User talk:Ephyon

First Issue: Mahou and Majutsu

Definition

Mahou: Miracles. Impossible occurrences that defy all laws of nature. Things like making something out of nothing, resurrection, time-travel, dimension-hopping. What most people think when they hear the word Magic. In the TYPE-MOON world, exceedingly rare stuff.

Majutsu: Much more restrictive working of spellcraft. A determined, ordered system with definite physics and laws running under the world’s laws and following principles such as give-and-take. If I were to stretch it a bit, closer to the Fullmetal Alchemist concept of “Alchemy” than what most people consider magic.

Known translations

Moonlit World
Mahou: Magic
Majutsu: Sorcery

Mirror Moon/Revolve
Mahou: Sorcery
Majutsu: Magic

I asked about this, look at Ryuusoul’s second post.

Arai
Mahou: Magic
Majutsu: Thaumaturgy

That’s the gist of it. In reality, any term which is normally used for spellcasting could apply. Magic, Sorcery,Wizardry, etc.

Please vote using the following formula:

• Mahou: [Choice]
• Majutsu: [Choice]
• Reasoning, preference, why not a certain term, related ramblings, etc.

Votes

---

• Mahou: Sorcery. If accepted, in synonymy with True Magic
• Majutsu: Magic

Reasoning: Primarily, it’s what Mirror Moon/Revolve choose for their translations, meaning that it’s what the majority of any upcoming fanbase will enter in contact with first. Following that, Nasu has established the word Magus in roman characters for Majutsu users, which I think goes better with magic. I’m not averse to going with True Magic, or at least using it in synonymy with Sorcery for Mahou if the voting leads to that, because I do consider the meaning to be closer to what’s intended.

While Thaumaturgy actually does fit perfectly in the semantic sense, it really just seems like an unnecessarily obscure term when there are more accessible and equally effective terms at hand. Finally, I share Ryuusoul’s view on “Wizardry”, it’s a predominantly masculine term with only male practitioners (Wizards), while “Magi” is more open to both genders, and Sorcery actually has separate forms for both. Ephyon 23:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think that miracle is probably the English word most evocative of the "true magic" concept, and would hence be the most accessible to the average reader. We could then use magic/sorcery/wizardry/whatever to describe the "magical technique" idea, either interchangeably or to make more minute distinctions such as that between Rin's mechanical (wizard-like) spellcasting and Shiro's more instinctual (sorcerous) talents.
  Basically, while the semantic differences between sorcery, magic, wizardry, thaumaturgy, etc. are all very minor and only a hardcore fantasy or mythology geek would distinguish between them, everyone understands the impact intended by "Good lord, it's a miracle!".
  On a final note, this might be better done on a talk page than on your main user talk, since someone may actually need to speak to you about something other than this. --tjstrf talk 23:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The problems with the word “miracle” as a general denominator are as follows:

• It has a tremendously predominant religious connotation. In fact, the textbook definition is “something wonderful brought by divine intervention”.
• It has no semantic correlation to the original Japanese term, which is the word they normally use for all kinds of spells.
• It really holds very little if any relationship with spellcasting as a whole.
• Nasu’s Mahou isn’t very close to what a normal person would call a miracle.
• It’d be a mess to relate to it’s users. What would you call Aoko? A “miracle worker”?

Basically, the word miracle is only used in addition to mark the fact that Mahou is an impossibility made reality. Using it as a real denominator would be completely out of place, in my opinion at least. Furthermore, creating personal distinctions like Rin/Shirö’s style differences would be original fiction and research. While I know where you’re coming from, no such distinction is ever made in any material.

Also, don’t worry about anyone needing to talk to me specifically here. That hasn’t happened… ever, and I’ve been around for a while. --Ephyon 00:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Some good points, but there will be similar complaints with any other term. Sorcery, for instance, is both insufficiently differentiated from magic in common usage (where it's just a fancy synonym) and by dictionary denotation is performed by demonic intervention and inherently evil. Nasu's use of the term is one of his own invention, so finding an exact synonym is not a reasonable expectation. Even if we went for a straight transliteration, mahō, it would only be accurate usage within the context of type-moonian jargon.

