was Zurvanism... AnonMoos (talk) 05:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Such as in the Grim reaper being an icon for time versus time being an interpretation of God? 71.100.3.166 (talk) 02:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sonata in G Major (Haydn)

Hello. In Franz Joseph Haydn's Sonata in G Major, is there a deceptive cadence in bar 135-136? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 05:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Haydn wrote 7 sonatas in G major [13]. Which one of them were you enquiring about? -- JackofOz (talk) 07:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I am enquiring about Sonata in G Major Hob. XVI:27 III: Finale. --Mayfare (talk) 17:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

A score of an arrangement for bass recorder (!) of the Finale ("Theme and Variations") is online at the Werner Icking Music Archive.[14] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lambiam (talk • contribs) 20:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Men's Penis size

I often get spam which says in the subject "Make your's a 12 inch one". I am just wondering if any man's penis would penetrate fully into a women's body if its 12 inch. Does anyone here know what is the maximum size of penis which if had, would penetrate fully into a women's body? For example, you can say that "A women's penetratable space would be only 10 inches maximum for any women. If someone had 12 inches, two inches would be out" or you can say something else. Well, I agree that penetratable inches vary among women. But you could say in your answer for example that "90% of women have body that is not capable of accepting more than 9 inches" etc. Please help. I am afraid because of my small penis size. Well, at the same time, I don't plan to do anything to increase penis size even though mine is less than World average of 6 inches. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.23.177 (talk) 15:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

See Human penis size and Penis enlargement. --Drop Dead Ed (talk) 15:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Depending on the expected answer, the above question should be directed to the:

• Entertainment desk; when used for such purpose (including any tragical dysfunction of the equipment).
• Humanities desk; when an increase of humanity is to be genetically achieved.
• Mathematics desk; for any statistical data on the item.
• Language desk; when applied in the context of oral tradition.
• Science desk; in any quest for biological information.
• Computing desk; when the question pertains to temporary hardware, software or nowhere problems (in the case of the female gender).
• Archives; on the morning after the night before. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

(I am the one who posted this question): Thanks "Drop Dead Ed" for your reply. But, those two articles dont say information I want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.115.70 (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, 59.92. Without being a gynaecologist:

The vagina is a quite flexible organism. If you consider the uterus, you will be aware that normally it is the size of a fist, yet during pregnancy it can expand to accommodate a foetus (and, of course, twins, triplets, etc).

Similarly, the vagina during birth expands to allow the passage of the baby. Thus, under most circumstances, the female vagina is capable of accommodating itself to the required dimension.

The vagina, when the woman is not sexually excited has a length of some 3 inches / 7.5cm, but will lengthen to 4 inches / 10cm when aroused. This length further increases when the penis is inserted, reaching a length of approximately 6 to 9 / 15 to 22.5cm inches.

It becomes therefore understandable, that foreplay and gentle penetration is required. The numbers mentioned apply to females who have not as yet given birth. The enormous stretching of the muscular fibres during childbirth frequently results in some looseness of the vagina, which can be countered by exercises and tightening surgery.. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

An interesting topic, and to Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM, I believe he meant this in a scientific manner rather than humanities and certainly not computing. Skin and muscle is surprisingly stretchable due to a protein called Fibrillin (which is also the protein responsible in Marfan Syndrome). Although theoretically everything must have a limit to how much it can stretch before it reaches its elastic limit, practically no penis could ever reach this size in the context of skin and muscle. I doubt it is feasible to carry out an investigation into the matter either, unless (as Cookatoo.Ergo.ZooM suggested) you collect statistic data on the matter. Cyclonenim (talk) 23:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Then again, I realise I left the Scientific reference desk a few moments ago and this is posted in the Humanities desk, so perhaps he did mean it in that sense. I apologise. Cyclonenim (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

However if you read human penis size, you will see there is no evidence that 6 inches is the world average size. You should also be aware from the article there is no clear evidence a somewhat below average penis size has a significant negative effect on most partner's pleasure (particularly given the location of the most sensitive areas) and that width may be more important then length anyway. Also, you may be interested in reading orgasm which suggests clitoral stimulation may be more important then vaginal simulation anyway. In conclusion, I wouldn't worry if you penis size is below 6 inches. Of course all this only applies if you are heterosexual. BTW in response to your earlier question well the article does in fact mention that many women find stimulation of the cervix uncomfortable and it also mentions some of the stuff cockatoo mentions such as the fact that the vagina is generally able to accomodate penises of any size with proper arousal. Nil Einne (talk) 15:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Although the G spot and the Clit may be especially sensitive and indeed require stimulation for orgasm the larger the penis size the more surface area which is shared and sharing is probably the greatest basis for arousal; hence, greater awareness of sharing may be correlated with penis size. 71.100.3.166 (talk) 02:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Undercover cops...

