Talk:Ayumi Hamasaki

Sales

Please do not post false information. She is not the fourth highest selling music act from Japan.

There are many Japanese musicians (including solo female musicians) that have sold more records and singles than Ayumi Hamasaki.

I am using one of my favorites as an example, and giving an English reference dated back in 1989 when Hibari Misora died.

English website. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DA1E3EF936A15755C0A96F948260

She had sold around 70 million albums before the 1990's, and her sales of singles are considerably higher than Ayumi Hamasaki's. This was 20 years ago, and she has sold much more than that nowadays.

I mean no offense to Ayumi Hamasaki fans, but it is wrong to make such statements. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 12:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Those claims are sourced from an official sales counting site, so I'm going to let them stay there until you could prove that they are wrong. Aran|heru|nar 14:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think some editors should learn to read Japanese before posting references. Michiya Mihasi is Japan's highest selling musician with an estimate of 160 million records sold. He became the first Japanese musician to break the 100 million sales mark in 1983. This achievement is mentioned in his profile at Oricon.

Michiya Mihasi's artist page at Oricon. [1]

Many of the Oricon references have been misinterperted. 220.253.109.122 (talk) 09:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

You can learn what you little pumpkin Japanese called "etiquette". Go drink a cup of tea. Aran|heru|nar 18:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

That was a little rude, I'm sorry. Even if Hibari Misora did sell more than Ayumi did, she's long dead now. Ayumi is still alive. That should count for something. Plus, Ayumi still sold a lot so she should still be considered one of the top-selling Japanese female artists... but I see that somebody already did the honors and slipped that in the lead. It says she is one of the most popular pop singers, and the fourth best-selling Japanese artist in history. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 19:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, I misunderstood for a bit there. Let me catch myself now, I thought Mr. Anonymous was trying to dispute the claim that she is the best-selling Japanese singer. Now I see that nobody said such a thing. He actually said that she is not the fourth best-selling singer in Japan. I went and checked out the sources that he provided. However, I believe that the list of the best-selling singers only counts those that are still living. Otherwise, there'd be people from way back and then Hamasaki and Amuro would be at around number twenty, and then the top five would be people who've long since decomposed. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 19:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Lady Galaxy. By the way, I never removed how many records Ayumi has sold. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 19:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Right, but currently it's not possible to edit this article at all. But you're welcome. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 03:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It is good to see an intelligent response for once, and not some rapid fan wanting to protect some statement. 220.253.109.122 (talk) 09:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

See the Japanese wikipedia's article about the late Mihashi. He had gained remarkable industrial success in the latter half of 1950s and the former half of 1960s, the era Japan hadn't any hit parade. Oricon, the most eminent Japanese record chart started publishing in January 1968. Like the late Hibari Misora,however, his popularity as a recording artist had somewhat declined in the '70s and '80s. It is natural that statement of Oricon indicates different results--- zoizoiz2 03:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That is not what it says at all (furthermore, it is just another Wikipedia article) It states that he reinvented himself in the 1970's and gained popularity with people of all ages, earning the nickname Mitchie. It then says that his loud voice is still popular. Oricon is just a marketing company, with around 2000 retail partners (which does not incude many of the major retailers) and do not receive sales data from the record labels. There are other companies in Japan, which provide the same service, however they are partners with different outlets (around 1500, per company) The only companies that know how many records an artist is selling/shipping, are the record labels that sign them. 220.253.40.207 (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Hibari Misora indeed had sold around 70 million records. But Ayumi Hamasaki is the fourth highest "CD" selling musician from Japan. Also Oricon only keep track of physical CD/DVD albums. — ■~∀SÐFﾑｻ~■ =] ^{Babashi? antenna?} 05:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Records is short for recordings, it includes any format. Hibari Misora has sold around 100 million records to date, she had sold around 70 million records 20 years ago! I would track down sales data for artists like YMO, who have sold much more than Ayumi, but there is no need. Do not post misleading information into articles. 220.253.146.104 (talk) 20:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no source that the mid-20th century's Japanese legendary singer's singles have sold 30 million units since her death in 17 years ago. There is no deceased artist who has received such a tremendous commercial success after he or she died. If she has really sold such a enormous amounts of singles and albums after her death, her name must have appeared on the Japanese record chart frequently like other modern successful living musicians such as B'z, Mr. Children, Dreams Come True and Hamasaki.