And to clarify, I wasn't suggesting we OR a non-existent formal distinction between sorcery and magic, just that if the words were being used as equivalents (rather than to describe two different ideas) the subtle connotative difference could help in writing accurately. Whatever route we go with, it would probably be better to get some input besides just the two of us arguing back and forth.

And finally, that's quite surprising. I get people posting on mine constantly. Maybe not every day, but at least several a week when I'm active. --tjstrf talk 06:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

• Maho: Magic
• Majutsu: Sorcery

Reasoning: These seem closest to me. "Sorcery" has more wordly or technical connotations to me, while "magic" seems more mystical sparkly mysterious, or less explainable. I don't know what you would call someone who uses magic, though. A magician? That seems cheesy, at least in most cases. (EDIT: I guess magus would work.) Voretus 15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Mahou: Sorcery
• Majutsu: Magic or Magick

Reasoning: I am leaning to "magic" as "majutsu" Mainly because we already have "magus" for "majutsushi" and "Mage's Association" for "majutsu kyoukai". One problem with this, however, is that magic also occasionally refers to "illusion/state magic/sleight of hand", which is not what majutsu is all about.

One suggestion I can present is to use magick instead (or alternately). "Magick" by definition is "a paranormal practice that is not capable of producing 'miracles' or violating the physical laws of the universe", which I think is exactly what majutsu in Type-Moon universe means. I do think, however, that this term is a little bit occult.

As for the other one, I think we need to establish a somewhat commonly used word in English as "mahou" is pretty common in Japanese. "Sorcery" it is. - Scroogey McDucky 03:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• Mahou: Magic
• Majutsu: Thaumaturgy

Reasoning: Terek here, sorry about not logging in but I'm protesting the unfair in-discriminate ban placed on all machines spanning several cities around where I live. My speech pattern should be signature enough for you lot to figure out who I am anyway, hah. In any matter, I'm putting up a vote for Arai's conventions, "Magic" for Mahou and "Thaumaturgy" as Majutsu for the following reasons.

Plausibility.

From what Nasu has described of majutsu as the "science of magic", basically using organized method to emulate the miracles told of in legend and myth. Majutsu converts one source of energy into matter or another force of energy, that is, Prana into weapons as in the case of Shirou or into a curse as with Rin. It's simmilar to how Chemists and Physicists work with their own respective fields, and as such, I think a "scientific" term detatched from common perceptions of magic (sorcery and wizardy might be the study of the sorcerous and of wizards, but it's got inherent connotations with magic we can't eradicate from common usage). Since "thaumaturgy" is so obscure, it's the perfect word to use for this kind of scientific-sounding sorcerous science. Magic, of course, because it's commonly used as a translation for mahou and that it's accurate in the sense of doing the impossible, without the religious connotations.

Uniqueness.

I was gravely offended with the Excel Saga article got FA status, since I consider it a trashy mess and the product of a core group of elite fanboys. I'd rather we distance the FSN article, which I am proud to say is very well done, by using refreshing conventions and terms that distance the FSN title from more generic fantasy games and anime. Clearly, FSN is worlds apart from such titles as Zero no Tsukaima (not to bash) and anything to drive a fine, unique signpost into the ground that says, "this is Fate/stay night, not some stock show" is well warranted.

I'll address the other conventions in due time. 169.237.214.139 18:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't thaumaturgy more identical to "religious miracle" rather than "science"? Also, I personally find it weird to use an obscure-sounding word for a practice that is actually more common in said universe. - Scroogey McDucky 00:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Terek again, I actually didn't consider the definition of thaumaturgy when I suggested it, I was merely looking for a kind of word that bequeathed scientific, or rather methodological connotations onto the word - in this context, thaumaturgy sounds perfect for what we should use for "mahou", so maybe sorcery for majutsu? 68.189.78.113 19:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Assuming your still working on this...