From some american TV and movies it appears that the producers think that if directly asked "Are you a cop?" a police officer must disclose this fact. Surely this can't be true. I can't remember any examples of this in tv or movies but I'm pretty sure there are some. Can anyone a) confim this is not true and b) give me a reason why someone might think this is true.Shniken1 (talk) 17:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Defintly not, and most likely because there dumb. BonesBrigade 17:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not true at all, but it's a widely repeated urban legend that cops are somehow supposed to do their duty without ever lying. The justification for this belief seems to be that law officers are not allowed to "entrap" suspects; that is, essentially lead them to the crime and then bust them for it. The distinction between the two actions could be narrow sometimes, I guess. Matt Deres (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

As sususal, Snopes has this one covered. [15] --Drop Dead Ed (talk) 19:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

As an extension to this, does anyone know if the undercover policeman may expose himself to the hooker before any deal is struck? I have see fictional accounts where this is requested by the prostitute to prove the john isn't a cop. Rockpocket 05:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Postcodes in Upminster

Hey all, I need a list of all of the postcodes in Upminster so that I can distribute leaflets to everybody to promote my business, any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.182.217 (talk) 22:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how detailed the postcodes in Britain need to be, but it appears that Upminster is in the Romford postal district. Information about Romford codes is here: RM postcode area. Bielle (talk) 22:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• I need a full list of residential postcodes for the area --82.36.182.217 (talk) 23:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

A full list of UK postal addresses, including post codes, is supplied commercially by the Royal Mail in the Postcode Address File. I don't think that postcodes alone will help you with leaflet distribution, because our article on UK postcodes says that on average each individual postcode is shared by 14 properties. I doubt that a letter addressed to "The Householder, AA99 9AA" could even be delivered, in most cases. Gandalf61 (talk) 23:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Are there any free lists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.182.217 (talk) 00:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You might ask the Royal Mail if they offer mass distribution in a given area, whereby you supply them with, say 20,000 copies of whatever, along with a cheque for say £10,000, and they provide addresses and delivery. If the Royal Mail can't do it, I'm sure that there's a marketing firm that can, in a mechanised way that would be much more efficient than doing it by hand. Marco polo (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Are there Voters' Lists in England? You can get names and addresses from such lists in Canada. They used to be posted on telephone poles around election time. They are likely on-line now. Once you have the name and the address, Canadian post offices and libraries keep copies of Postal Code books where you can match your two lists. It is time consuming, but most of it will be otherwise free. Bielle (talk) 03:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You will find a list of all Upminster addresses, with postcodes, in your local postcode directory. This will be available at your local library, or you can purchase one from Royal Mail. (They used to be free.) If you have an old local Thomson's directory, all the local addresses with postcodes will be listed in the back, but sadly Thomson stopped doing this a few years ago.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Androboros

Question concerning the play "Androboros": Book Google has a scanned work entitled "Androboros" (<http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=SJwNAAAAQAAJ&dq=androboros&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=04crOMEg6M&sig=YoyGrCFPDxRPAFSKPGl_J82fWq0#PPT1,M1>), but the contents are nothing like what the articel describes. Does anyone know if there were two Androboroses, or if the description on the page belongs to another play? Thanx, 68.39.174.238 (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The scanned version is a play by Robert Hunter, published 1719, and has as a summary: "This is the first printed American play. The two persons ridiculed were political enemies of Governor Hunter--Colonel Francis Nicholson and Dr. William Vesey, Rector of Trinity Church, New York." There can be little doubt that this is meant to be the subject of the article. Presumably "Adolphe Phillipse" is the same person as "Adolphe Philipse", who I find described as a New York City aristocrat.[16] I did not find online references to Thomas Smithfield. Wat is needed is a key revealing which dramatis persona corresponds to which 18th century NYC politician. The discrepancy between the plot as described and the scanned book is indeed curious, as is the lack of a mention of Francis Nicholson, who, after all, is the main person ridiculed. I don't have access to the references given, but it may be instructive to see what they have to say about the play.  --Lambiam 17:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

December 31

Where do/did Yugoslavia's external and internal borders come from? When were they first drawn? By whom?