Furthermore, in another statement by Yamaha Music Foundation written in the early 2000s, Columbia Music Entertainment (the record label that Hibari Misora had signed to) have announced that she has sold 40 million units of albums and singles since her debut in the late 1940s.[2] Compared with the New York Times' article which was written in 1989, it seems that this newer Japanese information is more reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoizoiz2 (talk • contribs) 10:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That article from Yamaha music is about "the popularity of Hibari Misora does not decline after 10 years of her death" and mentions that her record sales since after her death have been almost 40 million. The second sentence from that source 没後10年を迎えてもなお衰えを知らぬ人気 contradicts everything you said, and the article actually supports my statement, thanks! In addition, her book 20世紀の宝石美空ひばり大全集 mentions she has sold more than 80 million records [3]. I also took the time to find a reference for the record sales of Kazuhiro Moriuchi who is another Japanese musician that has more record sales than Ayumi Hamasaki [4]. Please don't destroy the article. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 02:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I restored the information you removed because Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. We don't care if she is the sixth alive laser disc female best seller or the twentieth best selling recording artist of all times in Japan. We only care about what we can prove and what we cannot. The Oricon article indeed confirms she is the fourth according to their account, which may (as it is apparent) differ with other sources. Therefore, the citation can stay in the article by making a simple clarification: that it is according to Oricon's recount. Articles about games are a good example of this: a reviewer can give a game 10, another a 5, and both are right, as long as you can add a reference for both. You don't remove the "This is the best game ever made" review just because you found another reviewer saying "This game is good but XXX and YYY are better games". Here is the same: We can demonstrate what the article says is not invented by us, but instead conjectured by a reliable source.

Because of undue weight, you can add, in the sales or achievements section of the article, note that although Oricon claims her to be all that, there are other artists considered to have sold more, giving examples with each respective reference. This way, we are presenting both points of view and leaving the reader make his or her own conclusions.

What I don't like is that the leading has too much information that can be put somewhere else. While it is necessary to note her success, it is not to say every single achievement made in terms of rankings. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

This is vandalism known as "Adding known inaccuracies". Those Oricon articles do not say that mate, there was a source provided from the same website to counter-point that information. In addition, this is the English wikipedia and as such, English references are preferred for verifiability (which have already been provided to counter-point misinterpreted non-English references. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 03:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but we accept sources in any languages as long as they come from reliable sources. You presented one in English, yes, but which is not of equal quality because yours talk about the achievements of a singer who passed away and the other the achievements of five active groups (B'z, Mr. Children, Southern All Stars, Ayumi Hamasaki and Dreams Come True). Can't you see the pattern there? Oricon is a reliable source, as far as I know, and from what I read, it is pretty clear that in that page they are sorting and giving Ayumi Hamasaki the fourth place. However, since you seem to know a lot about Oricon, what does, for you, the table mean (you know, the 別後売上枚... one). Why are you so sure they aren't talking about active artists or modern music in that table? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, if you want I can bring someone who really knows Japanese to the discussion to mediate, and someone who knows Wikipedia policies and guidelines to explain who is correct and who is not. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm a native Japanese speaker. So please do point out to me and everyone else where it says that those are the five highest selling Japanese musicians (particulary where it says living/active) and then tell everyone how a news article by the new york times is not a quality reference. The table says "number of sales by other artists" so it would be very interesting to know where you are "verifying" this information. In addition, you are another editor that seems to have trouble reading context, as I never said non-English sources are not accepted on the English Wikipedia. I said they are preferred for verifiability. Maybe you should try reading the policy link you provided. Particulary this sentence "so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." I know my English is not that bad. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 05:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Copy edit?

Does this article really need copy editing? I went and cleaned a few things up, at least half of the article makes sense to me now. I removed the tag. I'm still a bit confused, however, as to what should be italicized and what shouldn't. I italicized all the song and album titles in the lead, but what about the rest? ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 19:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Cultural Impact

The "Cultural Impact" section is based on opinion, isn't it? Because it's difficult to say whether or not Hamasaki really is a fashion leader in Japan...I mean, it's not a hard fact. Also, calling her music videos "innovative" is rather opinionated too, no? Thanatous (talk) 01:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The fashion leader part was clear to me, I think whoever added that part is trying to say that she inspired lots of high school girls over there and she creates the trends that they follow. She is featured in a ton of magazines (I believe she does, or did, have a special section right in the first few pages of Vivi packed with recent photos and a journal entry) and won awards for her fashion sense. But I think the fact that it says her music videos are "innovative" does violate NPOV, so I removed that part. Though I still don't think we should keep "she is known for her expensive music videos", I mean most celebrities do make and use pretty costly stuff. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 03:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

True, but her videos are really expensive. In fact, some of the most expensive in the world, and the most expensive from Japan. See the list. Aran|heru|nar 14:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The wording was a bit awkward. I'm thinking we should change it, but at the same time I'm not sure how anybody would rewrite that. I feel the same way about some parts of the article, and articles on other Japanese celebrities as well. Saying that they're expensive is just tacky to me, and then the next paragraph points out that she's of high distinction because she made the list for the most expensive music videos. I don't know, maybe when this article is unprotected we should clean some things up a bit. It's excessively wordy in some parts. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 19:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for all the multiple responses, but I would like to add that cleanup would probably bring this (and other articles on Asian celebrities) up to good article or even featured article status. They're still confusing the way they are right now. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 ^Refill/lol 19:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Page protetced

There seems t be an edit war on this article, so I have protected the page for two weeks, so that only administrators can edit it. In keeping with policy and tradition, and because I am a rouge admin, I have protected the wrong version.

While the page is protected, please discuss the article and try to each a consenus. If anyone believes that there is a consensus for a particular change, you may use the {{editprotected}} tag beside a description of the change you want made: that will summon an admin to review it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)