• Mahou: Sorcery
• Majutsu: Magic or Thamaturgy

Resoning: Most people coming from the English speaking wold will likely get their first taste of the world from Mirror Moon's translation. Whether people like this or not, it is almost certainly inevitable and swapping the use of what is sorcery and magic in their translation on the page will only confuse those wishing to learn more about the world. We do not want to confuse anyone if it can be helped.

'Thamaturgy: I made a possible exception here because while it is an obscure term, it isn't used by Mirror Moon and it's likely that some are familiar with it because of their academic research or from playing White Wolf games, and to a lesser extent other RPG systems, and might atleast have an idea what it means. However it still may be best not to use it if you think enough people might be confused.

As for the meaning of the term itself, it is more in line with psuedo-science than religion given the history. Theurgy is what is more related to divine magic. Jinnai 14:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Second Issue: Maryoku

Definition

The energy used for spellcasting. Magic power, energy, chakra, MP, chi, Athena’s saints’ cosmos, what is OVER NINE THOUSAND. You get the idea.

It is divided into energy existent in the environment (Mana) and energy generated internally by living things (Od). However, the usage of Maryoku when describing processes related to spellcasting is much more predominant than distinguishing between the two. Meaning we can’t weasel out by just saying either Mana or Od depending on the situation.

Notes

The word literally means “Magic Energy” or “Magic Power”

“Mana”, in it’s dictionary definition, actually is both environmental and personal energy, but Nasu has specifically limited the usage of the term to the former, so that’s a no go.

Known Translations

Moonlit World: Magic(al) Energy
Arai: Prana
Mirror Moon/Revolve: Magic(al) Energy

Once again, I asked at MM/Revolve.

Votes

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• Choice: Magic Energy

Yes, it’s somewhat simple and unrefined, but functional, and most importantly, closest to the original meaning. A writer with a moderate amount of skill can phrase things so as not to constantly repeat “Magic Energy” over and over and the term can be shortened to simple “energy” if it’s necessary to use it continuously.

My view on Prana is the same as the one for Thaumaturgy. It fits, but it’s an unnecessarily uncommon term. Ephyon 23:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• Magical energy

I think "magical energy" works better than "Magic Energy". The latter sounds like a role-playing game, which usually isn't that bad in-universe, but I think it's a bit too much. Using "magical" as an adjective sounds better and captures the meaning of the word more. "Prana" is just silly. Are all the magicians in the Type-Moon world going to start practicing hardxxxxcore yoga? Voretus 15:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Choice: Prana

Unlike thaumaturgy, Prana is being used in multiple works and we should propogate the concept of it a lot more since "mana" as popularised by Richard Garfield's MTG isn't correct. The Japanese understand Prana and the subsets of Odic force and Mana but it's uncommon in the West because, apparently, some European authors don't head over to our shores for some reason (think A Dog of Flanders). I vote in favour of Prana because it's short, resembles Mana to a certain extent so people will recognize it, and most of all is correct and un-superflous. It fits with Thaumaturgy as being foreign but at the same time is familiar because it resembles the word Mana - only an idiot wouldn't be able to bridge the connection. 169.237.214.144 22:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• Choice: Prana and Magic energy

Seriously, can't we simply use both alternately? I get te feeling that "prana" is a more technical term and "magical energy" can be used casually. - Scroogey McDucky 00:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Magic(al) Energy

It is used in two sources, and as mentioned for the other translation, most newcomers will be more familiar with the Mirror Moon versions. Jinnai 14:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Image category

I have just created and populated Category:Type-Moon images for the purpose of tracking all the images related to the various Type Moon articles. In the process, I also attempted to clean up the various images, so that they at least all had a nominal amount of copyright information. Some day they're all going to need rationales as well, frighteningly enough.

Since this required nearly 150 exceptionally tedious edits over an hour or so, I'm absolutely positive that I screwed the description of at least one image up where I did not catch my mistake. So if you see any edits I have made to image pages that seem incorrect to you, rest assured, they are.

I'm just notifying you of this since I am unaware of any centralized discussion area for type-moon's stuff (except maybe Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual novels) and figured I should tell someone what I was doing. --tjstrf talk 10:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)