Hello, I have reading some articles about Yugoslavia, but I still have questions : where do the external borders, and the internal borders (of the republics and the autonomous provinces) come from? What I am certainly NOT trying to do is asking questions like "when did Vojvodina become part of Serbia", "when did Kosovo join Serbia", "when did Slovenia become independent",.... I have already found all that stuff on the web. What I mean is : when were those borders drawn for the first time? When were they imprinted on maps for the first time? And by whom? And based of what? For instance : I know that Kosovo was already a concept in the Ottoman era, but it was a lot bigger, containing parts of present-day Central Serbia as well (and even Skopje!).

What I have already found is : - the border between Bosnia-Hercegovina and Croatia is based on the old border of the Ottoman Empire, just like the border between Vojvodina and Central Serbia

I hope you understand my question, if not, I will reformulate. Many thanks, I hope someone can help me, because I have been looking for quite some time! Evilbu (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There are probably a several dozen or even hundreds of different segments of internal and external Yugoslav borders, each with its own history. In some cases, borders ultimately go back to property lines between adjacent estates of medieval nobles. They might, for example, have been drawn for the first time when a noble's estate was divided among heirs and marked off in a field with both heirs on horseback looking on. At a later point in history, one of those estates might have owed allegiance to the Habsburgs, another to the kings of Hungary or to the Ottoman sultans. Accounting for the first drawing of every segment of these borders would be a massive research task and could probably fill a book. Marco polo (talk) 01:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Marco's right -- it would take too long to discuss every border here, but for the answers you seek, check out the Historical Atlas of Central Europe by Paul Robert Magocsi. It explains all of the internal and external border changes in detail. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Albania's borders have been pretty much the same for centuries. I believe because of mountains on its landward side. Wrad (talk) 01:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, according to the above-mentioned atlas, Albania did not exist as a definite entity until 1913. Before then, the area we now call "Albania" was part of a few Ottoman districts. There were also some minor adjustments to the Albania-Yugoslavia boundary after WWI. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was referring to the time before the Ottoman Empire. The borders are old, even if they aren't very stable. Wrad (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The Ottomans ruled Albania for nearly 450 years! Before that, the area was fought over at times by Skanderbeg's short-lived Albanian state, feuding warlords, Stefan Dusan's Serbs, the Bulgarians, the Despotate of Epiros, the Venetians and the Byzantine Empire. So I'm not sure what you mean by the borders of Albania being particularly old. You are correct that throughout history, with the exception of the Ottoman period, the southern Dinaric Alps have tended to separate political entities, but it's common in Europe for mountains ranges to serve as borders. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. That was basically what I was trying to say. Mountains = borders. Wrad (talk) 02:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Elam, Pennsylvania

The article on ELAM is long, but interesting and contains many details. However, I was looking for some details about ELAM, PENNSYLVANIA. The Internet connections I tried were of no help and I've just been going 'round in circles, so to speak, trying to find info on the demographics and geographics of this small town in PA, USA. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you. Elteral3 (talk) 01:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You may want to try the Concord Township Historical Society at:

610-459-8911 or 610-459-8556

P.O. Box 152, Concordville, PA 19331

Contact: Virginia DeNenno, President

E-Mail: crdtwp@twp.concord.pa.us -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Check the Census entry for the town? That'll give you the demographics. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The Guaraní people and the Jesuit Reductions PRIMARY SOURCE

Hi, can anyone find primary source documents with different Points of View pertaining to the Guarani War. By POV, I mean different perspectives of the conflict, probably one with bias for the Guaraní, and one with bias for the Spanish and Portuguese authorities. If possible, it would be best if these documents were in English rather than Spanish or Portuguese. Thanks. 98.199.150.222 (talk) 02:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

After googling: See The Guarani under Spanish Rule in the Rio de la Plata. By Barbara Ganson (Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2003. xii plus 290 pp. $65.00).

Online under http://books.google.com, but far from complete. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 03:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

W. German coins: just for W. Germany or for all of post 1990 Germany?

Hello all,

Since the early 1990's I have been a coin collector. Over the last few months I've been trying to index and label my collection. Among that is a few West German coins (an example of a piece is here). All of the German coins in my collection were made in the 60's and 70's - years before East and West reunited. My question is then are coins made by West Germany before 1990 considered to be coinage for all of Germany after 1990 to 2002 (when the Euro replaced the Mark)? Because of this, I can't decide to label my German coins as Germany or West Germany. 65.184.40.8 (talk) 04:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

According to the articles in the German WP, the Mark (of the GDR / German Democratic Republic / East Germany) was legal tender until 30.06.1990 when the (West) German Mark became the currency in the then GDR on 01.07.1990. The exchange rate was deemed to be 1:1 and 2:1, depending on amount exchanged and the age of the citizen. Wages and prices were converted at par. Of course, this rate was far above the real rate and is still a matter of controversy.

The GDR ceased to exist on 03.10.1990 when it was united with the FRG / Federal Republic of Germany. The Euro was introduced on 01.01.2002 and replaced the German Mark.

See East German Mark and Deutsche Mark in the en.Wikipedia. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 05:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The simple answer is that there never was such a thing as "West Germany"; that was just a convenient nickname used for the Federal Republic of Germany at the time when "East Germany" also existed. For that matter, there wasn't an East Germany either; its real name was the German Democratic Republic, but people outside the Communist world avoided using that name on the grounds because it was not only long, but misleading.

When the country unified, the mechanism was that the Democratic Republic was dissolved and its member states were admitted as new states of the Federal Republic. So today's unified Germany is the same entity that was once known as West Germany, and naturally it kept using the same money (until the euro replaced it).

--Anonymous, 06:06 UTC, December 31, 2007.

In short, if you label your coins "Federal Republic of Germany", you can in good conscience place the Marks from before 1990 and those minted after the unification of Germany in the same category. Skarioffszky (talk) 11:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Is all economic regulation "socialism"?

As part of the economics wikiproject, I've been trying to clean up Criticisms of Socialism, which is pretty bad. One place I wanted to start was by distinguishing "Socialism" the ideology and economic system from "Nationalization." The article and the main article on Socialism makes no distinction and it's an important distinction because economists are critical of the ideology & economic system of Socialism, but aren't inherently opposed to the socialization of certain industries, such as healthcare, utilities, infrastructure, etc.. In fact, there seems to be a fair amount of support for such. In other words, criticism of Socialism as an economic system involving heavy nationalization needs to be distinguished from selective nationalization in Capitalist economies, which has broad support.

The question is: Do you think this is a meaningful distinction to warrant disambiguating Socialism from Nationalization (aka "socialization")? Do you consider public ownership of industries to be inherently "socialism" or is that just a POV term against public enterprise and regulation? Zenwhat (talk) 13:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The word socialism is used in several different ways. It is not a term with a single, universally accepted meaning. Certainly nationalization is a word with a clearer meaning. Nationalization is not the same thing as socialism. You will find some hardline economic liberals (known as "fiscal conservatives" in the United States) who describe any government regulation or involvement in the economy that they disapprove—such as nationalization—as "socialism", but in this case, socialism is a not very meaningful word used as a term of abuse reflecting a certain POV. (For example, these ideologues almost universally support the government's issuance of currency or laws mandating corporate personhood, both of which are cases of government involvement in the economy.) I assume that you are aware that we already have an article on Nationalization. I do not see a need for a disambiguation page linking it to Socialism, any more than I see a need for a disambiguation page linking, say, Central bank and Socialism. Marco polo (talk) 15:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There was plenty of economic regulation in the Middle Ages, without any particular "socialist" ideology in the modern sense. Protecting private economic interests is economic regulation, and every tariff on imports is also economic regulation of a sort... AnonMoos (talk) 16:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

William Bunce - At the Battle of Trafalgar

I am researching my family tree and know that a William Bunce (1750-1832) served on HMS Victory with Admiral Nelson and fought at the Battle of Trafalgar. He died in Stoke Demerell, Devon, close to the Naval town of Devonport and he even appears in the famous death scene picture of Nelson.

My maiden name is Bunce and I have previously ascertained that we have had a William Bunce (1784-1830) in our family - he died at Chalgrove, Oxon. Through my research I have since rectified a misconception that the two men were one and the same. What I would like to do now is find out whether or not these two men were related, one being the father of the other perhaps? The first censors available on-line was 1841, by which time both men were dead thus preventing me from checking out their particular details.

Can anyone please tell me (a) the best way to check whether or not these two men are related and (b) where both men were born. Also, are there any ancestors of either William Bunce in the Plymouth or Oxfordshire areas that might be able to swap family information with me. Thank you.

Betty Matthews: <email address removed to forestall spambots and such> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adscm (talk • contribs) 18:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You might try consulting a genealogy website, such as this one. Here is a forum devoted to Bunce family genealogy. Many, though not all, of the participants are American, but it is possible that your ancestor has American descendants who know more about him. They might also be able to offer research tips. Here is another page of Bunce resources. It is unfortunately not likely that you will find others with information on Bunce genealogy on a Wikipedia reference desk. Marco polo (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Try [17]. - CarbonLifeForm (talk) 20:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Benazir Bhutto's manner of death

I've seen a LOT of discussion in the news (specifically on CNN.com) over the last few days over the specifics as to exactly HOW Bhutto died (gunshot, shrapnel, falling, etc.), with discussion over whether there should be a post-mortem autopsy or not. I'm not opposed to anybody finding out or wanting to find out, I just don't understand why this particular question is front page news, even more front page than discussions as to who is to blame for the fatal attack. What are the stakes? Why is this top news? Does it matter? Is this just a way to "keep the story" alive, or does it have real implications? --67.180.134.53 (talk) 19:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Assume that Jesus had died from a heart failure on his way to Golgatha. What are the stakes? Why is this top news? Does it matter?

I guess, in the short run it may not have mattered. In the long run, the Man would have been forgotten or would have been seen as a charismatic preacher of but temporary importance.

We would live in an entirely different world.

And so will the Pakistanis, depending on the answers. And if a country with a stack of nuclear weapons sinks into civil war, you may know, what the stakes are. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Uh, sorry, don't get it. Obviously she was assassinated—does it matter exactly what led to the death itself? If so, why? Obviously I'm not asking about the import of the assassination itself; I'm asking why it matters exactly what about it killed her. If Jesus had been killed on the electric chair presumably Christians would wear little lightning bolts around their necks—the specific way he died is not important, it's the other circumstances. --67.180.134.53 (talk) 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

People want to know what Musharraf's role in the killing was. While an autopsy will not directly reveal that, the absence of an established cause of death allows the authorities a wider range of explanations. It may also thwart the possibility of establishing proof based on material evidence should it come to criminal prosecution of possibly responsible people.  --Lambiam 23:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, but how? I mean, a guy shot at her, and another guy set off a bomb. That seems well established. Why does knowing which of those two things actually killed her change anything? --67.180.134.53 (talk) 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to point out that I'm not exaggerating the focus of this given by CNN.com, here's the current lead story plug as I write this: Videos, photos and witnesses give clues to what happened in the chaotic seconds around the assassination attack on Benazir Bhutto. But still there are disputes over what killed her. Watch the video, see the photos, read the accounts and see if you can decide. Other video stories are things like Was Bhutto shot? They don't mean was she shot at, which is already well established. They mean, "did the guy shooting at her kill her, or did she die from the explosion?" But frankly I don't see why that question is the really important one to be asking, and none of the articles say anything about the stakes involved (e.g. "if she died by the explosion, it would imply X"). --67.180.134.53 (talk) 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

January 1

The Federation

What kind of government hirarchy does/did the Star Trek Federation have and can it serve as a realistic model for government now or in the future or would this require replicator and other such supporting technology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.3.166 (talk) 04:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The Night of the Vanities.

Can anyone provide more detailed information on the so-called, "Night of the Vanities? In the 14-1700s a Catholic monk or priest in Florence(?), Italy condemned all literature, music and works of art as evil distractions, and instigated a popular riot that burned a substantial number of the above.

Thank you. Quequeeg quinj7@hotmail.com